I am so disappointed in Orlove

"Chariotoflove" (chariotoflove) 06/12/2020 at 18:32 • Filed to: rant

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I used to think of him as one of the Jalopnik writers that that took the effort to really investigate (when allowed to) and produce some thoughtful pieces. He severely damaged his credibility with me in !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! about the case for ending traffic stops. I bring it up here because I think it deserves real discussion, and I grow increasingly despondent about the futility of finding that in the FP comments.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Here are Raphe’s main arguments, paraphrased:

Traffic stops don’t don’t slow people down or make anybody safer on the road.

Traffic stops are simply a racist tool to harass blacks and other minorities and facilitate what would otherwise be illegal searches.

Traffic stops are a tool used to increase revenue, again, preferably at the expense of minorities.

To support his opinion, he makes a bunch of references to official docs and studies, but his logic is slim, and his references are a master class in cherry-picking published sources to support a preconceived conclusion:

The main argument is that Orlove doesn’t see anybody slowing down, that there are still lots of speeders, reckless drivers, and non-compliant junk heaps on the road. That’s anecdotal evidence, and as any rational person with a bare minimum of critical thinking ability should realize, anecdotes from one or even several people are useless to prove a generalized point. The only study he really references is about Nashville, where apparently they have well above the national average of traffic stops but not below the average of traffic fatalities or accidents. The problem is that when you recognize the wide variations in regional driver behavior across the country, the lack of a control wing on which to base solid conclusions is glaringly obvious. Anecdotally, I can say that when I know that a certain region has more state troopers lying in wait on it, I keep my cruise control set lower, and the cars around me do too. Everyone definitely slows down for a while after they pass a cop or traffic stop. That would be my anecdote vs. Orlove’s anecdote. Both equally worthless for nationwide generalizations. To be clear: he may be right, but he didn’t show the evidence to support it .

Do minorities get harassed at traffic stops? Certainly, we all know this. Are traffic stops used by some police forces as a way to specifically target minorities, especially immigrant ones? Almost certainly, according to what I’ve see in the mass media. Are traffic stops therefore inherently racist? That’s an absurd leap. Show of hands, how many white males here have been stopped for speeding or other moving violations? Now how many of you think you can claim those stops were racist? Point being: y ou cannot generalize from one or even a number of data points without looking at an unbiased and sufficiently large sample population.

Traffic stops are unequivocally a primary method of revenue generation, especially for small jurisdictions. This is where Orlove is on solid ground. Now, how do we take out that conflict of interest? What’s a way to enforce without incarceration or impoundment of the offender’s car? Maybe make all fines be sent to the state budget instead of local and earmarked for road improvement or education or something that everyone can agree is a good use for the money? Just one idea I had as I typed this.

Now, not to be seen as a whiner without solutions, Raphe ends with some ideas for alternatives to traffic stops, but he clearly hasn’t given much thought to them:

Traffic cameras. Yeah, this is a good one. I don’t know about your specific state, but here in Texas, traffic cameras were so controversial that the legislature abolished them. The big complaint was that it was unfair to be convicted by a machine (I think that’s a flimsy rationale, but no one asked me) and that they were primarily used for easy revenue (so that doesn’t solve one of Raphe’s main gripes either). Calling for a measure that the public has already rejected is worthless.

Public transportation. Yes, that’s right, he proposed public transportation as a way to eliminate the need for traffic stops. The good old “if you get rid of the cars, you get rid of car deaths and accidents” argument. This is a Jalopnik writer making this argument.

And finally, have government people go around and proactively find and fix car problems like tail lights for free, so that everyone who can’t afford to will have a working car. Even if you agree with that kind of socialism, and you can make an argument for it if you support expanded government, how will that have anything to do with moving violations?

Let me be clear: I think many traffic stops are  bullshit , especially the way I’ve seen them usually run. There is lots of abuse of police power, and so much money grubbing conflict of interest in the practice that it makes me nauseated and contemptuous of the forces that do it, even as I have to admit that every single time I’ve been stopped for speeding, I was guilty. But if you want to change a practice, you need to bring unbiased, logical arguments to the fight . Otherwise, you just hurt the cause for which you are fighting.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Chariotoflove 06/12/2020 at 18:46

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You made it through the entire article and commented?!? You, sir, are a better man than I. I barely made it halfway, then decided that article was worthy of a hard pass. 

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > Chariotoflove 06/12/2020 at 18:47

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Similarly, all these defund police advocates don’t realize that the first budget items to be cut are going to be victim services and HR which would affect diversity/multiculturalism efforts.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > Chariotoflove 06/12/2020 at 18:59

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I don’t really have an argument, so much as anecdotes as to what I think of traffic stops.

