FortNine on Harley

"gmctavish needs more space" (gmctavish) 05/17/2020 at 16:05 • Filed to: two wheels good

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Excellent as always

Goggles Pizzano > gmctavish needs more space 05/17/2020 at 16:14

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Is this the same team that did the story on car tires on motorcycles?

Also, NYSE (HOG). lol

gmctavish needs more space > Goggles Pizzano 05/17/2020 at 16:17

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Indeed it is, as well as plenty of other unreasonably good productions

jimz > gmctavish needs more space 05/17/2020 at 16:19

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who is FortNine?

winterlegacy, here 'till the end > gmctavish needs more space 05/17/2020 at 16:57

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If Harley wants to survive, they need to make smaller bikes at lower prices that they can market hard to the 20-somethings and 30-somethings. 300cc to 600cc, something you can putz around town with without being the annoying BRAAAAMP BRAAAMP I’M AN “OUTLAW” of the rest of their lineup.

I mean, that was sort of the point of Buell, but given that they put the Livewire in their main lineup, it seems they’re not as afraid to put something more sportbikey in their repetoire.  If they throw in some streetfighter style bikes they might just hit it out of the park.

gmctavish needs more space > jimz 05/17/2020 at 16:58

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The guy who made the video I posted 

Exage03040 @ opposite-lock.com > jimz 05/17/2020 at 17:37

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Additionally to the videos, they’re a website. Sort of the RevZilla of Canada with online shopping for gear, apparel and non specific or universal parts (like oil, tires, mirrors etc. )

Roadkilled > jimz 05/17/2020 at 17:59

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https://fortnine.ca/en/our-story

FortNine is an online retailer for motorsport accessories in Canada. The presenter in their video series is not “FortNine”, but he does a good job of steering business their way by getting more people interested in riding.

jimz > winterlegacy, here 'till the end 05/17/2020 at 18:11

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they were heading that way, but without knowing why they showed Levatich the door there’s no indication what’s coming.  the sport and adv bikes are obviously going to be launched, but as I said the last time someone brought them up- when their largest shareholder is a firm with “Asset Management” in its name, all bets are off.  If Impala Asset Management wants returns now, they’re going to push for a last big “soak the boomers” effort.  which isn’t going to work.  a lot of those folks currently own their last bike.  

Exage03040 @ opposite-lock.com > gmctavish needs more space 05/17/2020 at 18:14

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It’s a good rundown on it. I mean really to go over every small contribution to the decline would take hours.

He mentioned the XR1200 but not the V-Rod or the mishandling of Buell. Or the fact that Harley owners pretty much always ridicules the less expensive bikes (Sportser is a “Girls Bike”). They’ve been unadaptable to what happened in 2008.

And this spars into their overall culture. Back in the day it was cool to be that rebel with your cuts and bandana and work boots . However new riders are actively being taught to buy enveloping riding gear and wear it. Many new riders see it as cool to completely deck out look like a power ranger. Emulating racer such as Marquez or Rossi o r have that anonymity like the moto riding villains in movies (think cycle Samari in John Wick 3 or I lsa in later Mission Impossibles ). Low protection riding with skin in the game like squid- ing and skull caps are being  frowned upon, it’s transferring over to being uncool to new riders .

Anyways I could write a book on everything I think is wrong. I’ve detailed different aspects on Jalop A few times.

Exage03040 @ opposite-lock.com > winterlegacy, here 'till the end 05/17/2020 at 18:24

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HD dealers and owners have  always shunned any HD  bi ke that fits one or any criteria of : inexpensive, small , or different.

Now it’s sinking them.

CRider > winterlegacy, here 'till the end 05/17/2020 at 22:27

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Problem is that a 300cc Harley would make about 10 horsepower, weigh 400 lbs while costing $8k. Nobody will buy that. 

CRider > Exage03040 @ opposite-lock.com 05/17/2020 at 23:19

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While what they did to Buell  shall never be forgiven or forgotten, HD shouldn’t need another brand to keep them going. If HD was a strong enough brand on its own, they’d be doing fine without Beull (or the V-Rod, though that was a pretty neat bike when it came out).

