Politics

"Just Jeepin'" (macintux) 08/19/2020 at 15:10 • Filed to: None

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This interview is terrifying and compelling. Stuart Stevens and Michael Grunwald talk about where the GOP stands and what it stands for.

Vote in November, whether it works or not.

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ttyymmnn > Just Jeepin' 08/19/2020 at 15:16

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See: The Lincoln Project

The founders of the Lincoln project have spent over 200 years electing Republicans. But now, they’ve sparked a nationwide movement with a singular mission: To defeat Donald Trump and Trumpism.

HammerheadFistpunch > Just Jeepin' 08/19/2020 at 15:17

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The GoP is a shell of what people think it still is. 

Just Jeepin' > HammerheadFistpunch 08/19/2020 at 15:19

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Very little is scarier than a desperate, dying predator.

jminer > HammerheadFistpunch 08/19/2020 at 15:21

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I can’t believe people still believe the ‘good for the economy’ garbage anymore. The last three republican presidents have had major market crashes on their watch ...

The Republican party is only good for the mega-rich and corporations wanting to make more money off the backs of their workers.

Just Jeepin' > jminer 08/19/2020 at 15:31

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I still remember my shock and dismay when we were estimated to be a decade away from paying off the debt, and Bush the second wanted major tax cuts as soon as he was sworn in , and Greenspan testified in Congress  that paying off the debt in full might not be entirely positive, giving cover for Democrats and Republicans to support the tax cut.

Granted, 9/11 would have blown a hole in the plans anyway, but for one moment in time the future seemed like we could actually build a stable footing for our long-term finances, and then Greenspan and Bush took it away.

and 100 more > Just Jeepin' 08/19/2020 at 15:31

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Ironically, the Democrats , w hich have been sliding past Centrism, are now far more Right than they ever have been .

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Just Jeepin' 08/19/2020 at 15:31

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https://kalispell.craigslist.org/cto/d/columbia-falls-1980-jeep-10-plow-truck/7180370017.html

Hey, you like J-10's right?

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Just Jeepin' 08/19/2020 at 15:33

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good people letting evil happen

...

I keep coming back to: What does the party stand for? Four years ago, 90 percent of Republicans would say personal responsibility, character counts, strong on Russia, fiscal sanity, legal immigration, free trade. But now the party’s 100 percent against all these things.

...

I’ll never wonder again how 1938 happened in Germany. The cowardice is contagious. I think there’s a sort of conspiracy of cowardice—when everyone’s a coward, you don’t feel like a coward. That’s why these Republicans resent Mitt Romney. He reminds them that they don’t have to be cowards, and it makes them feel bad.

...

The inability to imagine Trump has always been his greatest advantage. Normal people expect people who are acting abnormally to revert to normality. Trump understands that and he’s not a normal person. With the United States government, you’ve given Tony Soprano the paving contract and you’re acting shocked that he doesn’t seem interested in getting the road paved.

Just Jeepin' > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 08/19/2020 at 15:34

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I’d prefer an M715 (ragtop ftw) but a clean J-10 has its own appeal...but I’d never eagerly buy a former plow vehicle. Too much stress on the frame/dash/etc.

fintail > HammerheadFistpunch 08/19/2020 at 15:35

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Funny how the party of Ike became the party of deconstructivist shitbags and grifters. OK, not funny, sad.

But I am sure it will all trickle down any minute now.

Just Jeepin' > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 08/19/2020 at 15:37

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What continues to depress me is the knowledge that no matter what happens in November, the precedent is set: almost half of American voters are willing to support a brutal, incompetent demagogue.

Imagine what will happen when we get someone worse than him who actually can get shit done.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Just Jeepin' 08/19/2020 at 15:43

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It is terribly depressing. I’m hopeful that he just gets crushed; that every swing state falls to the other party, and even a couple that lean red. I understand the “give him a shot, how bad can it be mentality” of many disaffected voters in 2016. The ones who have stuck by him through all this is what’s really scary (maybe it’s easier than we think in their own self-created echo chambers).

Dead_Elvis, Inc. > fintail 08/19/2020 at 15:44

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This rain is kinda warm, and yellow. And it smells funny.

