First drum brake job has not gone well

"Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo" (akioohtori) 10/26/2020 at 12:27 • Filed to: None

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My friend Taylor is in town this week so we can do a week of marathon wrenching on his much loved, oft neglected !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . So far the results have been... medium.

The plan was do knock out a laundry list of functional and cosmetic improvements including but not limited to:

Rear brakes (drums, shoes, springs, cylinders, flex hose)

Front brake flex hoses

Clutch flex hose

Clutch slave cylinder

fix coolant leak (unknown source)

fix clutch system leak (unknown source)

fix electrical fault with turn signals

replace all window rubbers

replace passenger side door handle

replace rear tailpipe

Plus the ongoing list of scope creep

Pull bench seat for reupholstery

Leak check intake system

rust mitigation

general clean

So far we managed to get the coolant leak identified and hopefully fixed, it was leaking from where the heater hoses penetrate the firewall and appeared to the the case of a poorly seated hose clamp, and the clutch leak identified and fixed, which was the slave cylinder leaking at the hose junction.

With such great successes, we figured we’d move on to the rear drum brakes, which were allegedly “pretty bad” according to Taylor’s shop.

They were, indeed, pretty bad.

The first problem we ran in to was that we couldn’t get the drum off for some reason. The FSM on this truck is terribad , but suggested we thread an M8 bolt into a hole in the drum to force it off.

So we did.

And it was very difficult.

And some of the brake hardware self-destructed in the process.

But we got it off.

To reveal the horror beneath.

I neglected to take pictures, but the shoes were bare, the cylinder was moist, and we couldn’t figure out how to get the springs out. Still, we persevered and got everything disassembled eventually. And we didn’t cut any springs out of anger and frustration no sir we did not.

Which is when we discovered we were sent the wrong shoes.

At my suggestion Taylor bought a Centric brake kit from RockAuto. The price was good and it came with everything needed to fully rehab the rear bakes, minus the flex hose. Unfortunately it appears the shoes and hardware are incorrect. Either they’re for a 4WD version (his D21 is 2WD) or for a heavy duty one... we’re not sure. Either way, there was a 0% chance these were going to work. After a little sleuthing we found the right pads and hardware on Amazon for about $30 total and, since we’re low on time, he got those on order and will sort out the money issue with RockAuto later.

In the interim we’re planning on pulling the door cards to start work on the rubbers, handles, and speakers.

Wish us luck...

dogisbadob > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 10/26/2020 at 12:32

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coated drums are awesome :o)

good luck

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 10/26/2020 at 12:33

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rust mitigation

general clean

Goodbye money and time!

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 10/26/2020 at 12:35

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Wrenchfest, Nissan crapcan edition! Good luck with that! It looks like a whole lot of pain fun. Drum brakes aren’t something that I want to ever have to mess with but my 2012 does indeed have them. I can’t believe how long drums have held on in base trims. 

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 10/26/2020 at 12:38

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I figured out an easy way to get stuck drums off. Assuming the setup is similar to my VWs, which is probably not since FWD vs RWD.

Remove the wheel, then pop off the grease cap and all the wheel bearing stuff. Basically just leaving the stub, inner bearing, and drum. Reinstall the wheel and bolt it down. Now kick the shit out of the wheel like you would if you were trying to remove just a stuck wheel. Drum comes off. Now you can embrace the hell within.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/26/2020 at 12:41

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My 2012 LT has them as well (I think you had to get a 2LT or LTZ to get rear discs). I’ve never touched them and they are just fine. 

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 10/26/2020 at 12:51

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The last drum job I did was on a Tercel. Had to replace everything. Dust shields, pistons (they are called pistons there, right?), springs, shoes, other stuff I can’t remember). A truly annoying design and because the shoes last so long compared to pads for discs, they’re never inspected nor adjusted/serviced for years, then when you have to crack it open X owners later, it’s quite a disappointment.

feather-throttle-not-hair > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 10/26/2020 at 12:51

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Drum brakes are my nemesis.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Snuze: Needs another Swede 10/26/2020 at 13:02

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Yeah I haven’t had to do anything to them and last time I had the car in to the shop the only wear part I was advised to check were the front pads. It’s been like a year and they are still fine. Turns out driving a light car really carefully is kind to brake pads! Drums are low maintenance but when you actually do have to mess with them they’re kind of a PITA.

MM54 > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 10/26/2020 at 13:10

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wheel cylinders

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > MM54 10/26/2020 at 13:10

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[snaps fingers ] Thank you!

I won’t remember this.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 10/26/2020 at 13:11

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Drum brakes are a pain in the ass. It’s like you are sitting there with four hands and a foot trying to hold everything together while shoving the drum back on hoping you didn’t screw something up. 