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A cop in Stanwood once pulled me over when I was going 23 in a 25.

“What seems to be the problem?”

“There are lot of stolen Civics around here...”

“Okay, so you have my license and registration in your hand still... Is there... something else you need?”

He made me wait in my car for 30 minutes and then let me go.

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A cop on Camano pulled me over for going 37 in a 35.

“Do you know why I pulled you over?”

“No.”

“Have you been smoking marijuana, sir ?”

“No.”

“Why are your eyes bloodshot?”

“I have insomnia.”

He told my my exhaust was too loud and let me go.

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A cop pulled me over in Mountlake Terrace, going 27 in a 25.

“I just pulled you over.”

“Just now?”

“No, last month, I told you I didn’t want to see you again.”

“... What?”

“Your registration says your truck is white, I told you to fix that.”

“I bought this truck today.”

“Today?”

“Here’s the bill of sale...”

The wind was taken from his sails.

“License and registration.”

Made me wait 45 minutes and then let me go.

-

Many, many, many, many more examples.

TLDR, traffic stops are a way to nose into your business as they hope to unlock a much juicier crime. Generating revenue is more like a consolation prize. It would be more effective to use more speeding cameras and less officers if money was the top priority.

The racism thing... YMMV, but if you’re younger or a minority, get ready  to be hassled for having a “nicer car” than you “can” afford. It’s not that you’ll get pulled over for being black; it’s that once you ARE pulled over for whatever reason, you’re gonna have a bad time.

facw > Chariotoflove 06/12/2020 at 19:05

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As I said there, I do think traffic stops and ticketing are clearly biased . They are also generally unsafe for the officer (simply walking beside a highway is plenty dangerous, even before you consider whether the driver they pulled over wishes them harm). And if the officer is fearful about the occupants of the car they pulled over, that clearly makes the situation more dangerous for those occupants as well.

Camera/sensor enforcement is clearly a better option. Saying it is worthless because the public has rejected it is absurd. For one the public can change their minds! This will never happen if you say “ we tried that and it was unpopular so let’s never bring it up again”. People can be reasoned with! They can be educated as to the benefits of a new system, and of the detriments of the current system! And of course they can be deployed on a different model than the ones the public rejected. The fact they we implemented a crappy, obvious cash grab doesn’t mean it has to work like that (indeed there are plenty of good reasons to believe it shouldn’t).

facw > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 06/12/2020 at 19:07

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Most Defund the Police arguments advocate sending the money redirected from the police to social services outside the police. It doesn’t really matter if the police cut those services first, as they are clearly terrible at them. And since the police have been extremely harm to reform, maybe better to give someone else a chance instead.

vondon302 > Chariotoflove 06/12/2020 at 19:07

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I couldn’t even finish his article.

Thank you for writing this, it’s like you read my mind on some points, but the problem is I write like crap unlike you.

I can't imagine a world without traffic stops the roads are a shitshow as it is.

dumpsterfire! > Chariotoflove 06/12/2020 at 19:07

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I think it's hard to ignore one of the hero traffic stop legends. Timothy McVeigh was pulled over for a missing license plate after OKC and a random state trooper caught the most deadly domestic terrorist. Unfortunately, it probably leads to the Lotto theory of probability- it just takes once, regardless of the potential side effects.

DipodomysDeserti > Chariotoflove 06/12/2020 at 19:07

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“ Do minorities get harassed at traffic stops? Certainly, we all know this. Are traffic stops used by some police forces as a way to specifically target minorities, especially immigrant ones? Almost certainly, according to what I’ve see in the mass media. Are traffic stops therefore inherently racist? That’s an absurd leap.”

I’m struggling to understand how that’s an absurd leap. Please explain.

The Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office was specifically targeting brown hispanic people for traffic stops just to check immigration status. That seems pretty racist to me, since they were specifically using the color of the person’s skin to determine whether or not to pull them over. They were ordered to stop by a court, didn’t, then Sheriff Joe was found guilty of contempt of court, and later pardoned by Trump. A recent audit found that they are still more likely to pull over Hispanic drivers, despite old Joe being out of office for a few years.

I doubt MCSO is unique in this regard.

DipodomysDeserti > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 06/12/2020 at 19:12

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Not sure what percentage if their budgets go towards that now. My BIL is a social worker, and deals a lot with victims services. He works for a private company. He used to work for the county and he said they didn’t do shit.

I’m not accusing you of this, but  I find it real amusing how so many fiscal conservatives and libertarians suddenly become spend happy liberals when it comes to police.

Spasoje > Chariotoflove 06/12/2020 at 19:17

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Articles like this are why people don’t read Jalopnik anymore. I'm glad you read it, so I didn't have to!