It must be that trickle-down effect working its magic.

jminer > Just Jeepin' 08/19/2020 at 15:45

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For a country like the US national debt isn’t a big deal as we’re the world’s reserve currency. That doesn’t mean we should just spend it all on Billionaires and defense contractors though.  If we’re going to spend a ton of money lets at least do it on things that will benefit the general population like infrastructure or a social safety net.

Just Jeepin' > jminer 08/19/2020 at 15:48

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I’m fine with debt as a tool; hell, I think we should be paying nearly everyone to just stay home for 2 months.

But the deeper the hole we dig, the harder it is to spend it on things we actually need in a major emergency.

MrSnrub > Just Jeepin' 08/19/2020 at 15:49

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On the bright side, the people who unwittingly created Trump’s GOP are being welcomed into the Democrats, so we will never have to suffer the horror of not having a crypto-racist reactionary war crimes party. With God’s grace and some Bush-style “strategery” they will defeat the openly racist reactionary war crimes party and we can return to the golden days of George W Bush.

DipodomysDeserti > Just Jeepin' 08/19/2020 at 15:53

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Imagine what will happen when we get someone worse than him who actually can get shit done.

Well, it already happened. Scary part is most people failed to notice. That’s the real worry of mine. Trump hasn’t even come close to Bush & Co., LLC.

Just Jeepin' > MrSnrub 08/19/2020 at 15:54

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More like a marriage of convenience. The GOP rebels are, for the most part, supporting the Democratic Party this year without joining it.

As much as I’d instantly vote for, say, Romney over Trump, I wouldn’t vote for Romney over Biden, and I don’t think Romney would ever find a happy home with the Democrats.

(Hell, I’d vote for Cruz over Trump. He may be someone I oppose, but at least he lacks the effective demagoguery/cult of personality that’s so dangerous with Trump.)

Just Jeepin' > DipodomysDeserti 08/19/2020 at 15:56

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Like Stuart says in the interview, I think Bush had a shot at building something better than today’s GOP . He surrounded himself with garbage, though, and then 9/11 happened.

jminer > Just Jeepin' 08/19/2020 at 15:56

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Yep - and that’s basically what the Federal Reserve Chair Powell said

“ This is the time to use the great fiscal power of the United States to do what we can to support the economy and try to get through this with as little damage to the longer-run productive capacity of the economy as possible”

He was telling congress to do it’s damn job and for the republicans to stop obstructing and fucking govern.

MoCamino > Just Jeepin' 08/19/2020 at 15:59

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I saw this article earlier today. The author voiced exactly how I feel about the situation . I’ve been a moderate conservative all of my adult life. But the garbage Trump is selling isn’t conservatism .

There is a lot I don’t agree on with Biden. He’s committed some pretty big verbal gaffes in the past. But at least his behavior doesn’t scream middle-school bully. I feel like I could have an intelligent conversation with him about the things we disagree on and at least agree to disagree in a friendly manner . Trump would be m ore likely to start calling me names and throwing insults and bragging about his supposed success in the business world. (What is it, seven bankruptcies?)

The man is a rich, spoiled, bully that has gotten where he is by walking on anyone he needed to.  He needs to be stopped before he does more damage than he has.

MrSnrub > Just Jeepin' 08/19/2020 at 16:05

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More like a marriage of convenience. The GOP rebels are, for the most part, supporting the Democratic Party this year without joining it.

That may be their intention - defeat the GOP badly enough that Trumpism is forever discredited, so they can go take it back over and return it to being the party of trickle-down and invading Iran or whatever. But I guarantee you that’s not going to happen. The Republicans will be completely taken over by Q-anon lunatics whether they win or lose in November. The never-Trumpers will have no other option but to try to infiltrate the Democrats and drag it to the right, and there’s a good chance they’ll succeed. It sucks.

My personal hope is that the Trump GOP withers off into irrelevancy and a true progressive/worker’s   party breaks off from the left wing of the Democrats, but that’s just a fantasy right now. I’m very pessimistic.

fintail > and 100 more 08/19/2020 at 16:06

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The Ds of today would be Rs ~50 years ago, and the Rs today would be led by George Lincoln Rockwell ~50 years ago.

