I've been dreaming of drop top rwd stick shift P-cars with hydraulic steering and adaptive dampers

"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein) 10/12/2020 at 12:40 • Filed to: None

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My plan for future vehicles is taking shape! After several years of me driving a series of unreliable BMWs and Jeeps, and my wife driving a series of leased late-model normal practical cars to get active safety nannies for cheap, we’ve been craving more long term relationships with vehicles.

I !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! with the intention of keeping it for a very long time. It won’t stay stock, but I’m going to make damn sure that I don’t ruin the comfort and reliability. I’m going to try my best to do just enough as I tweak the Si, rather than giving it full barrel blasts from the parts cannon.

Next up, we’re planning to !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! when the lease on her CX-5 ends in August 2021. We’re kinda leaning towards new because 1) Kia’s warranty on new cars is 5 years bumper-to-bumper & 10 years on powertrain; 2) The Niro was facelifted in 2020 and got newer bigger infotainment and gauge cluster screens with HyunKia’s latest software; 3) Dealer discounts on new ones make them only a few grand more than a CPO + $1500 to make the CPO warranty match the new warranty.

After that, we ain’t buyin shit for cars for a while. We will eventually buy a house. It keeps getting pushed back because we’re not in a rush to make it happen. But it will. Once we settle in to the house, my wife is cool with me getting a fun toy car to go along with the Si and Niro, as finances permit, of course.

The fun reliable newer cheap ‘n cheerful choice for me is an ND2 Miata, which I love a lot, but my gaze is being drawn in another direction. Namely, Porsches.

For me, the 9_7 cars are the sweet spot. They have solid if not world-beating performance, revvy NA motors, they’re roomy & practical for sports cars, they avoid the crappiness of the 9_6 interiors, the not-amazing electric power steering of the 9_1 cars, and the silly too-tall center consoles that were introduced in the 9_1 cars and have persisted ever since. The infotainment screens are way outdated, but easily replaced with modern double-DIN headunits. Plus, even on models that aren’t overpriced collectibles, resale values are at least stable.

The 9_7.2 generation in particular is very desirable, because its newer direct injected motors make some more power than the 9_7.1 cars, and more importantly they finally resolved the IMS bearing and cylinder scoring issues present in the 9_6 and 9_7.1 cars. Those issues are a little overblown in general, and less prevalent in the 9_7.1 than the 9_6. But still, the 9_7.2 cars are just more trouble-free.

The main features I gotta have are a stick shift and the PASM adaptive dampers. I love adaptive shocks in general, but I especially would want a Porsche with PASM because the system is made by Bilstein and there’s a lot of aftermarket for it. Without having to do full coilovers, I could get one of several street-friendly lowering spring options, pair them with !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! that have shortened bodies to go with lowering springs, and tune the system with the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . There’s a button on the dash to switch between comfy and sporty modes, and the DSC box lets you dial in exactly how comfy and sporty you want each of those modes to be. Fabulous.

There are of course other options I have opinions about, but fundamentally I want a stick and PASM. The Sport Chrono package is also very appealing. I think the silly stopwatch on the dash is rather pointless, but you get the Sport button that kicks in a more aggressive engine/throttle map and also puts the PASM in its sport setting. But, if you want the aggressive engine map and comfy suspension, just press the PASM button after the Sport button to put the shocks back on soft. (Sport Plus as pictured above I think only comes on PDK 9_7.2 Sport Chrono cars.)

As for Boxster vs. 911, I love the mid-engine handling, lighter weight, and 2 trunks of the Boxster. But I also like the 911's more spacious interior with no bulkhead directly behind the front seats, and more attractive dashboard design. Looks are a wash, the 911 looks better with the top up and the Boxster looks better top down.

PASM is probably the biggest determining factor, because it’s standard on the C2S and exceedingly rare on the Boxster S. If I did go for the Boxster, I’d skip the first 2 years (2005-06) of the Boxster S as it has a 3.2 liter 280 hp motor. The 07-08 have a 3.4 liter 295 hp motor, and the 09-12 987.2 has a 3.4 liter DI motor making 310 hp. But finding PASM on any of these versions is tough.

The standard PASM on the C2S is one of several reasons why I wouldn’t bother with the base Carrera. The 997.1 C2S has a 3.8 liter 355 hp motor, and the 997.2 with DI makes 385 hp. The S also has wider fenders & wheels, with revised suspension geometry and bigger brakes. All for not too much more money than a regular Carrera on the used market.