This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja: > Chariotoflove 06/12/2020 at 19:20

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smobgirl > Chariotoflove 06/12/2020 at 19:25

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We had a DUI checkpoint set up through my neighborhood once as a front to check immigration status. 

gettingoldercarguy > DipodomysDeserti 06/12/2020 at 19:29

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I have been wondering what policing would be like if officers had to be individually insured. Similar to physicians and attorneys. Not under a blanket policy where the department is insured. And individuals were able to actually sue the officer, unions be damned.

You start getting a bunch of complaints for excessive force, insurers are going to get wary of increase your premiums. At a certain point they’ll make it too expensive to work as an officer. Furthermore, officers around you would be more inclined to speak up about the offending officer’s actions or distance themselves from you all together for fear of their premiums going all spaceX.

Svend > Chariotoflove 06/12/2020 at 19:30

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How about educating your police officers in how to do a traffic stop. How to carry out a stop, how to address the situation, how to de-escalate any tension, etc...

It’s not the traffic stops that are the issue, it’s how they are being done.

These people that bitch about it being revenue, sheeeshhh.

Plain and simple, you know the road laws in your area, or should do. If traveling through another state, make yourself familiar with their traffic laws, hell, we do when we travel through another European country.

If we stop traffic stops, people will give less of a shit than they do now. So many drivers feel entitled to do what they want and how ever they want.

Good reasons for traffic stops,

DUI (ironically an intoxicated driver has more change or causing an incident but also of su rviving it due to the ‘ragdoll effect’) ,

S peeding (set for a reason, don’t like it, take it up with your local authority and get support, until it’s changed, that is the speed limit, deal with it ) ,

D riving under the influence of drugs (legal medical or illegal),

Careless driving/ D riving without due care and attention (either distracted driving from operating another device or poor lane discipline, driving tired, aggressive driving, driving contrary to medical advice, etc... ),

Improperly secured minors. Children not belted or in incorrect seats.

and so many more.

Any one of these can cause death, you may argue. ‘But driving carries a high risk of death!’, SO DON’T FUCKING INCREASE IT EXPONENTIALLY!!! .

Also, educate your drivers. Passing a driving test in the U.S. varies so much it’s mind boggling. With some of them being so incredibly easy. This is a country that has ‘drivers ed’. 

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > Svend 06/12/2020 at 19:40

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The problem is that traffic stops are mostly just fishing expeditions for cops, not attempts to solve anything.

I’ve been pulled over once in ten years in my Trans Am, meanwhile my girlfriend talks about all the times she got pulled over in her first two cars (a ratty old Corolla and a beater Taurus). The best was that according to her  it was never for anything in particular, just for “looking suspicious”, and they’d let her go once they realized she was a scrawny white girl. She bought a 2016 Kia Optima 2 years ago and hasn’t been pulled over since.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > Chariotoflove 06/12/2020 at 19:43

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I don’t really want to see fewer traffic stops. I just want them for entirely different reasons. Pretty much the only reason you can get pulled over for is speeding. Sure maybe the occasional roll through a stop sign if they are camping an intersection for it.

How about pulling over people for dangerous, illegal merges/turns/stops in the middle of the road for no reason. Or catching the red light running semi trucks. Or stopping people with dangerous tires, giant smoke storms coming out of the car, or other obvious erratic driving. My personal favorite would be ticketing people for not using turnouts on mountain roads or camping in the left lane, but those are far lower priority in terms of safety. 

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 06/12/2020 at 19:44

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Here’s a cherry picked piece that supports your narrative here:

https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > gettingoldercarguy 06/12/2020 at 19:44

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https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > DipodomysDeserti 06/12/2020 at 19:44

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https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > TheRealBicycleBuck 06/12/2020 at 19:45

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https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > vondon302 06/12/2020 at 19:45

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https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > smobgirl 06/12/2020 at 19:46

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https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759

Just a way to stick their noses in our business.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Chariotoflove 06/12/2020 at 19:48

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https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759

gettingoldercarguy > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/12/2020 at 19:52

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I’ve for nothing. Jesus that’s fucked up.

Svend > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) 06/12/2020 at 19:53

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That’s why your police need to get educated with over site .

In the U.K. if your found to of been pulling cars over for no vali d reason that can cost you your job. When ever you do a PNC check (Police National Computer data base check), it is recorded who, where and when, etc... 

Here a police officer can’t pull you over without a valid reason, though those may seem insignificant, a blown bulb is still an offence, etc...

But so often is the case that a minor motoring offence can yield more significant offen c es such as driving without a licence or insurance, driving with excess breath alcohol, drug paraphernalia in the vehicle, a concealed weapon, etc...  