Mid Engine > fintail 08/19/2020 at 16:07

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Winning can really wear you out

LastFirstMI is my name > Just Jeepin' 08/19/2020 at 16:10

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I agree with almost every comment here, which makes me nervous. Echo chambers are always bad. Trump makes it easy to ignore why some people voted for him (Besides the appeal of fascism I guess). Shouldn’t we have a rational immigration system instead of our current non-system that allows tremendous abuse of immigrants at the expense of them and citizen workers alike, for the benefit of corporate profits?

Not defending Trump, I’m ready to join a militia the second he declares the election invalid and  settles in for terms two through five. I’m just trying not to sink to his level.

Just Jeepin' > LastFirstMI is my name 08/19/2020 at 16:17

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At this point I have exactly one priority: dump Trump. Ok, two: survive the pandemic.

I agree, there are many structural flaws in our country, and the need to import illegal immigrants in bulk to keep agriculture afloat is a particularly nasty one . I’m just not smart enough to know how to fix them.

fintail > Mid Engine 08/19/2020 at 16:20

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I’m really getting tired of it.  So much winning, every day, a new win.

DipodomysDeserti > Just Jeepin' 08/19/2020 at 16:22

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He surrounded himself with neoconservative GOPers, who knew exactly how to do what they wanted to do. 9/11 (and Katrina) was  a godsend for those guys. Disaster capitalism at its finest. Now they’re pissed that Trump pulled back on the globalism, setting them back a decade. The Presidency is mostly for show. It’s the people pulling the strings behind the scenes that get things done. Thankfully Trump has mostly inept people that nobody likes pulling the strings. That wasn’t the case with Bush, they got a lot of awful stuff done. Covid ain’t got nothing on how many people that regime killed.

duurtlang > fintail 08/19/2020 at 16:27

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The mainstream Ds of today would be considered (mild) right wing conservatives in most other first world countries. There does not seem to be an equivalent for the Rs of today,  they seem like a Monty Python invention.

CobraJoe > LastFirstMI is my name 08/19/2020 at 16:33

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I agree with almost every comment here, which makes me nervous. Echo chambers are always bad.

I’m not sure I’d call Oppo an echo chamber, there is surprisingly little of “Yeah, I agree!” type of comments, most add in some additional thoughts or opinions.

(Definitely unlike most of the pro-trump posts I see on facebook, where the responses are often “I AGREE!” or “PRAY FOR TRUMP!” or a derogatory comment about the “libs” )

Shouldn’t we have a rational immigration system instead of our current non-system that allows tremendous abuse of immigrants at the expense of them and citizen workers alike, for the benefit of corporate profits?

That’s perhaps the most frustrating thing about the current “Conservatives vs Liberals” environment. For most of the big ticket issues, the overwhelming majority is for logical and reasonable changes and fixes . The problem comes when it is only described to one side or the other as something far more radical and potentially life changing if not outright “dangerous”.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > Just Jeepin' 08/19/2020 at 16:41

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Really? I find that hard to believe. Romney (despite CNN’s non-stop hazing) was a straight up centrist and successful ex-governor of Blue-y Blue State. Scandal free and literally an Eagle Scout...
As squeaky clean a candidate as has ever run for office  and yet he couldn’t get to first base with the MSM.

If you’re telling me you’d not vote for a great resume over a pre-onset guy who literally doesn’t know what state he’s in most days? That’s deeply confusing to me.  I can see the “anybody but Trump” angle, but I’m confused why a stronger resume wouldn’t win out.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > MrSnrub 08/19/2020 at 16:42

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Polls say Biden’s way ahead.  What could go wrong?

f86sabre > ttyymmnn 08/19/2020 at 16:42

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The Lincoln Project folks have been very clever in how they are going after Trump. They are trying to get into his head as opposed to swaying voters. That said, they are also part of the machine that got him in office to begin with. They had to know that this was going to be a shit show. 

ttyymmnn > f86sabre 08/19/2020 at 16:47

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I always expected there would be some buyer’s remorse by some part of the GOP. I just hoped it would have happened sooner. And as long as Mitch McConnell remained up Trump’s backside, there would be little pushback. People like him are just too drunk on power to give up the liquor now. 

