Spicy Hot Take: I don't care about the GMA T.50

"TheJWT" (thejwt)
08/13/2020 at 16:40 • Filed to: Rant

Before I piss everyone here off I should note that I absolutely respect Gordon Murray, and I’m sure the T.50 will be an excellent car to drive. I don’t dislike it, I just don’t care about it.

No component or design feature on it is particularly new; it’s just refinement on an older design. High performance n/a V12s have been around since god knows when. The styling, though I do respect its restraint and relative simplicity, is a direct modernization of the F1 from the early 90s. Even the fan is just an upgraded version of the ones that led the Brabham BT46B and Chaparral 2J to racing banishment. In that sense, The T.50 is doing its best impression of a sports car from the late 20th century. Only it’s not a car from the late 20th century, because contemporary regulations mean you could never just throw a 30 year old car back on sale today. If what you really want is a car designed before the time of dual-clutch transmissions and hybrid powertrains, buying a brand new car in 2020 is not really going to get you there. Just like a newly-built house trying to emulate a 1900s Tudor and coming out tacky and cheap looking, or a new Star Wars movie failing to capture the cultural impact of the original, you can recreate the details which made old things good, but you can’t recreate the technical limitations of the time which gave the originals their character. I’ve always been of the notion that if you want something old, buy something old.

That leads me on to my next issue, which is h ow anyone can truthfully view a 1-of-100, $3 million car as the ultimate driver’s car. A car that no one, owners included, will ever drive can not under any circumstances be called a “driver’s car” In fact, the entire notion of “driver’s cars” to me is such an exercise in gatekeeping. “Oh, you like the LaFerrari? Well I, the vastly more enlightened enthusiast, prefer the car which is worse in most if not all objective categories. ” What even is a driver’s car, for that matter? Is its zenith really a car built for the kind of driving that even the most hardcore “enthusiast” partakes in less than 10% of the time? Imagine you own a T.50, or any supercar for that matter, and try to imagine a scenario where you’re using it to its full potential. A twisty mountain road on the weekend? Better keep that 12,000 RPM Cosworth V12 restrained; you never know when there will be a big pothole, or a cyclist, or a cop around the next corner. Are you going to take it to the local track? B etter be careful not to get too close to the college kid in his leased WRX, or scrape your one-piece carbon fiber undertray on the rumble strips. None of this is to completely write off these cars. I’ve driven supercars and they’re tremendously fun, even in the wrong environment . But the whole concept of the ideal driver’s car as it is promoted by automotive journalists and car enthusiasts makes me roll my eyes.

So again, why should I get excited for a car that fetishizes obsolete technology, when there are plenty of the cars it’s trying to be readily available for 1/1000th of the price? I get aspirational cars; I aspire to own an original Honda NSX one day, because there’s a real (albeit slim) possibility of that actually happening.

Why should I get excited for a car that b oring old guys in finance and horrible influencers will hide away in their climate controlled and dustproof garages, taking them out once a year to show off at cars and coffee?

And why, most importantly should I get excited about a car which was designed to some arbitrar y standard that a journalist somewhere says is “correct”. Gordon Murray has his version of the perfect car, and it’s the T.50. I have my version of the perfect car, and it’s not.

You’ll have more fun on a cheap 600cc bike anyways

DISCUSSION (26)

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > TheJWT
08/13/2020 at 16:44

I couldn’t care less about any car over like, $60K USD.

Not gonna happen in my life man.

gin-san - shitpost specialist > TheJWT
08/13/2020 at 16:48

I used to care about these things maybe 10-15 years ago but not so much anymore.

Maybe it’s the reality that I’m not going to be in a position to spend seven figures on that kind of car.

If someone really wanted the true Murray experience they can just look for an old Elan, he loves those.

CobraJoe > TheJWT
08/13/2020 at 16:49

I stopped caring about uber-high performance cars as soon as I realized how far my professional salary actually goes.

I’m having a hard time getting interested in a new Mustang GT, cars are expensive.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > TheJWT
08/13/2020 at 16:53

I could be wrong, but very cynically speaking, he could just be attempting to corner the market of people who want a McLaren F1 for $3M instead of the $10M+ that the originals now command.

Also, I also wanted to argue that a street V12 that can do 12k RPM is pretty much unheard of, so that is novel (even if the tech itself is not). I might be singing praises of this car if I had $3M to throw around. But I don’t.

Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast > TheJWT
08/13/2020 at 16:56

Everyone likes different things for different reasons, and e veryone dislikes different things for different reasons .

And all of that is ok.

In the most basic view, this car fills a (very small ) segment. The “I want to spend $1mil+ on a new car that has a manual” crowd. As of right now, for them, this is their only choice.