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Chariotoflove 06/12/2020 at 19:55

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When I lived in PA, I got harassed by a cop. I was talking to some friends at a Sheetz, and watched the officer roll by twice. After leaving the parking lot, he pulled out of an alley and followed me around town for five minutes. When he finally pulled me over, I asked him why he pulled me over, and  he said I looked suspicious. I’m a white male of Irish decent. Cops are just dicks. 

kanadanmajava1 > Chariotoflove 06/12/2020 at 19:56

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Why do people hate traffic came ra s so much? A camera doesn’t do anything nasty to either law abiding citizens or even to those how forgot/disobey the rules. It just checks couple of things . These could be speed limit or obeying traffic lights. Some rare ones could also check your phone usage or did you wear a seat belt .

And not getting a fine from the camera is very easy. Follow the speed limit, only go when the light is green, wear your seat belt and leave the phone in the pocket/purse .

The camera doesn’t harass you even if you would look identical wi th the countr y’s most wanted serial murderer and drive with an identical car. A camera doesn’t stop you and make you answer weird questions. It doesn’t even racially profile you.

fintail > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 06/12/2020 at 20:01

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Not like those funds seem to be doing much anyway.

I’d be happy to see them fund their platinum retirement plans at the same level of normal workers.

Jb boin > Svend 06/12/2020 at 20:03

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I agree with you, training cops and drivers correctly would be a good start.

If the cops are using  traf fic stops to harass people then the problem is not the traffic stops...

fintail > kanadanmajava1 06/12/2020 at 20:04

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At least here, of a cut camera-related citation revenue goes to a company that more or less bribed its way to get a contract.

There have been numerous cases of yellow lights being shortened to increase red light “violations”.

fintail > Chariotoflove 06/12/2020 at 20:05

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I’m a boring looking white guy in a Mercedes - I’ve never had an issue with traffic stops.

Oh wait, that might be part of the problem.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > gettingoldercarguy 06/12/2020 at 20:06

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So entirely believable.

fintail > Svend 06/12/2020 at 20:07

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Cops get fired there? Bizarre! Here they have to nearly or fully kill people to get that treatment.

Some of the “local authorities” need to be called out too. 

Cash Rewards > Chariotoflove 06/12/2020 at 20:12

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Yet we all see what people were doing when they thought the cops weren't pulling people over: going 120 on highways they thought were unpatrolled.

Chariotoflove > TheRealBicycleBuck 06/12/2020 at 20:13

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I didn’t comment. For one thing, I haven’t been able to comment on any of the Kinja blogs for a while now, and even when I try to click a star, it removes rather than adds one.

I felt I had to read through if I was to rant about it.

Chariotoflove > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 06/12/2020 at 20:18

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These all sound about right. I once made the mistake o f asking a cop if he didn’t have real criminals to deal with.

gettingoldercarguy > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/12/2020 at 20:18

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Just saw the m alpractice insurance idea.

Chariotoflove > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 06/12/2020 at 20:19

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It is a baby with the bathwater situation.

Cash Rewards > DipodomysDeserti 06/12/2020 at 20:19

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I think it should say “ are ALL traffic stops inherently racist”.

And no, they’re not, but far too many are.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > gettingoldercarguy 06/12/2020 at 20:21

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We need to have an entire agency of cops who are not cops, but more like Community Service Officers who are unarmed and differently trained and belong to an entirely separate agency. As it is now, every cop who contacts you is armed to the teeth and wearing 50 pounds of battle rattle.

Svend > fintail 06/12/2020 at 20:26

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Oh yes, and unlike the U.S. you get fired from one force, tha t’s you out.

A friend of mine was suspended for months for using excessive force and ‘common assault’ for ‘p unching and banging the guy’s head off the wall’ . His career hung in the balance for months after one of his colleagues ( a young new officer) put in a complaint about him.

It was thrown out after the judge questioned the guy and asked why his statement kept changing, his own solicitor (lawyer) who was in the room said he did not see the officer punch the guy.

Thankfully he’s back at work again now. 

gettingoldercarguy > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/12/2020 at 20:27

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Yeah, I agree on  defunding the police with the goal being refunding society.

kanadanmajava1 > fintail 06/12/2020 at 20:28

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In my country all fines are going straight  to the “ country’s bank account ” but the cameras are bought from some supplier. So the supplier isn’t getting a cut of the fines but the cameras are likely quite expensive .

I have heard about this “yellow light shortening” problem. I think some dude got into trouble when he was investigating about it.

MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 06/12/2020 at 20:54

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It’s interesting how different jurisdictions seem to run things, as that has not been my experience with traffic stops.