f86sabre > MoCamino 08/19/2020 at 16:47

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This. I think I could have a beer and a reasonable talk with any President from Ford to Obama. I’d be comfortable having them in my house for dinner. I don’t feel that way about Trump. Some people say that you don’t have to like the guy who gets the job done, but I wouldn’t hire him to paint a fence or manage my property (what he is supposed to be good at). A bully who consistently exaggerates, bullies, disrespects and spreads falsehood. How can you entrust the direction of the US to someone like that?

Just Jeepin' > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 08/19/2020 at 16:48

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Good point. Biden certainly isn’t my preferred candidate, and I think in a normal year I’d be open to considering Romney.

I think at this point my revulsion to all things GOP has reached the point where I can’t in good conscience vote for any of them. Even Romney, who has taken a stand against Trump, took a very long time to do so and only voted for one of the two articles of impeachment, and has voted mostly with him.

He may not be a primary enabler, but neither has he pulled a Gandalf in Moria.

LastFirstMI is my name > Just Jeepin' 08/19/2020 at 16:52

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Sounds like you’re perfectly  qualified to be President!

f86sabre > ttyymmnn 08/19/2020 at 16:52

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It may be his undoing. We will see. 

camarov6rs > Just Jeepin' 08/19/2020 at 16:56

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We already subsidize farmers and agriculture. Seems like we should subsidize them in a way so they inflate the wages so  more citizens will want to work these jobs. This way you don’t have farms looking to other countries to find the cheapest labor possible. Don’t know if that would truly fix much but it feels more responsible I guess.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > Just Jeepin' 08/19/2020 at 17:00

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You think Trump’s a Republican? He is, I suppose, as much as Sanders is a Democrat...

I think the big mistake the Dems made in the last four years was their failure to recognize that Trump had zero allegiance to the core tenets of GOP doctrine. Had they been more prone to stroking his ego and his quirks, I think we’d have gotten something done on immigration, on healthcare and several other core Dem issues.

Hell, we actually got criminal justice reform and somehow that news got buried in the cacophony.

Just Jeepin' > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 08/19/2020 at 17:03

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Did you read the interview? He is the quintessential Republican now.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > Just Jeepin' 08/19/2020 at 17:08

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He’s not actually, but that guy’s welcome to his opinion. And, it’s running on Politico— where I’m sure his views got the same light, balanced touch I’d expect on MSNBC.

Derpwagon > CobraJoe 08/19/2020 at 17:29

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Oppo is DEFINITELY an echo chamber in most political threads. Anyone who disagrees with many of the takes posted here gets hate-brigaded immediately. People are most definitely not excellent to each other. 

nermal > Just Jeepin' 08/19/2020 at 17:35

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I don’t get it. The Rs have always been about small government, pro-business, low taxes, big military, war mongering, and anti-abortion.

Trump has removed regulations, given the yuge-est tax cut in a generation, increased military spending, and states have passed some of the most restrictive anti-abortion legislation.... since it was first made legal. Add in that the military blows shit up on a regular basis as needed. Trump has literally dropped the largest bomb since Truman! There was also that bad Salami guy that was evaporated along with his car, which was extremely impressive from a technical and operational  standpoint .

If you have “traditional conservative values”, you should be thrilled with what the Trump administration has accomplished. Except for the whole budget thing, that’s a disaster this year.

MrSnrub > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 08/19/2020 at 17:35

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The GOP will get nuttier no matter what happens. If Biden wins, it’s because the deep-state conspired against Trump, just like Q predicted , and if Trump wins, it’s because he’s the God Emperor here to save us from pizzagate , just like Q predicted . Reality has no bearing on those people. Either way the GOP gets nuttier and the neocons infiltrate the Democrats.