Exage03040 @ opposite-lock.com > CRider 05/18/2020 at 00:54

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See they were strong but in that one trick pony kind of way. T hat’s both good and bad . Anytime the past 20 years they branched out with a different product even under the bar and shield the old guard has sulked, cried and actively discredited it even if it was the one of the best bikes HD has ever made . O ne of the most interesting facts is that the company isn’t solely to blame for it’s downfall , a lot of it is on the dealers and owners as well .  

I have the same mind set as you. I think they should have had a 400cc premium thumper 5-10 years ago slotted right between the Rebels in performance with a slight cost premium over the 500 (but a better looking bike) and diversified models with that 750. That whole current Street lineup needs to be junked and redone with bikes the dealers can actually sell with a straight face. I can’t fathom how KTM and BMW can crank out half decent global small bikes in India and HD is trying to pawn those slugs... I don’t blame dealers for promoting the Sportsters over them, that’s justified.

I’m still waiting for either HD or Indian to get wise that a lightweight efficient flat-tracker could make a bunch of new riders happy if executed properly.

I don’t think the LiveWire was the correct focus for them last 7-8 years . T he Bronx and Pan America are certainly welcome, and better with regards to market diversification , but they won’t be any sort of saving grace either.

sn4cktimes > gmctavish needs more space 05/18/2020 at 01:21

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I was just going to post this but thought I’d check first. Good take on HD. I don’t know how I think about the CEO getting da boot on principle. I don’t think the plan itself to get more riders was necessarily bad per se . I think their methods could have been okay if they we more willing to go the e xtra step and try to lose the boomer-biker gang look and go more euro or sophisticated. There’s no issue with attracting more young / female riders. But when that image directly interferes with another image of thugs, things don’t mesh.

Ma ybe even just make more cheap, smaller displacement and fun machines . Get peppy, not rumbly. Most riders don’t NEED more than 400cc if a machine is tuned well. 1200cc bikes.... that seems terribly excessive. I ride a 350 Enduro thumper and the thing is fun as hell.

I will never own a Harley, not because I think they’re terrible bikes, or because I intrinsically hate cruisers. But I hate almost everything that their brand seems to stand for. And that puts me off the brand, even if I ever considered a cruiser.

sn4cktimes > CRider 05/18/2020 at 01:23

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Years before I had a bike license but was considering it I almost pulled the trigger on a Buell... They were very cool bikes.

CRider > Exage03040 @ opposite-lock.com 05/18/2020 at 02:43

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The problem with downsizing is that HD engines make no power; they sell on torque, and they’d need to develop entirely new engines that deliver power in new ways to crack the sub 500cc market. And their dealers wouldn’t know how to sell them; they already do a terrible job on anything smaller than a Sportster 1200 . How do you sell a bike that’s happiest above 5,000 RPM if none of your customers have ever taken their bike above 5,000 RP M? “RPMs is bad for engines!” they’ll cry, memories of blowing up SBCs in the 1970s fresh in their minds.

The Livewire is the biggest WTF motor cyc le in a long time. They could have just bought Zero ten years ago, fed them a lttle money over the past decade and used their R&D to make a really nice HD electric bike that’s actually competitive while selling Zeros to young people not looking for a top-end luxury heavyweight .

The Panamerica is going to need to be something special to compete in a market against Multistradas and KTM Superadventure bikes making 150+ hp. I don't think HD can pull it off. They're playing a completely different game with that bike and people who buy $20k+ ADVs want more than pretty paint. 

CRider > sn4cktimes 05/18/2020 at 02:44

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You and a lot of other people. IIRC Buell was actually profitable and had a much younger demo than HD.  T hey only got killed because the CEO (who had never thrown a leg over a bike in his life) didn’t like sport bikes.

Exage03040 @ opposite-lock.com > CRider 05/18/2020 at 03:53

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Well they finally got around to the liquid cooling with the Revolution engine and with Porsche assist . I mean either of those things would set them off, both pushed them right over the edge.