Oh, and that 997.2 GTS at the top of this post? It was only available for 2011-12, had an uprated 408 hp version of the 3.8 liter DI motor (this is the X51 powerkit that’s technically also available on the C2S but exceedingly rare), wider fenders from the C4S/Turbo, GT3-style bumpers, Sport Chrono, sport seats, etc etc. But they come standard with bothersome center-lock wheels, most of them are PDKs, and prices are directly in line with their perceived desirability.

So, we’ll see what the hell happens with this, as it’s still a ways off in the future, and I could very well say screw dealing with an older Porsche and just get that ND2. But...this 9_7 idea is occupying a little too much of my headspace lately. 

rctothefuture > Textured Soy Protein 10/12/2020 at 13:05

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German’s do convertibles well. You’ll be in a cocoon of fresh air without too much wind blowing past your hair or ears. It’s quite nice compared to your average convertible. I would recommend driving the 911 then driving the Boxster. The 911 is a GT car and is quite fun, but the Boxster is like the German Miata. So much tighter and fun to drive, in my opinion anyway.

Textured Soy Protein > rctothefuture 10/12/2020 at 13:23

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I’ve driven both and while the 911 is more of GT than the Boxster, the 997 is a lot smaller than the cars that followed it, and not much bigger than the 987 . The 987 S is 172.1" long and weighs 2987 lbs. T he 997 S is 175.6" long and weighs 3131 lbs. Yeah the Boxster is more pure sports car but for me the PASM is the most important feature. Assuming I could actually find a Boxster with it, I’d probably go that route, but it’s so rare that the C2S having PASM standard is just a lot easier to find a car I’d like. 

Tripper > Textured Soy Protein 10/12/2020 at 13:43

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What are the popular mods on the Si, and which ones are you considering?

Textured Soy Protein > Tripper 10/12/2020 at 13:54

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Many many people jump right into ECU tunes but the car has a few weak points that need to be addressed before messing with the highest power of the off-the-shelf tunes. Those will put down about 235 whp with no additional bolt-ons , but stock clutch and intercooler are weak points. The IC is too small and heat soaks, the clutch just doesn’t hold much torque over stock . Oh and the stock rear motor mount is makes for wheel hop with this power level . Many people go too stiff with upgrading this but the CTR piece with some bushing inserts is just beefy enough without affecting NVH.

First up I’m doing little appearance and refinement tweaks (for example replacing the scratchy cloth armrest covers in the doors & consoles with the leatherette pieces from other trims) , then I’ll do a mild suspension upgrade (Whiteline springs lower the car only 20mm and have good rates to work with the stock adaptive shocks + Whiteline 22mm rear sway for more tail happiness), and a set of summer wheels & tires with the stockers & stock sporty all-seasons reserved for winter.

Eventually I’ll probably tune it but that’ll go with a new intercooler, rear motor mount & bypass valve, plus I would run a less aggressive map to preserve the stock clutch.

I have a much longer list but I’m trying to be reasonable! 

Jb boin > Textured Soy Protein 10/12/2020 at 14:11

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I don’t know that particular engine but you could ask for a flatter torque tune to avoid ruining the clutch if it’s very weak.

Y ou can still change the intercooler after the fact as if the tune is not trash it should automatically limit the power when the IAT is too high (and at w orse end up around the stock power level ), i am intercooler limited in my A3 and i can defini tely feel a difference of performance when it’s hot outside or not but it’s still sensibly better than stock.

And i also got a Powerflex rear engine mount on it , in my case i chose the diesel version which is the softest of the 3 models (there is also a “street” and a “ performance” model) and i really felt a big difference after changing it (and the engine was still stock), gear changes are more consistent and sensibly easier at high RPM plus this “soft” model didn ’ t create much more vibrations at idle on the gear lever but sensibly improved the on/off throttle feel .

Conclusion : Don’t wait to do  the engine mount, it’s cheap and easy to do .

Tekamul > Textured Soy Protein 10/12/2020 at 14:13

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I’ve been casually shopping for a 997.2 Carrera 4s manual since Spring. One massive issue I’ve found is there are generally 3 colors available : black, grey, white. If another color pops up, it’s gone in less than a week. So many people with boring colors.

Tripper > Textured Soy Protein 10/12/2020 at 14:24

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I think clutch and cooling are where you potentially pay for just about any ECU tune. My Alltrack is tuned and the VW dealer that did it said this when I asked how long to expect with the clutch. “ 99% of the time when we replace a clutch early it’s a kid under 21 and the car isn’t tuned.” (prob because they all go to an inde or DIY to save some coin, haha)

“ First up I’m doing little appearance and refinement tweaks (for example replacing the scratchy cloth armrest covers in the doors & consoles with the leatherette pieces from other trims)“

I love little things like this. I s wapped out the brushed aluminum mirror caps for body colored ones, ditched the crappy shift knob.