MM54 > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 10/26/2020 at 13:11

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I don’t understand the general aversion to working on drum brakes, but I will agree that when the drums themselves are stuck it is an awful time.

A t-handled hook for the springs is your friend. Wear safety glasses (if it were a big truck I’d say a face shield) .

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/26/2020 at 13:18

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I finally put front pads on at 120k out of abundance of concern that I hadn’t put pads on the car in like 6 years of ownership. The ones that came off could have gone at least another 10k.

Also, I down shift, a lot. Of course now, after 150k miles, 2nd gear likes to remind me of that. If I were smarter, I’d probably learn not to do that anymore. Instead I think I need a car with a tougher transmission. 

Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo > MM54 10/26/2020 at 13:19

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I’m not against them in general, but as others have noticed since they just... work... they don’t get touched for years and years and then when you do everything is fused together and hard to work on.

Yeah... will wearing safety gear.  So much tension...

adamftw > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 10/26/2020 at 13:30

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Ya gotta back the star screw adjuster off so the shoes aren’t pressing against the drum before trying to pop them off.

Big pliers and screwdrivers, gloves, and cursing then ensues. I have drum brake tools, but I usually just get mad at them and am better doing it like a caveman.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/26/2020 at 13:39

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I got some drums you might like

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Snuze: Needs another Swede 10/26/2020 at 13:40

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Engine braking? More like engine breaking.

The automatic transmissions that came in these aren’t exactly known for their resilience so I really should service it. I bet I’m also on the original brake pads as the previous owner clearly took great care of it and presumably drove to match. Yours has a whole lot more miles than mine though. I’m right at 125k. 

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 10/26/2020 at 13:46

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Here are some other rusty drums you might like

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 10/26/2020 at 14:42

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That cheap Harbor Freight “Drum Brake Tool Kit” actually does wonders for this job...  they look weak-and-cheesy-and-useless, but they work.  Especially on those damn springs and the twist-clip-retainers

My bird IS the word > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 10/26/2020 at 14:43

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Its not one of those headscratchy kind of jobs hard, more of the hand slicy kind of hard.

smobgirl > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/26/2020 at 15:16

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That gives me nightmares.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > smobgirl 10/26/2020 at 15:18

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How so?

*gently proffers bag of rust*

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/26/2020 at 15:37

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Nah, engine is fine, it breaks on it’s own (stupid PCVs...)

In this case apparently e ngine braking = transmission breaking!

Ahh, so I had to look this up and just learned something. The first generation 1.8L Cruze got the 6T30 automatic, while the turbo cars got the 6T40.  The 6T40 is not only stronger, but also has different gear ratios than the 6T30.  Interesting.  Apparently for 2016 and later all Cruze got the 6T35 which is a beefed up version of the 6T30. 

smobgirl > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/26/2020 at 15:52

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Usually they’re under a pile of overgrown vegetation leaking something toxic and then my job gets annoying really fast. 

TheRealBicycleBuck > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 10/26/2020 at 15:54

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My first experience wrenching on a car was doing a brake job on a mid- ‘70s Cougar. That was the day I learned how to p roperly apply  a 5-lb sledge to a drum brake. 

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Snuze: Needs another Swede 10/26/2020 at 15:56

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How many miles were you getting between the PCVs breaking again? That engine really was far too finicky for a GM compact car, even if it does get crazy good mpgs for its age. I usually barely get 30 on the interstate.

That’s odd. I feel like the car really could use a stronger transmission even with only 136 apathetic horses exerting not all that much stress on it. Is the stronger transmission geared higher because of the extra torque and general focus on fuel economy for the 1.4s?

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/26/2020 at 16:00

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I’ve done 1 intake manifold and 2 valve covers in 150k miles. I haven’t had to do the turbo inlet to manifold tube yet, but those also have a valve that can fail.

My car pulls about 35 in my normal driving , which is about 75% stop and go and slow speed, back road driving, and 25% interstate and/or higher speed open road type driving. On long highway trips I’ve gotten close to 40 without a tune, and over 40 with the tune.  

The gear ratios aren’t too different, only slightly. I think the biggest difference is in the final drive ratios - the 6T30 only has 2 available (3.14 and 3.47) while the 6T40 has 5 available from 2.64 to 3.87.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 10/26/2020 at 16:10

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I’ll second SBA’s suggestion to get the HF set of drum brake service tools. It’s not that you can’t do it with normal hand tools, but a set of drum brake pliers will make the job so much easier.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Snuze: Needs another Swede 10/26/2020 at 16:11

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Remind me again what happens if the valves fail while the engine is running?

