Project For Sale: F-4 Phantom II

"For Sweden" (rallybeetle) 05/04/2020 at 12:36 • Filed to: McDonnell-Douglas F-4 Phantom, McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II, Phantom, Phantom II, F-4 Phantom, F-4 Phantom II, F-4, McDonnell Douglas, For sale, Planelopnik, Aviation, Projects

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Runs and flies, 85% complete.Comes with extra engines. $3,250,000.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

PyroHoltz f@h Oppo 261120 > For Sweden 05/04/2020 at 12:48

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NP if they kept the munitions installed and maybe I’d consider this....otherwise it’s CP.

lone_liberal > For Sweden 05/04/2020 at 12:50

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One sec, checking my pilot certifications. Damn no good. Mostly because I don’t have a pilot’s license but even if I did where do you go to get certified in a damn F-4?

Also the site’s name is Trade-A-Plane. What do you trade for this? It should be on BaT. Bring a Tug. 

For Sweden > lone_liberal 05/04/2020 at 12:51

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It has two seats. There’s plenty of retired fighter jocks to teach you how to fly it.

TheJWT > For Sweden 05/04/2020 at 12:53

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trade for a dirtbike?

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > For Sweden 05/04/2020 at 12:54

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*checking under couch cushions*

Just Jeepin' > For Sweden 05/04/2020 at 12:55

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https://oppositelock.kinja.com/someone-s-getting-ready-for-the-zombie-apocalypse-1842794073

SiennaMan > lone_liberal 05/04/2020 at 12:57

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I have an old Sienna.   I won't even ask for cash back on the deal..  lol

ttyymmnn > For Sweden 05/04/2020 at 12:59

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What model? That nose tells me it’s an early one. 

SiennaMan > For Sweden 05/04/2020 at 13:00

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 It makes me wonder,  how much does it cost to keep one of these in the air? (ie just the cost of fuel and ground maintenance..  I bet it's eye watering..)  

For Sweden > TheJWT 05/04/2020 at 13:01

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The dirt bike will have longer engine tear down intervals

For Sweden > ttyymmnn 05/04/2020 at 13:03

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I don’t know.  Searching the N-number returns a Eurocopter.

For Sweden > SiennaMan 05/04/2020 at 13:03

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It requires all the money

ClassicDatsunDebate > For Sweden 05/04/2020 at 13:08

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No Shark mouth....CP

ttyymmnn > For Sweden 05/04/2020 at 13:14

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Hmm, sounds fishy.

DarkCreamyBeer > ttyymmnn 05/04/2020 at 13:15

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This appears to be 4th F4H-1/F-4A assuming the BUAER number on the tail (1453 10) is correct: http://www.joebaugher.com/navy_serials/thirdseries18.html

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > SiennaMan 05/04/2020 at 13:16

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It was phased out in the 70/80s   due to the high fuel costs. 

ttyymmnn > For Sweden 05/04/2020 at 13:17

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Enhance.....

F4H-1F s/n 145310 was delivered to the U.S. Navy in 1959 as the 11th pre-production Phantom. It was part of Operation Sageburner which set the low-altitude speed record at 902 mph at 125 feet as part of the U.S. Navy’s 50th Anniversary of Naval Aviation in 1961. This is the only flight capable Phantom that can be owned, operated, and flown by a private individual/organization.

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/24850533/1959-mcdonnell-douglas-f4h-1f

Sounds like this is a rare bird indeed.

ttyymmnn > DarkCreamyBeer 05/04/2020 at 13:21

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We probably hit Publish at the same time. I found more information and added it to the thread .

TheRealBicycleBuck > SiennaMan 05/04/2020 at 13:23

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You can have your very own 40-minute F-4 flight experience (instructor included) for ~$15k.

https://www.collingsfoundation.org/vmf-flight-experiences-flight-training-programs/

That puts the operating costs in the range of $10-$15k per hour .