You bought brand new correct? Is there a break in procedure/period?

Textured Soy Protein > Tripper 10/12/2020 at 14:44

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Yeah it’s brand new and while there may be a break-in procedure, it’s not being broken in because I can’t drive for a few/several more weeks of achilles tendon healing.

The clutch on these 1.5T Si’s is a genuine weak point. I’m sure some/many of the people burning them up prematurely with tunes are shit drivers but it’s the same clutch as the non-Si version of the motor. The Si is already making more torque than the regular 1.5T Civics and the tuned ones make a lot more than that. Of course, this being the Honda scene there are also many people who go crazy with too-aggressive pucked disc clutch upgrades, or trying to adapt the Type-R clutch at great hassle/expense , when a moderate full-face performance clutch with a bit stronger pressure plate is all that’s really needed until you go for a bigger turbo and/or E85.

Even on the stock tune the IC can heat soak after repeated boosting. Same deal there, the part isn’t upgraded for the Si, even though the Si does have an upgraded turbo and the fueling & engine internals to match it.

Textured Soy Protein > Jb boin 10/12/2020 at 14:46

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I may do the RMM before the tune. This is an area where the upgrades are a little too aggressive and give too much NVH which I’m very much wanting to avoid in this car . The Type-R RMM is less aggressive than the aftermarket stuff, and it can be stiffened just enough with some bushing inserts. Depending on how I feel about wheel hop and shifting clunkiness it could very well happen before a tune. 

Tripper > Textured Soy Protein 10/12/2020 at 14:57

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Not that I’m hoping to have to do a clutch but the revs hang so long I’d welcome a light flywheel for the VW . Have to be careful with clutch upgrades like you said, a lot of them are noisy too.

Jb boin > Textured Soy Protein 10/12/2020 at 15:04

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If there is a OEM harder part and your car would still have less power and torque than the T ype-R , i would go for it as it will improve but stay balanced enough not to make it sensibly worse in any fashion.

Obviously, it might also not be required at all :)

Another mild mod that i did in the same spirit of making it OEM+ is swapping the gearbox shift linkage for the TT model that has a slightly shorter throw front to rear ( like 15%) so it’s more notchy and “precise” without being extreme and as the left/right thrown stays the same, it’s not trickier to find the right gear than before.

Textured Soy Protein > Tripper 10/12/2020 at 15:19

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Not sure about your car but o n the Si the rev hang is somewhat diminished by tunes and most let you selectively turn it off entirely (although sometimes this doesn’t work exactly as intended).

KTuner is pretty solid and some companies like Phearable & Two Step Performance (another TSP!) resell it with their own additional maps pre-loaded. Otherwise if you only buy the KTuner you have to pay these guys extra to download their maps later .

I would probably go with the Phearable tune but keep it on one of the lower boost maps rather than the top one. That will supposedly do 285 lb/ft at the wheels, meanwhile the stock clutch is also what comes in the regular 1.5T Civics that are rated at lb/ft crank.

Eventually after upgrading the clutch & intercooler I’d crank the boost up to the higher maps but my intent with the Si is to be fun without becoming a basket case so I want to be smart about how I mess with it.

Textured Soy Protein > Jb boin 10/12/2020 at 15:22

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People with stock Type-Rs complain about needing a stiffened motor mount too, but of course their cars are more powerful. That’s why I’m thinking of the Type-R part plus the little bushing inserts. Doing this is still much less aggressive than any of the aftermarket mounts intended for the Si.

As for the shifter, like Joe Biden, I have a plan! The throw is plenty short but this bushing & spring kit makes it more solid feeling. 

https://acuityinstruments.com/apps/bundles/bundle/14488

Textured Soy Protein > Tekamul 10/12/2020 at 15:27

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Totally agree! Far too many high end German cars are only made in boring colors. BMW is at least being somewhat interesting lately but I’ve long since had my fill of BMWs.

Any particular reason you want the C4S over the C2S? 

Tripper > Textured Soy Protein 10/12/2020 at 15:29

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It’s better after the tune, but I want them to fall off a cliff when the clutch disengages like they do in the M3/02. More like the M3, 02 has an aftermarket flywheel and they really drop.

Tekamul > Textured Soy Protein 10/12/2020 at 15:30

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Yeah, Vermont .