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > TheJWT
08/13/2020 at 17:01

I honestly had the same opinion when it was announced, but then I watched some of the videos and walkarounds and it totally changed my mind.

Saying it brings nothing new to the table just isn’t true. Between the insane engine and the way it controls airflow (nothing like the Brabha m car) it brings some totally new ways of completing the task of “driver’s car” to the table.

I’ll never own one (may never even see one), but I can still appreciate the thought and care that went into it.

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast
08/13/2020 at 17:02

My guess is it’s about 100 people. Well, hopefully for Gordon anyway.....

AestheticsInMotion > TheJWT
08/13/2020 at 17:03

Agreed.

Anybody can design something amazing with unlimited budget and resources. Let’s see what Gordon Murray can do designing an ultimate drivers car for $50,000

MUSASHI66 > TheJWT
08/13/2020 at 17:04

You are free to be wrong.

Nauraushaun > TheJWT
08/13/2020 at 17:07

This is a shame. Murray has said it. I wish he’d build more or something - anything, to make them more accessible and usable. He is making a racing version to give owners something they can use more recklessly, but that sort of defeats the whole point.

He said it with the F1 - you can’t use them how they’re meant to be used because they’re too expensive. I think it’s ridiculous - if you own a $20 million dollar car you definitely can afford to use it properly. And repair it. And it’s still a $20 million dollar car. The whole idea that a billionaire “can’t afford” to drive a sports car they own is absolutely ridiculous. But that is how they behave.

I d on’t think the fact that it’s yesterday’s technology is an issue. There’s something cool about it being the absolute best of yesterday’s technology. A very well made knife may not cut as well as an electric knife, a fancy mechanical keyboard may not be as useful as a touchscreen, an acoustic guitar doesn’t have nearly the versatility of an electric. But there’s joy in using one of these things if done well.

lone_liberal > TheJWT
08/13/2020 at 17:08

Judging by the hate I got on the FP when I said that, contrary to the headline used, the car didn’t really matter I’d say “duck!”.

TheJWT > Nauraushaun
08/13/2020 at 17:15

I agree that yesterday’s technology can be way more satisfying. Both of my motorcycles are older than me and I buy a lot of my favorite albums o n vinyl. That’s not because they’re better than new technology, I just personally like the old stuff better. It’s my opinion that something which is actually old is going to be a lot more authentic than something trying to be old though , for better or worse.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > TheJWT
08/13/2020 at 17:17

“ The T.50 is doing its best impression of a sports car from the late 20th century.”

Yes, but with modern performance. It is the direct successor to the F1.

“ If what you really want is a car designed before the time of dual-clutch transmissions and hybrid powertrains, buying a brand new car in 2020 is not really going to get you there.”

But that’s not who this is for. This is for people who want a brand new hypercar in 2020... but without dual clutch transmissions and hybrid powertrains. Which is a market segment that is currently unfilled. Closest thing I can think of is the R8 manual, but I’m not even entirely sure those are still a thing.

“ you can’t recreate the technical limitations of the time which gave the originals their character.”

Kinda missing the point again; this isn’t a homage, it’s a successor. It’s him wanting to do the F1 again but without corporate restrictions on his creativity (like throwing a damn vacuum on it) and with modern advances in composites and engine management and manufacturing tech.

“ So again, why should I get excited for a car that fetishizes obsolete technology, when there are plenty of the cars it’s trying to be readily available for 1/1000th of the price?”

None of those cars it’s “trying to be” (which, again, is not what’s happening here) are as fast.

And the *really* exciting prospect is that a decontented cheaper version will be made available, hopefully in the ~100k range as a sort of “lotus+++” offering in the market.

UserNotFound > TheJWT
08/13/2020 at 17:18

Hey, that’s fine! If there wasn’t at least one wrong person in the world, how would the rest of us know we were right?

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > TheJWT
08/13/2020 at 17:21

Not as hot a take as you might think...

I am beyond tired, and getting a bit angry about the daily deluge of new multi-million-dollar self-propelled art sculptures being masqueraded as cars.

While almost no effort is being made at offering compelling variety of mainstream cars anywhere near what the average salary earner can afford in their budget, without years of debt for something with huge depreciation.

I respect the engineering, and the engineer...

But this is F2, the Next Generation. “ In many ways it’s superior, but will never be as recognized as the original.”

Kinja'd!!!

MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) > TheJWT
08/13/2020 at 18:03

My issue with old things is....I want old things without the age. I know I can’t, and I know why I can’t, but I would love to buy a brand new NA Miata, or Volvo 240. Honestly I would love to buy any Naturally Aspirated, manual steering’d, cable throttle’d, rear wheel drive, <3000lbs, reasonably sporty car.