Snuze: Needs another Swede > SiennaMan 05/04/2020 at 13:37

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According to Wikipedia an F-4E ( which has newer J-79-17 engines vs. this plane’s J-79-15s) has a ferry range of 1,677 miles and a maximum fuel capacity of 3,335 gallons. That works out to about 0.5 MPG, and that’s at cruising speed, which isn’t listed but is likely high sub-sonic, so probably ~600 MPH. The aircraft is capable of 1,470 MPH @ 40,000 ft, which I imagine uses substantially more fuel.

Jet-A fuel currently averages $5.25 / gal at airports near me (Wash. DC area). That means it costs, in ferry configuration, about $2.63 per mile, or $1,575/hr at 600 MPH. Jet fuel prices seem to vary quite a bit though, with the range being $3.70 up to almost $8.00 / gal in my area .

Roadkilled > For Sweden 05/04/2020 at 13:38

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It’s a good price, but the fuel and maintenance will cost a lot. The GE J79 is a relatively common engine, so parts and maintenance won’t be horrible. However, the F4 wasn’t designed for fuel efficiency. It was designed with the philosophy that, with enough power, even a brick can fly. You would want to use the afterburners sparingly unless you don’t mind a fuel bill in the high four figures for each flight.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > For Sweden 05/04/2020 at 13:46

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My dad actually flew those, later ones, not sure he would want it though.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > For Sweden 05/04/2020 at 13:46

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If I buy this can I name it the Phant om Menace ?

For Sweden > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 05/04/2020 at 13:48

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user314 > For Sweden 05/04/2020 at 13:53

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Looks like someone at TAP typo’d the listing (itself not a great sign). The plane was registered under N815WF , but that expired in 3/20.

Looking at Platinum’s   listing , there’s no avionics, the engines need overhauled, and it’s been under resto for the last decade.

Hard CP from me. 

ttyymmnn > For Sweden 05/04/2020 at 13:56

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benn454 > For Sweden 05/04/2020 at 14:01

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McD -D Engineer A: I bet you $100 you can’t make a brick fly.

McD-D Engineer B: Hold my thrust.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/04/2020 at 14:05

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Then add in the maintenance costs...

user314 > ttyymmnn 05/04/2020 at 14:08

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Oh hey, Tyler wrote about this very plane back in 2018. Seems this thing has been up for a while, but no one’s bitten.   

TheRealBicycleBuck > ttyymmnn 05/04/2020 at 14:09

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Are they sure about that? The Collins Foundation offers a flight experience in an F-4. One that is, you know, currently flight-worthy.

https://www.collingsfoundation.org/vmf-flight-experiences-flight-training-programs/

Darkbrador > ttyymmnn 05/04/2020 at 14:15

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902 mph at 125 ft ... that’s 1323 ft/s of horizontal travel at only 125 ft above the hard deck ... uh ... 

Snuze: Needs another Swede > TheRealBicycleBuck 05/04/2020 at 14:30

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Ooof!

I found a Congressional armed service committee testimony from 1981. It’s not very straight forward, but the way I read it, both the Air Force and Navy found that the engines needed to be removed 4 times per 1000 flight hours. That equates to once per 250 flight hours. In 1979, the year these figures were taken from, a depot level engine service cost just shy of $40,000. Adjusting for inflation that’s about $142,000 in 2020 dollars. So $142,000 every 250 flight hours is $1,136 per hour for an airframe. And that’s just depot level service, I assume there are periodic major overhauls that are accomplished at the manufacturer or something. Also it’s hard to say what that $40k/142k figure encompasses. Is that just parts and transportation cost or does the military figure in labor too? And how do they cost labor - in 1979 I imagine even IMF depots were mostly manned by enlisted/officer personnel and not contractors, so the labor rate would be much lower.

It wouldn’t surprise me if the real numbers, in today’ s dolla rs, worked out to be closer to $3,000 to 5,000 per airframe. Then you have to consider inspection and repair work on the airframe, hydraulics, etc. I bet you can average that out to at least another $1,000 per hour.