I mean really I think they should look at doing a single cyl Rev-X (Revolution Min?) at 374cc but revert back to the DOHC head. Even with SOHC they spin up to past 8k. They should slightly top the Rebel 300 for top power but have more grunt. The issue I have with the 500cc Rev-X is that it’s simply a smaller bore 750 so the case and dimensions are roughly the same, and I think they could do with a few bikes on a smaller frame than the Street.

See I can appreciate the LiveWire for the R&D and respect for HD going it alone. But, you’re right, HD could have just bought the test and done some more studying to perfect it. I have a hard time deciding if electric was the right move. In many ways it fits them, but there’s so many it doesn’t. None of the other manufactures on solid footing seemed that gung ho to rush into the development. For good reason short term it seems.

Both are going to need to be special . I don’t think people are going to be too keen on big adventure bikes the next couple years (or rather big bikes in general) and it’s a saturated market . The Brox looks squared off to go against the Ducati Monster but I see a match, not a beatdown . I wouldn’t be surprised if the Monster has some updates soon.  

pip bip - choose Corrour > gmctavish needs more space 05/18/2020 at 05:48

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people need to let Harley-Davidson die

OhCrikeyTheRozzers > pip bip - choose Corrour 05/18/2020 at 14:25

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I second your hot take and will add some more . For me, Harley is sort of like Hummer—they both offer a very expensive product that provides a very specific image to the owner. Your average Harley rider is no more an outlaw biker, or even someone who particularly cares about riding , than the average Hummer owner wa s a soldier or even someone who enjoyed off-road driving. They’re lifestyle brands that had a good run catering to a certain generation *cough, boomers* with money to burn for a given point in time. That time has now passed.

Moreover, they’re not going to be able to ever appeal to a new customer base because they’ve spent decades pushing a single image that doesn’t include women, young riders, city commuters, beginning riders, ADV enthusiasts, sport bike riders, or really anyone other than older dudes playing biker dress-up. These other groups all long ago got the message that Harley (and its owners, for that part) was pushing and looked to other brands that welcomed them with open arms .

Meanwhile, those other companies expanded their model ranges and put really good motorcycles out there for reasonable prices while Harley just kept repacking the same basic product over and over again. This message spread big time, and anybody on the street can tell you what a “Harley rider” means to them, while I would struggle to even start to generalize a “Triumph rider” or a “Honda rider” or even a “Ducati rider.” Those other brands will survive because they mean different things to different people and have competitive products in all categories, which ebb and flow over time . Meanwhile, Harley will fade away because they only represent one type of rider that is by and large hanging up their riding gear (er, bandana and wrap around sunglasses)  forever.

sn4cktimes > CRider 05/18/2020 at 14:56

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Yeah, it was a shame. They really could have had that “alternate” market share that they need built up by now. But hey, still to heavy rumble boats. That’ll last forever , right?

CRider > Exage03040 @ opposite-lock.com 05/18/2020 at 19:31

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Harley hsan’t made a single cylinder bike since (c hecks internet ) 1978. I’d be shocked if they started doing that again now, and I’m not convinced that HD needs to cater to the entry level market. Ducati doesn’t, and they’re doing fine, as is Triumph and BMW. Harley can maintain their big bike/big V- twin image, and their market position as a premium brand, but they need to actually make their bikes more interesting and cheaper than they are now. HD can just be an aspirational brand and let the Japanese fill the gaps . If they wanted to fill those gaps, they should have kept Buell and I’m not sure if they can bring that kind of brand up again today. They don’t have the expertise or the money to do that. Small bikes have a lot of competition and thin margins, two things HD can’t historically deal with.

If they actually come out with more electric bikes, then the Live Wire will be seen as a masterful move to get ahead of the market. I fear that e-bike development will be scrapped after they realize the high immediate cost and small immediate payoff. Electrics are definitely coming, so hop efully HD can estabilish some legitimacy in that market, even if their bike costs  twice what it should. 

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > gmctavish needs more space 05/18/2020 at 21:29

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The dumb part is with how long harleys history is, they could have launched cafe racer or adventure bike. just pull up and old photo from the 20s oe 30s and build a story along that. their ad deprtment would actually have to do something