That is better fuel economy than I get on a long flattish (very much ish) interstate and you’re driving in stop and go traffic. It really was a feat of fuel economy at the time but not exactly bulletproof like the 1.8. Of course the automatic also takes a fuel economy hit on mine too.

Huh, I didn’t know they were so different. I didn’t really know it had fancy variable final drive ratios actually. It is pretty efficient for a 2010s automatic with 6 gears but would be thoroughly trounced on that front by something more modern. Those 8 and 10 speed autos can be surprisingly efficient for a torque converter. Torque converters are so well understood at this point, especially in comparison to some of the fancy dual clutch autos and other types that I’ll stick with the old tech for a little while longer while the kinks get worked out. 

Boxer_4 > MM54 10/26/2020 at 16:14

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I participated in my first drum brake job a few weeks ago (the YJ). It wasn’t so bad. The job went well and we had the proper tools, which definitely helped my  perception of drum brakes. 

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/26/2020 at 16:51

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Nothing too bad happens when the PCV(s) fail. It mainly affects idle and part throttle driving, once you get up to speed it’s okay, though you notice a bit of a power loss and the fuel economy tanks.

The final drive isn’t variable, it comes with only one ratio installed. But transverse mounted automatics are marvel of modern packaging, and there are a lot of space concerns and such that, in part, dictate gearing. So the fact is the 2 transmissions are different enough that the stronger 6T40 unit (presumably bigger as well) allows for more different final drive sizes.

I’ve drive a few modern DCTs and find them to be just fine. If I could get one in a car I liked I might just so Mrs. Snuze could drive it (though I’d rather she just learn to drive stick like she keeps telling me she will). The big advantage to DCTs is better gear spacing.  Autos tend to suffer in that you have wonky spacing between gears instead of a geometric or linear spacing in a manual.  GM was guilty of this with the old 700R4/4L60 series - there was a huge gap between 1st and 2nd, and then 2nd, 3rd, and 4th were very closely spaced.  But you’re right that modern torque converters are pretty good, and lock up converters negate a lot of the inefficiencies of older automatics.  

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Snuze: Needs another Swede 10/26/2020 at 17:32

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Clearly I don’t know much about transmissions but you seem to. CVTs, DCTs, PDKs, all of them can be very good but they just aren’t as proven in the long term as torque converters and the gains aren’t enough for many for it to be worth it.

Never thought about how packaging dictates gearing before. 

If you are thinking about selling your Cruze, better just schedule an afternoon in an empty parking lot and just go for it as y ou won’t have to deal with that specific clutch much longer anyways.

I will most likely have something like a Miata or a Mini or some other small fun car as my next but I can’t drive stick so I will have to rely on the impressions of someone else during a test drive :( Not sure of a way around it.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 10/26/2020 at 19:13

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Out of curiosity, can you not drive stick for some reason (i.e. physical reason ) or just haven’t learned yet? If it’s the latter, you’re welcome to come beat the heck out my Cruze!

My focus in my ME degree was powertrain engineering, mainly combustion engines, but I learned a bit about transmissions as well. PDK is the brand specific (Porsche) version of a DCT. The bigger divide, that is often less apparent to consumers, is wet vs dry DCT. CVTs are for snow mobiles, and nothing else, in my humble opinion. But DCTs are actually pretty well proven in racing usage, so they are tough, the trick is tuning them for the street. That’s been the issue, but there are a few good ones out there, VW’s DSGs have been in service for a while, Hyundai has a few DCTs, and the new C8 Corvette is DCT only. The only outlier I’m aware of, in terms of awful DCTs, is the Ford PowerShift in the Focus.

MiniGTI - now with XJ6 > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 10/27/2020 at 00:16

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Don’t know about these but on the TR6 the trick with the springs is to slip the pads off the pivot at the bottom and twist them off the piston. THEN the springs are slack and easily removed.

When reinstalling, hook springs into pads, then hook pads into place. Easy and no force or special tools required.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Snuze: Needs another Swede 10/27/2020 at 00:54

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I simply haven’t had a chance to learn. I once stalled a 5 speed Patriot a few times but that’s all. I simply am not close friends with anyone with a car I could mooch off of.

And 9ut of curiosity, where are you again? I doubt I’ll be up your way anytime soon but I’ve heard there’s quite a few Oppos near you.

I’ve heard that DCTs tend to not like slow stop and go traffic and are better dealing with more sharp throttle inputs. Makes sense for a racecar but less so for a commuter. Torque converter s are really good at that stop and go with their creep at i dle and smoothness with small throttle inputs. Do DCTs naturally have creep at idle or is that just engineered in?