So conservatively I’m thinking $1,500 in fuel, $3,000 for engines, $1,000 for other, so $5,500 / hr. The more r ealistic numbers are probably $2,000 in fuel, $5,000 for engines, and maybe $1,500 to $2,000 in misc., so probably closer to $10,000 / hr.

ttyymmnn > user314 05/04/2020 at 14:30

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With its Sageburner backstory, and preproduction history, that would be a great museum piece. 

ttyymmnn > TheRealBicycleBuck 05/04/2020 at 14:38

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I was wondering about this F-4 that I photographed back in 2012:

But it turns out it is actually a QF-4 maintained by the 82nd ATRS. I’ll have to do some poking around to see if they shot it down. 

ttyymmnn > Darkbrador 05/04/2020 at 14:38

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Better be some flat ground....

Darkbrador > ttyymmnn 05/04/2020 at 14:43

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Being the Navy, I assume the “ ground” is the ocean, but yeah. You blink you crash.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/04/2020 at 14:45

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I wonder what the annual costs. I hear that most guys flying complex planes with retracts budget $10-$20k just to complete the annual inspection. Part of that is the retract leak-down test. They put the plane on jacks, cycle the landing gear a few times, then put them up and see if the gear stay in the up position for at least 24 hours. 

user314 > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/04/2020 at 14:47

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So a Kawasaki Ninja ZX-6R per hour, mas o menos . Mind you, that’s on top of the initial purchase equal to a Koeniggggsenisseggsegnignigsegigiseg, and a McLaren Elva to finish the restoration.

ttyymmnn > Darkbrador 05/04/2020 at 14:48

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Not much sagebrush in the ocean.....  ;)

Snuze: Needs another Swede > TheRealBicycleBuck 05/04/2020 at 14:54

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I’m so far out of the loop on aviation stuff. I took lessons for a while about 20 years ago. At the time I want to say I was paying around $150/hr - about $110/hr for a Cessna or Tampico wet, and $40/hr for the instructor. Of course it took about 2 hr of lessons to get 1 flight hr because of pre-flights, etc. I figured that $110/hr covered the plane, maintenance, and the company made some money on it. But I never looked into what complex aircraft cost, but I know it pretty much grows exponentially as you move up in complexity.

So we’re anywhere from $5- 10k per hour, plus $20k+ for annual (you know a jet like this is going to be on the high side).

So if I sell my Volvo 850 and get what I want for it, and apply our tax return this year ( which was a bit more than expected) and convert to a strictly Ramen diet , I think I could afford... not even the annual inspection. If I wasn’t on the hook for the annual I could afford slightly under 2 flight hours, though.  Sign me up !!!

Darkbrador > ttyymmnn 05/04/2020 at 15:01

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You’d be surprised ...

TheRealBicycleBuck > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/04/2020 at 15:07

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What’s amazing is that the cost per hour for training hasn’t changed that much. I paid $110/hr wet for a Piper Cherokee 140 and $50/hr for the instructor. A used Cherokee is $30k to $60k, depending on condition and avionics. The Baron rented for $350/hr. That was a twin with constant speed props and retracts.

Even on a Ramen diet, I couldn’t afford to fly the Baron enough to get the certification.

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 05/04/2020 at 15:08

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More likely it was because it was an old platform replaced by more capable aircraft. The F-14 that replaced it wasn’t exactly a fuel-sipper either, nor was the F-15.

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > For Sweden 05/04/2020 at 15:12

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I dunno, these things were built from 1959 to 1979. Pretty sure I’d rather have the newest model with all the improvements. You know, cupholders, USB ports, that kind of stuff. 

Snuze: Needs another Swede > SiennaMan 05/04/2020 at 15:13

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I think the RealBicycleBuck and I are getting pretty close on this one. You’re probably looking at anywhere from $5-10k per flight hour for fuel and maintenance, plus an additional $20k+ per year for annual inspection, plus hangar rental, plus other misc stuff we probably haven’t thought of.