Textured Soy Protein > LastFirstMI is my name 08/19/2020 at 17:56

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I’m not a fan of creating echo chambers but at this point I feel like it’s somewhat necessary. I’m pretty firmly liberal, but the issue is not that I need to hear my own views reinforced all the time, it’s that the GOP has gone completely fucking bonkers. It’s now a far-right party that’s generally farther to the right than European fringe right-wing parties, except it’s one half of our 2-party system, and it’s fed by a massive propaganda apparatus of its own creation, that its members have deluded themselves into thinking is real. 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/06/26/opinion/sunday/republican-platform-far-right.html

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > MrSnrub 08/19/2020 at 17:58

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Nuttier than “banning fracking immediately”... when fracking is all that’s keeping the lights on in California this evening?

I realize you want to make the case that “all the sane people are in the Democratic party”, but there’s some nutty positions on both sides of the aisle.

DipodomysDeserti > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 08/19/2020 at 19:51

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“ As squeaky clean a candidate as has ever run for office and yet he couldn’t get to first base with the MSM.”

Also couldn’t get to first base with conservative evangelicals on account of him being LDS and an alleged Mexican.

DipodomysDeserti > duurtlang 08/19/2020 at 20:02

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You Euros have plenty of Republican equivalents.

fintail > duurtlang 08/19/2020 at 20:25

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Nixon, who for decades was used as the example of GOP corruption, had policy platforms that would fit in more with the Dems these days. The American right really is a parody, unfortunately, a dangerous parody, as history has examples of such movements ending poorly.

The “other first world” bit is funny, as I am not sure all of the US is first world, nor do all Americans have a first world mindset.

bshappy > DipodomysDeserti 08/19/2020 at 21:56

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I think if Trump’s proven anything it’s that the presidency is not for show. The president is extremely powerful and has never been more powerful. Each successive administration (Dem and GOP) has  clawed power away from the congress bit by bit and the court has done little to stop it.

CobraJoe > Derpwagon 08/19/2020 at 22:09

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Well, I’ll rephrase it as not being the worst echo chamber that I’ve seen.

I’ve had plenty of discussions with people of varying political beliefs here, and most are somewhat civil. The discussions that didn’t stay civil were not likely to have changed either of our opinions.

just-a-scratch > Just Jeepin' 08/20/2020 at 01:30

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Understanding your limits is a sign of intelligence in my view.

duurtlang > DipodomysDeserti 08/20/2020 at 02:08

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I see your point, but people like Wilders are seen as clowns by 80+% of the population. A fringe phenomenon, even though the support has exceeded ‘fringe’ somewhat . They are anti-establishment and do not have any power. Which will never change. Trump and trumpism IS establishment and has all the power.

But, yes, you are right that my remark was not entirely correct. Some comparisons with people like Wilders are valid.

duurtlang > fintail 08/20/2020 at 02:15

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About your last paragraph; as an outsider looking in, the US is quite interesting. It’s like a rich developing country. It’s somehow stuck in the past. The US used to be a few steps ahead. Then the 20th century happened, especially the second half and mostly the last quarter (starting with Reagan) , and the US was overtaken left and right.

I’m only a novice so I might be wrong here, but I partly blame the multiple centuries old constitution that is taken as gospel. That, plus American exceptionalism, which is extremely detrimental to progress.

fintail > duurtlang 08/20/2020 at 12:38

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Sadly, in socio-economic terms, has become like a resource-rich banana republic with a massive amount of production, but the gains are siphoned off by a relative few, and there’s a gigantic and growing underclass in a virtual caste system.    

As you say, it used to be a step ahead, with easily the strongest working/middle class in the world. Then the trickle down lie became law during Reagan, and well, here we are - while people still cling to the fantasy, and neither side will do anything about it (the Dems have had many chances to undo the tax idiocy, but won’t touch it).

Most people who whine about the constitution don’t know anything more than the second amendment.    In my opinion, it is “temporarily embarrassed millionaire” syndrome - everyone has this delusion that they are on the cusp of striking it rich, so they are fine with reducing taxes as they don’t want to pay more when they finally find their pot of gold.  Of course, that pot of gold will never be found, but the safety net, and social goods become more threadbare as the consolidation of wealth continues, now to a greater point than since before the depression.

SmugAardvark > Just Jeepin' 08/20/2020 at 18:41

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I’m just not smart enough to know how to fix them.

Like that ever stopped Trump!