Where I am we have our regional police , as well as the OPP which kind of acts like a state police as they mostly focus on highways.

In my entire history of driving, including as a delivery driver working late at night and commuting home even later, I have only been stopped for genuine issues, except for one speeding stop .

Whether it was out of date tags (most common for me, fuck I’m bad about that) or my car being unintentionally straight piped from the cat back (I was also passing illegally), a DUI checkpoint, or me speeding, there’s always a justified reason in pulling me over. I also haven’t seen a speed trap run by our regional police in over a decade, but the OPP does still run them in our area.

The only thing close to unjustified was being pulled over and ticketed for doing 110 in a 90 (traffic does 120 in the right lane) as they were just parked waiting for speeders. I was genuinely speeding, but they reduced it to 10 over on the spot to make it a minor conviction, 50$ fine so I didn’t get the impression it was a revenue thing.

I’m not saying that to disagree with you, or to say everyone in my region has had the same experience (I’m a young, polite,  white guy), just that it’s interesting how enforcement differs from region to region. 

DipodomysDeserti > gettingoldercarguy 06/12/2020 at 21:00

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NPR had a professor on today that is studying the effects of unionization and police violence. It seems there is a correlation between the two.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > DipodomysDeserti 06/12/2020 at 21:05

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SHOCKING! The exact same is true with educators, though it’s about trauma and not outright violence. Teachers like to carry on about how much more money they’d be earning in the real world. And I’m like, “Yes, and let me know when Elvis gets here.”

DipodomysDeserti > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/12/2020 at 21:10

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Good article. My dad grew up working for goombahs that were also NYC police officers, and my step grandfather was a cop and a  founding member of a fairly well known California motorcycle gang. I’ve never been under any sort of illusion regarding the conduct of police officers.

fintail > Svend 06/12/2020 at 21:10

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A good reason bodycams should be mandatory 100% of the time.  Not just to protect civilians, but to protect officers from false accusations.

Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 06/12/2020 at 21:11

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From what I’ve seen defunding police isn’t really about abolishment, it is as much about funding emergency mental health and safety services in cases of non violent/non felonious conduct.

The other thing I’ve seen is that defunding should be about withdrawing all of the tactical/military grade gear.

Anyways, criminal justices’ focus on victims at times can be pretty offputting from a criminal justice standpoint. Worrying about the known victim can make jurors more likely to convict a questionably  guilty party in an attempt to “ right a wrong” so to speak. 

gettingoldercarguy > DipodomysDeserti 06/12/2020 at 21:13

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This is an area where I definitely agree with immoral minority about getting rid of the unions.

fintail > kanadanmajava1 06/12/2020 at 21:14

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Here, not just the cameras are bought from a well-connected supplier, but the monitoring is also performed by a for-profit group. The potential for malfeasance is yuuuuge. The agreements always give the well-connected camera operator a cut, either from traffic violations or tolls.

Those responsible for shortening yellow lights should be convicted on fraud charges, losing their ridiculous bennies in the process, but that will never happen.

Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle > Chariotoflove 06/12/2020 at 21:15

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My understanding is the city I live in, the police have stopped actively patrolling for traffic violations ; there are traffic problems but it’s not quite as Wild West as you might think. They will pursue for active big  violations but they don’t sit around waiting to “get” people. Although part of the irony is that I live in Minneapolis...

This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja: > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/12/2020 at 21:16

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No way he was a cop. Far too articulate, far too intelligent. Never once used the phrase “green leafy substance”.

They never would have hired him.

Sovande > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 06/12/2020 at 21:16

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That's not true. 

DipodomysDeserti > kanadanmajava1 06/12/2020 at 21:20

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I loved the cameras because it was against state law for a camera to issue a ticket, so judges started throwing them out. My wife got one and we just completely ignored it.

Svend > fintail 06/12/2020 at 21:31

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That’s why ours wear them, to protect all parties. 

Exage03040 @ opposite-lock.com > Chariotoflove 06/12/2020 at 21:35

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“Click-in” of the whole ACAB #defundthepolice movement. They’re loosing clicks and the only way to keep forward is to stir into the BS. One can argue that they’ve always been liberal sided but this is a whole shift to outright progressive. However for myself it’s gone over the line into stupidity. It’s very apparent why both Patrick George and Michael Ballaban bounced harder and faster than a Roger Federer serve.

I know Rory claims to want to have rational discussions on transportation topics but from the past couple months have show this to be a blatant lie, they want a echo chamber. Anyone who is any bit critical is dog piled and bullied , even with legitimate expository information. Not only by commentators but the authors are engaging in this as well.