As doomed as I may be, I plan on DDing it, which includes the occasional hairy Winter driving. I don’t have an issue DDing my FR-S in the Winter, but I’m a little less worried about cracking up a $25k FR coupe than I am a (MSRP) 6-figure RR GT.

Textured Soy Protein > Tripper 10/12/2020 at 15:37

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Flywheel should help but it’s my understanding that rev hang is more of a software thing than anything else. In modern cars the ECUs are programmed to gradually close the throttle when you let off the pedal, for better emissions. I don’t know how exactly this makes the emissions better, but this is supposedly the reason. On an automatic transmission it doesn’t matter, but on a stick where you’re on and off the gas much more frequently it can be annoying.

Just stick with a lightweight steel flywheel if you go that route. I dunno about VWs but many of the flywheels for Hondas are aluminum with a consumable, replaceable friction surface. Especially on a street car, I don’t want my flywheel to be a wear item.

On the Si, the stock flywheel is dual mass and you need to use an unsprung clutch disc with it. Many aftermarket clutches offer sprung discs but those only work with aftermarket single-mass flywheels. If I eventually do upgrade the clutch I’d probably go for a not particularly aggressive one, just enough to hold the tuned torque, and one of the lightened steel options (SPEC or Exedy in this case). 

Textured Soy Protein > Tekamul 10/12/2020 at 15:38

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Makes sense, obviously for me as a toy car I have no need for the awd. But here in DC, I wouldn’t be opposed to DD’ing a rwd car with some snows or maybe even sporty all-seasons for winter. 

Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle > Textured Soy Protein 10/12/2020 at 21:28

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I love the idea of a 997.2 but the premium they command over the 997.1 is a bit much. Last I looked it seemed like a $12k or more jump for comparable mileage coupes from 07-08 to 09-10. I haven’t spent enough time in the two different years to get it but on paper it seems like a lot. I know the .2 has a much better engine beyond IMS but still...

Either way, I hope you get the right one in your garage sooner rather than later...

Textured Soy Protein > Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle 10/12/2020 at 21:52

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I really think the reliability is what drives the increased values on the 9_7.2 cars. The issues with the M96 & M97 motors are so frequently talked about that they’re perceived as lemons waiting to happen. If the .2 were just a power bump and some more modern looking lights and fascias, there wouldn’t be the huge price difference. Even if the issues with the M97 aren’t *that* prevalent, the perception is, and it informs people’s decision making. And of course the turbo and GT models from these generations are immune from these particular issues but they cost way more for more reasons than just that.

For me, reliability aside, if I decide to go for a C2S, another thing I’ll have to think about is the cost of modding the engine in the .1 to make roughly similar power to the .2. In the Boxster it was only a 19 hp bump with the DI vs. 30 hp in the C2S. With these being NA motors that only make so much extra power with bolt-ons and a tune, and those mods being subject to the Porsche tax, maybe the .2 becomes a better value because even though it costs more up front, it already has the extra power, and given the market conditions it’s more likely to hold its value.

Saracen > Textured Soy Protein 10/12/2020 at 23:34

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Good plan.

Speaking as a former 997 owner, I was looking for a good 997.2, but I ended up going with a high-spec 997.1 C4S with the Powerkit and Ceramic brakes for less than what a stripped out 997.2 C2 was going for. I was worried more about bore scoring than the IMS bearing, as that only affects something like %0.1 of 2006-2008 cars. Bore scoring is a much bigger worry (though to address one of your points, it mostly affects the 3.8 liter engines due to having thinner cylinder walls), but gentle driving while warming the engine up, plus regular oil changes, plus having the third radiator of the X51 package helped mitigate my worry. I felt like I got a lot more car with the 997.1. A loaded 997.2 C4S or GTS with the same options would have run $20k more at the time. (My car had an MSRP of about $132k...more than a 997 Turbo). You may have better luck with prices, as the Cabriolets are generally considered undesirable.

I’ll also say that 9A1 engines do have issues pop up. Bore scoring and other issues with those engines are keeping Jake Raby in business. They’re still figuring out issues with that engine, especially since they are direct injected.  

At least with the M97 you have a known quantity, and there is a guaranteed path towards building it into a powerful, bulletproof 4-4.2 liter flat-six.

I’ll have another 997 some day, but it’ll be a stripped out 997.1 Carrera, and I’ll send off the engine to get bulletproofed and punched out to 4 liters, IMS Solution, etc..

Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle > Textured Soy Protein 10/13/2020 at 11:10

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Yeah, I agree it’s both actual and perceived reliability. But I have a decent risk tolerance so a later 997.1 wouldn’t stress me that much.