And that $5-10k flight cost is based on approximately ferry speeds/ranges and fuel prices in the $5-8/gal range. Ferry speed is probably high sub-sonic, I’m guessing 600 MPH.

If you want to go supersonic... whoa boy, y ou better sit down. The J79 makes over 17,000 lbf of thrust, and needs 2 lb fuel per lbf of thrust per hour to do it. And you have 2 of these bad boys, which works out to 1, 168 lbf, or 174 gallons per minute . At the average fuel price, that means $914/minute or $54,840 PER FLIGHT HOUR! The good news is max fuel capacity is only 3,335 gallons so you can only go supersonic for 19.2 minutes, meaning even if you try your hardest you would only expend $17,518 on a relatively short, sub-20 minute flight.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > TheRealBicycleBuck 05/04/2020 at 15:21

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F lying definitely isn’t cheap. I started when I was a teenager, before I could drive even. I was on track to get my pilots license before my full drivers license (my state had a graduated licensing program). Then I discovered girls. In retrospect I should have stuck to flying.

Also, speaking of affording things , I ran the supersonic, balls to the wall numbers. At full tilt, 174 gallons, or $914 per minute just in fuel cost, which works out to $54,840 per hour. That’s worst case and doesn’t factor in take-off, climb out, landing, etc. It’s more like “magically appear at 40,000 feet with full tanks, shove the throttles forward, and wait til fuel runs out. ” So not realistic, but gives some idea of the “true” cost in fuel to do anything militarily useful (i.e. fun!) with the aircraft.

Also, with full tanks in ferry configuration, there’s a bit less than 20 minuts of fuel at full throttle. So that’s probably also not practical (i.e. drag limiting, etc.) but again, just wanted to get some idea of the upper end. 

TheRealBicycleBuck > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/04/2020 at 15:33

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Young men and women often distract each other from more important things. :)

f86sabre > ttyymmnn 05/04/2020 at 15:48

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Would hoon. All day. Everyday.

What I think I would be doing...

What I would likely be doing...

ttyymmnn > f86sabre 05/04/2020 at 16:35

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Kind of expensive for a DD. Love those gifs, BTW. And the provenance for this aircraft is amazing. 

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom 05/04/2020 at 16:57

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True but you also had the lightweight fighter program with the f16 and 18 to lower costs.

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 05/04/2020 at 18:04

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I can see the F-16 as it’s a single-engine light fighter, but the F-18 is a twin so not sure how much was saved with that program.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom 05/04/2020 at 18:46

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I think it still dropped from a bit over 5k . /hour to a bit over 4k lbs/hour. The loss in specs was reduced fuel load 3k lbs an d weapons payload.    

Urambo Tauro > For Sweden 05/04/2020 at 20:40

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One of my favorites as a kid. Come to think of it, I think my first model airplane might have actually been a F-4. The arrangement of the engines and fins at the tail on these has always fascinated me.

Chariotoflove > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/05/2020 at 00:01

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Yeah, but you’d make all that back on birthday parties, easy. Right?

Chariotoflove > user314 05/05/2020 at 00:02

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Well now we know what 15% is missing.

Grindintosecond > For Sweden 05/05/2020 at 00:05

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Collins foundation has an A model it does the airshow season with. $9,000 per flight hour operation costs.

Grindintosecond > SiennaMan 05/05/2020 at 00:06

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I replied elsewhere on this and then you asked. $9k/hr according to the Collins Foundation who runs an A model.

benn454 > Darkbrador 05/05/2020 at 15:36

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 Better have your balls screwed on tight for that flight. 

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > For Sweden 05/11/2020 at 18:14

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BTW, there’s a Olympus Concorde engine for sale on Ebay right now... I’m sure it’s an easy motor swap into this....

For Sweden > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 05/11/2020 at 18:15

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Will it fit in a Learjet 45?