What’s really confusing is the readership hasn’t yet caught on to the inequality of male to female writers has shifted back to male dominance now. I’m sure they’d love to shuffle Andrew and David out to go 100% winger.

This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja: > kanadanmajava1 06/12/2020 at 21:40

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...b ut it will catch you every time, unlike the police who only catch you every now and again.  Unsportsmanlike conduct.

zipfuel > Chariotoflove 06/12/2020 at 21:51

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I feel like it’s one of those opinion pieces that shouldn’t be taken literally. Yeah he wrote it quickly without academic levels of rigor and the position being argued for is kind of a straw man but in the process of knocking it down it really makes you ask the question: why the heck are we doing this? Cos it seems to cause a shitload of harm for minimal benefit.

Of course humans respond to incentives and removing all enforcement from the roadways would have major side effects but the idea that you could do without 90+ % of it is worth considering.

BigBlock440 > MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) 06/12/2020 at 22:08

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but they reduced it to 10 over on the spot to make it a minor conviction, 50$ fine so I didn’t get the impression it was a revenue thing.

They do that so you’re not tempted to go to court to fight it.  They can keep your $50 without costing more than that having it tied up in court for a day.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > DipodomysDeserti 06/12/2020 at 22:10

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http://a.msn.com/01/en-us/BB15p67C?ocid=se

And then there's this. As if to say, what he said...

Chariotoflove > facw 06/12/2020 at 22:16

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I am an advocate of camera enforcement, despite having been caught by one. But you have to take into account what the public will accept. What is absurd is t o make traffic cameras a lynch pin of your enforcement policy when they electorate has definitively slapped it down. The state of Texas had traffic cameras for a good long spell. They saw the revenue it brought it to their communities . They saw the decrease in crashes at intersections. They still smashed it from the law books. So sure, educate and lobby , but don’t count on it. You have to find something else that will work while you’re trying change minds. Otherwise, you’ve accomplished nothing.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja: 06/12/2020 at 22:16

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People can change.

Chariotoflove > vondon302 06/12/2020 at 22:17

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I sympathize. It was tough for me too.

Chariotoflove > dumpsterfire! 06/12/2020 at 22:19

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That was luck, plain and simple. In my mind, it argues neither for or against traffic stops as a policy. I’m just glad fortune handed society a break that time.

Chariotoflove > DipodomysDeserti 06/12/2020 at 22:25

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A tool or technique can be used for good or for bad. If traffic stops are used by racist cops to harass minorities, does that mean all traffic stops are for the purpose of advancing racism? Does that exclude their legitimate use for law enforcement that protects the community?

I know you’re a gun owner. There are many people who say that guns are bad because they are used to kill people, and we should ban all private gun ownership. But not all gun use is to kill fellow humans. There are plenty of uses that help our lives. So, just as guns should not all be banned because they could be used for evil, not all traffic stops should be banned. If you want to make an argument for banning a traffic stop, you have to do better. You have to show that it’s an intrinsically bad policy that cannot be employed for the good of the community. That was not done in this article.

Chariotoflove > Spasoje 06/12/2020 at 22:26

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Glad to take a bullet for a fellow opponaut!

Chariotoflove > This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja: 06/12/2020 at 22:27

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Now I want ice cream.

This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja: > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/12/2020 at 22:27

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I know it. Just look at Barry Cooper.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Cooper_(political_activist)

Chariotoflove > smobgirl 06/12/2020 at 22:30

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I don’t like that. If they were having trouble with DUIs in that area, or it was a high risk time like New Year’s Eve, then I can see it. But setting up just to get illegals is wrong. It’s also illegal. I don’t have any problem with telling the Feds if local cops happen to come across an illegal in the process of legitimate police work, but looking for immigration is the purview of the Federal government explicitly.

Chariotoflove > Svend 06/12/2020 at 22:33

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I agree with all of that. The article argued that police only misuse the tool, and there is no basis for that blanket statement. But for sure many municipalities do in this country, and we need to find ways to fix that. I am also disgusted by my fellow Texans saying that traffic cameras are unfair because it impinges on their ability to get out of breaking the laws. I got caught by one. I hated it. I paid my fine.

Chariotoflove > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) 06/12/2020 at 22:36

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The problem is that traffic stops are mostly just fishing expeditions for cops, not attempts to solve anything.

See, I agree that that happens and it has to stop. But I don’t see evidence that it’s the case for all or even most stops. I have been caught many times for speeding. Twice for not having my tag on the plate. Never did a cop try to balloon it into something else. So I know that it’s possible for a traffic stop to just be a stop.

Chariotoflove > fintail 06/12/2020 at 22:37

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For sure. Protecting the bad eggs spoils it for the good ones.