For me it’s not about what those technologies represented, or the limitations, it’s about how they function and the feedback they provide. As long as I can turn off ‘all the nannies’ throw as much tech and modernity at it as you want.

MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever
08/13/2020 at 18:04

That’s when you hit the threshold of “why buy a 70,000$ corvette, when I can buy a minty C4 and some other stuff for less!

But that’s assuming you’re not revolted by the idea of buying a used car.

TheJWT > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
08/13/2020 at 18:05

It’s unfulfilled because it’s an oxymoron. A manual transmission is never going to shift as quick and a hybrid system will only ever make a hypercar faster, which is the whole point of their existence. Also you’ll have to excuse me for not caring about the plight of the poor billionaires who want a manual in their static art piece. Like I said, I’m sure the T.50 is a great car to drive, but I just don’t care about it.

TheJWT > MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick)
08/13/2020 at 18:09

That’s perfectly understandable, but it’s also where we differ. I think that the limitations of old cars or bikes or whatever really are what make you truly appreciate the good things about them

MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) > TheJWT
08/13/2020 at 19:25

I don’t think we d iffer there, I completely agree. My point was that just because the things are qualities of older cars (cable throttle, etc) , doesn’t mean that I’m after the experience of an old car necessarily . I may just want the attributes of those things.

For example in my case I want both. I’d like an older project with those attributes because it’s fun and driving older stuff is a little window into a time I never experienced personally. I’d also like a second, modern car with all the crash safety that entails...but with all the stuff I listed (I full well know why I can’t have this hypothetical car).

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > TheJWT
08/13/2020 at 19:57

I am absolutely here for the pure engineering the T.50 represents. I adore how much attention to detail has been bestowed upon that vehicle.

But engineering aside, I don’t care about the T.50 either since I’ll never see one. And I certainly will never drive one. Even if given the chance to drive one, I’d probably turn it down since that is like 23 times more car than I am capable of driving without incident.

What I want to have happen is a return to driving purity. I want someone to devote Singer and Murray levels of design and attention onto something us plebes could actually hope to afford. Fuck massive HP. Give me a car with the same amount of thought put into it as the pedals from the T.50, but at most 150HP. I want to be able to use all that power as often as possible. I think my GTI is too fast to be honest.

Exage03040 @ opposite-lock.com > TheJWT
08/13/2020 at 20:05

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

And it’s sort of the reason why I switched to bikes, having a batshit 1000cc acme rocket isn’t a lottery jackpot dream like a Aventador . I damn well know it’s very likely my near future.

I honestly didn’t click on any of the articles for this car. From what I gathered second hand, it’s some sort of analoge fan car and not unlike all the other hyper-cars I’ll never see outside of video games or a velvet rope affair.

Care? Not really...

TheJWT > Exage03040 @ opposite-lock.com
08/13/2020 at 21:47

Same here, I really hate the way normal people are getting priced out of fun cars, with new cars being stupid expensive and interesting old cars being bought as “investments”. Over the past year and a half or so I’ve definitely become a lot less interested in cars and a lot more interested in bikes.

Exage03040 @ opposite-lock.com > TheJWT
08/13/2020 at 23:33

There’s many sides.

I found the whole modern supercar has lost mystique with the switch to auto clutches. N ow any poser with money can flash one around town. Seeing a Testarossa or Diablo (any supercar pre millennium ) on the road is/was an event because they are finicky and a pain in the ass to drive. My sister could jump into any new Fezza and drive quickly no problem and it has the same reliability/maintenance as a $30k VW.

And while the bikes have come just as far if not further comparably with being more operator friendly there’s still much skin in the game. T o eek the performance out of the bike takes a much more than just control operation, you just have point people to R nickymouse and watch the hundred of videoed scrubs loose it on the snake . The psychological factor of corning alone can’t be explained.

It’s still a vehicle where the average person wants to stay away from because of the lack of safety, more effort to operate, and amplified by astonishing performance.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > TheJWT
08/14/2020 at 09:06

“ an oxymoron”
lots of good things are

“ A manual transmission is never going to shift as quick”
Personally I think it’d make more sense with a mechanical sequential with a clutch pedal. Then you can have your cake and eat it too.

“ Also you’ll have to excuse me for not caring about the plight of the poor billionaires who want a manual in their static art piece.”
Eh, that’s a bit leftist wankery. It’s an engineering exercise, like a Koenigsegg.

Jayhawk Jake > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
08/14/2020 at 13:33

The R8 manual isn’t a thing anymore