I do think that you probably want to buy for the level of HP you want and not try to mod up to it. Most P cars can be modified to get faster but it’s not a great return on the money.

But I’m one of those people that thinks 300hp is just about the perfect amount so a 997.1 Carrera to 997.2 Carrera S is hard for me to appreciate. The GTS you posted though, makes me drool.

Textured Soy Protein > Saracen 10/13/2020 at 12:23

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Y’know, I hadn’t thought of the potential engine problems as an opportunity to build the motor, but I suppose that’s a good thing to consider.

From my non-expert research , it seems like the problems are less prevalent in the M97 to the point where the specialists seem to not recommend proactively doing the IMS bearing on the M97 (especially 06-08 cars) as it’s more difficult to service. But if the engine’s out anyway they recommend upgrading it.

I can definitely see going for a .1 car vs .2 to avoid the price premium. Especially to get certain options like the sport seats, full leather interior, and on the 987, PASM . I slightly prefer the looks of the 997.2 over the .1, but I think the .1 is still good looking, and really the only thing about its design are the little crossbars in the side air intakes of the front fascia. Black those out and it immediately looks more modern.  

I’d maybe also have that flat body color part at the top of the middle opening wrapped black , I dunno. Just little looks cleanup and bam. Good to go.

I think the 987.2 redesign is less successful. The taillights are ok but the headlights and fascia are kinda misshapen relative to the .1. And the power bump is only 19 hp vs 30 hp on the C2S.

So of course now I’m going down the rabbit hole of Flat 6 Innovations built engines.

Textured Soy Protein > Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle 10/13/2020 at 13:11

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My understanding is the bolt-on mods don’t make tons of power, but potentially decent gains. For example, EVOMS claims a bump of 76 hp & 52 lb/ft on a 3.4 liter Boxster S 987.1 from a combo of intake, plenum, throttle, headers, exhaust, underdrive pulley and a tune.

I probably have similar risk tolerance as you where I wouldn’t worry too much about supposedly rolling the dice on an M97-engined car vs. a later 9A1 engine. Just to be really certain I’d get a thorough PPI including checking the cylinders with a borescope.

If sometime down the line I had engine problems and wanted to keep the car a very long time, I could maybe even see myself going for a built motor. Punching that 987 S out to 3.8 liters with some head work, and the bolt-ons, would be properly mental. Not necessary, but hey the chassis can handle it so what’s the harm in dreaming?

Saracen > Textured Soy Protein 10/13/2020 at 13:17

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Correct, ‘06-’08 have a larger bearing with a very low failure rate...it can be updated but this requires splitting the case to do the work, so typically you don’t bother unless you need to do that anyway. ‘05.5 engines have a smaller bearing that can be easily updated, which I would do if I purchased an ‘05 997, as that is the bearing with a nontrivial failure rate.

You don’t have to necessarily go with Flat-6, the core components of the rebuild are the IMS Solution while you’re in there, Nikasil cylinder sleeves which requires machining the block to install, and new pistons (this is where the displacement bump comes in, if you need new pistons you might as well!). LN Engineering developed this tech in partnership with Flat-6 Innovations, but you can have LN do the work, or another shop. Flat-6 is considered the best, but you won’t have the car for a year.

My 997.1 had tons of rare options including the interior and exterior colors, as well as full leather, the X51 powerkit (381bhp and PSE) , ceramics, the best 997 wheels (Carrera Sports), and also had a Techart Type 1 steering wheel and TechArt varioplus coilovers. for $40k I couldn’t pass it up.  There are times I wished I didn’t sell it, but for what I want to do with a 997 in the future I think I’m better off getting a much cheaper, lower content 997.1 C2 with the 3.6 and building from there.  The C4S i had was a beautiful unicorn and I didn’t want to cut it up.

Textured Soy Protein > Saracen 10/13/2020 at 13:56

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My dark horse quasi-unicorn but actually available on the open market option, that I didn’t want to make this post about just in case the SEO algorithms picked it up and blew up the values (yes I know this is a very small possibility but juuuuust in case) is an ’08 Boxster RS60. They come standard with the PSE & remapped ECU that bumps power to 303 hp vs 291 in the 987.1 S 3.4, sport seats, PASM, and full leather. Heated seats, nav and Sport Chrono are options.

To your point, I’m unsure if modifying a limited edition like that is advisable. But so far the only PASM-equipped 987s I’ve seen have been RS60s. I feel like the RS60 isn’t considered so special or valuable that if I did it in an OEM+ type style, even with a fair amount of work in it, that wouldn’t necessarily be too stupid.