Chariotoflove > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 06/12/2020 at 22:38

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Agreed. The one addition I would make is DUI checkpoints at high risk times like New Year’s Eve. And then not to ticket people, but to get them off the road and home safely.

Chariotoflove > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 06/12/2020 at 22:40

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Some cops are just dicks. Far too many for a profession that is allowed to carry guns. I wish we had more stringent procedures for weeding them out at the academy stage.

AdamB > Chariotoflove 06/12/2020 at 22:41

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The article was garbage. Not every cop is racist. I come from a Hispanic family. I cannot drive yet but whenever parents get pulled over they are let go. Why? We respect the police and accept what happened. After seeing a clean record, they leave. Whenever any of my relatives has an interaction with police, nothing happens. Not saying that this is true for everybody, but I will add all cops we’ve come in contact with were white. I think reform is needed and better training, but can’t agree with defunding the police and take their guns. I don’t want to walk in NYC with no cops. 

Chariotoflove > This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja: 06/12/2020 at 22:41

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That was the idea behind the argument here.

Chariotoflove > kanadanmajava1 06/12/2020 at 22:43

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All true. In Texas, people seemed to think it was unfair to use camera. It was as if it’s a game to see if you can get through a red light, and police using cameras was cheating somehow, like if you’re going to catch me, you have to do it yourself. It boggled my mind.

Chariotoflove > fintail 06/12/2020 at 22:44

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That is a problem, and yes it was a racket with the contracts. Still, that doesn’t mean cameras are intrinsiclly bad. Baby got thrown out with the bath water.

smobgirl > Chariotoflove 06/12/2020 at 22:45

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I had a bit of an argument with them myself as I apparently had “bloodshot eyes” - I explained I was having an allergic reaction and was literally on my way back from buying Benadryl and Alaway at the grocery store. Showed the bag and time-stamped receipt. Sneezed a few times for good measure.

Well where do you live?

About 4 blocks that way.

Are you sure? (at the time, my neighborhood was about 90% Hispanic and I’m not )

Yeah. See the address is on my license [in his hands] right there.

That pissed him off but the line of cars behind me was growing and he didn’t have a legit reason to keep me. So he ordered me to go straight home and they’d be watching me. 

Chariotoflove > fintail 06/12/2020 at 22:46

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Many of our friends on the Kinja blogs would say you are the problem. You need to start apologizing more.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Chariotoflove 06/12/2020 at 22:47

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Taking the points in order:

- Yes.

- No.

- Yes, and subsequently no.

- youtube.com/watch?v=2BKdbxX1pDw

- Once you’re stopped you’ll find the assholes. It’s a hard sell to me that the officer saw you were black through the radar gun and decided to pull you over for a power trip.

- Yes. And as for a solution, do away with quotas for low hanging fruit and concentrate on actual, in context, dangerous behavior. Holding up traffic at 10 under on a 2-lane road and then pouncing when someone breaks the limit in order to pass SAFELY, for example, is hardly promoting safe driving.

- Fuck. That.

- Asinine.

- Not on my dime, thanks.

Chariotoflove > Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle 06/12/2020 at 22:48

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That’s potentially a well-controlled experiment that can yield useful data. I hope someone is tabulating everything carefully.

And I would never have put Minneapolis in my top 10 list of American cities with racially motivated violence or police abuse. Strange times  we live in.

Chariotoflove > Exage03040 @ opposite-lock.com 06/12/2020 at 22:50

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Pretty much all the Kinj a blogs have become or are becoming echo chambers on socio-politic al issues as far as I have paid attention. I haven’t followed the new editor closely. I have noticed that he hasn’t taken much of a hand in improving the quality of automotive related material yet.

Chariotoflove > zipfuel 06/12/2020 at 22:54

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It is worth considering. I just think a taking an obviously biased and logically lazy argument like this article hurts that goal. There is some stuff you do just for volume on the site or maybe just to make a what if thought problem.  But then there is stuff that you take more time for to get right. This was written in that tone, and didn’t live up to the standard, in my view.

fintail > Chariotoflove 06/12/2020 at 22:56

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If one can prove everything is above board - yellow lights not shortened, lights sequenced optimally, no greased palms contracts, then sure.

But by past experience, it’s kind of guilty until proven innocent, at least for me.  There are only a few cameras in my city, one at a notoriously bad intersection.  As people here are fairly literate, the city knew that if they played any games with the lights, people would catch on fast, and would scream about it- so that problem hasn’t existed.  I have no issue with those cameras.

I’d love to see a lot more signed crosswalk and distracted driver enforcement, but that requires more work.

Chariotoflove > AdamB 06/12/2020 at 22:56

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In NYC? That would be suicide in many areas without cops.

fintail > Chariotoflove 06/12/2020 at 22:57

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Sorry

Chariotoflove > smobgirl 06/12/2020 at 22:58

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I wonder sometimes if cops get irritated because they don’t want to be out doing this duty, and they start getting combative. If that’s the kind of person a cop is, they should take him off that duty or off the force. Cops being dicks hurts everyone. Some of them are just jerks on a power trip.  Those need to be prevented from ever getting a badge.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Svend 06/12/2020 at 23:00

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Oh, but it is revenue. There is no reason to set a quota other than revenue. Otherwise presumably you’d simply accept less tickets written as a sign your enforcement was taking effect.

And I take exception to your speeding point. They are set for a reason, but it happens to be money. Case in point, our highways here, engineered to be safe for 1970's vehicles to drive at 70-80mph. Lowered to 60mph during the oil crisis. Proved to be lucrative. Never raised. Or, school zones with NO ATTEMPT at physical traffic calming measures, at the bottom of a hill, with ample cover for cops... And the school half a kilometer off the road and well fenced off. The speed limits aren’t set by engineers as they should be, they’re set based on the current weight of the public wallet. And as for lobbying the gov’t to change it... Doesn’t do shit. Just ignore it and get on with your life. Here’s a sign—if the cops don’t even bother with enforcement until 20kmh over, because they know it’s a waste of time, BECAUSE THE COURTS ARE CLOGGED AS IT IS AND THE JUDGES THROW OUT ANYTHING WITHIN 20 % OF THE LIMIT, you might have an issue.

And my standard disclaimer, don’t take this as a bitter speed demon sick of getting caught. In a decade of driving I’ve had one ticket. Over 8 years ago. This BS (especially the Ontario variety)  just really grinds my gears.

Smallbear out.

Chariotoflove > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 06/12/2020 at 23:01

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Once in my life, I actually had a city cop tell me he couldn’t let me go with a warning because he was stationed there to bring in the tickets, and he had to produce the goods to show he was doing his job. He didn’t actually say “making the quota for $$”, but that's what that means. He was nice to me though.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Chariotoflove 06/12/2020 at 23:07

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And here we arrive at a grey area... Who to believe?

On the one hand, there’s a lot of unjustified racism claims that get floated these days.

On the other, there are legitimate complaints about the cops behavior.

For things like DUI checkpoints, I’m inclined to say that if they stop drunks, good, and if they catch people who shouldn’t be here, also good, and if they have REASON TO BELIEVE that there’s a concentration of such people in an area and that’s the easiest way to get hold of them then so what (should be noted that I mean this in regards to all illicit behavior, drug dealers, etc... Covert methods have their place), but hen that's easy for me to say...

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Chariotoflove 06/12/2020 at 23:12

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Second paragraph, just like to jump in as a neutral Canadian... Best argument against gum control is that it’s almost always illegal firearms used in s hootings. So what’s the point of punishing the guys who follow the rules?

I say this as someone who it doesn't matter to anyways. Don't and won't own a gun, enjoy shooting them but CO2 is good enough for me, understand why they make people uncomfortable. But honestly don't understand how anything beyond registering handguns and having background checks will help anything. If someone wants to shoot someone, it's going to happen.

Chariotoflove > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 06/12/2020 at 23:15

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Very interesting article. Lots of good stuff there. It kind of ricochets off into idealist land toward the end, and after being so cynical for most of the early part, that’s kind of weird. 

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > facw 06/12/2020 at 23:15

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Fuck that.

https://oppositelock.kinja.com/fuck-speed-cameras-1828886182

Modify the roads to encourage compliance with what you think is safe, and the job will mostly take care of itself. Any traffic stops at that point will be directed against  black and white (no pun intended), definite offenses.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Chariotoflove 06/12/2020 at 23:15

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https://oppositelock.kinja.com/fuck-speed-cameras-1828886182

Chariotoflove > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 06/12/2020 at 23:16

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That's why we need more scrutiny and accountability. Which is easy to say, but harder to do.

Chariotoflove > gettingoldercarguy 06/12/2020 at 23:18

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It’s an interesting idea that is brought up in the article Rusty references. I don’t know if it would work in practice or just drive cops away from being cops and make policing too expensive for towns to support.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Chariotoflove 06/12/2020 at 23:19

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This is fax.

Chariotoflove > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 06/12/2020 at 23:21

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I just use them on occasion for target practice, and I borrow my brother’s guns for that. Many hunt, but I don’t, and I’ll never buy a hand gun. Still, I don’t see why we can’t have guns as long as we make sure criminals or mentally unstable people buy them (in as much as we can).