Looks like hopes for a turbo on the new Toyobaru have been dashed

"Textured Soy Protein" (texturedsoyprotein)
10/06/2020 at 10:29 • Filed to: None

The consensus on the new Subaru BRZ (and Toyota 86) is growing: it’s going to use an updated version of the current platform with a bigger, 2.4 liter NA boxer engine. Similar to how the 2.0 liter in the first generation car was a more highly tuned version of the NA 2.0 liter motors in other Subarus, the new motor is an NA version of the new 2.4 turbo available in the Ascent, Outback & Legacy, presumably with some revvier gubbins on the inside.

Someone who attended a Subaru event showing off the prototype spilled the beans and/or was the officially-designated-by-Subaru leaker for the event.

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Here’s the text from that IG post because it’s not showing when embedded.

2022 BRZ - Premiering this Fall.

Production starts Spring 2021.

Specs:

• 2.4L Subaru Boxer Flat-4 engine
• FA24D w/ D-4S (dual injection - direct & port)
• Naturally Aspirated
• 217 HP/220 PS & 177 LB-FT (vs current gen 205 HP & 156 LB-FT)
• Displacement: 2387cc (~2.4L)
• Bore/Stroke: 94mm x 86mm

Who believes we’ll actually see a turbocharged version that would compete directly with the Toyota Supra 2.0's 255 HP turbocharged 4-cylinder? It seems unlikely.. but we can dream!

Here’s Bozi Tatarevic with a !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! of some spy photos. More articles from The Drive ( !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ), !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! & !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

DISCUSSION (40)

The Ghost of Oppo > Textured Soy Protein
10/06/2020 at 10:37

It makes sense that neither brand wants this to cannibalize from their more expensive turboed models, but still a shame.

dogisbadob > Textured Soy Protein
10/06/2020 at 10:38

Yay the new Toyota 94! :p

412GTI > Textured Soy Protein
10/06/2020 at 10:38

A little more torque gives me hope but I probably still wouldn’t consider buying one without a turbo motor. Yeah, yeah pure driving experience and whatever they say about the last gen but clearly more people want more power.

arl > Textured Soy Protein
10/06/2020 at 10:40

S urprised they didn’t g o turbo. But it does look like there’s a nice power bump. It also might help keep prices lower without a turbo.

My bird IS the word > Textured Soy Protein
10/06/2020 at 10:45

Coming to a teenagers driveway near you in 2035

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > Textured Soy Protein
10/06/2020 at 10:47

I wrote a long comment, but then my cat ran across my keyboard and refreshed the page.

In short: I don’t think the Supra’s turbo four will fit in there, and it doesn’t fit with the theme of the car (revvy NA driver’s car for the person who doesn’t want a Miata). Based on power/weight ratios, to be comparable to a Miata in terms of acceleration, the new Toyobaru will need to keep the weight down and have at least 238hp. I think that’s doable out of a 2.4L NA boxer.

kleeBRZ > dogisbadob
10/06/2020 at 10:50

More like the Toyota Sqrt(94x86)

hike > Textured Soy Protein
10/06/2020 at 10:51

I'm hoping lack of turbo keeps prices in check. I've seen people saying "omg it needs to have 300hp and cost less than 30k!" But the current model already costs about 29k.

CobraJoe > 412GTI
10/06/2020 at 10:52

And they’re getting more power. If they tuned out the “torque dip” on the new engine, then it should feel massively more powerful than the last gen.

I’m all for keeping it NA. I really don’t think a turbo engine pairs well with a lightweight, RWD, manual sports car.

Ermahgerd! > Textured Soy Protein
10/06/2020 at 10:55

The car really needs 250hp but at least getting there from 217 (via the aftermarket) is more realistic than from 205. What I want to really see is when that power comes on. It was one thing to be underpowered, but you having to wind the hell out of the motor to make any use of it made it worse. My old e30 barely had 200 hp (and it weighed more) but it really started coming on in the middle of the power band, making it a lot more fun to drive.

HammerheadFistpunch > Textured Soy Protein
10/06/2020 at 10:56

makes sense. They don’t want to compete with themselves any more than they already are, plus this new model has to be a rework of the old one...it just wouldn’t make sense for them to dump lots of money into a new platform. So basically its a new engine, some chassis tweaks and a new body. Thats fine. Hopefully the new engine has the grunt in the low end the last one lacked while still revving.

Textured Soy Protein > 412GTI
10/06/2020 at 10:57

It’s interesting, there’s a slightly growing chorus of wanting NA motors, for example the new 4.0 liter Porsche 917s (even though those all have weird extra-tall gearing even in the GT4/Spyder) , used values on 997.2/987.2 , etc. But the Toyobaru gets the most flack of anything for not being turbo.

The ND2 Miata with its 181 hp + weight as low as 2341 lbs isn’t quite properly fast but I’ve driven one, and it’s just enough to feel not-slow. Its power-to-weight ratio of 12.9 lb/hp is a bit better than the 13.7 (205 hp for 2798 lbs) of the current Toyobaru.

But apparently in the pursuit of weight savings on the ND, Mazda limited the tunability. People with forced induction ND1s are grenading the transmissions because they’re not nearly as beefy as the NC transmission. The Fiat 124 uses the NC transmission to cope with its turbo torque, and BBR & Flyin Miata are selling a kit to adapt an NC transmission to an ND .

Personally I think there’s still a place for NA motors in certain cars, and cars like the Miata and possibly the Toyobaru are appropriate. I’m not super familiar with the NA tuning possibilities of the 1st gen Toyobaru motor, but there’s some interesting NA tuning happening on both the ND1, and there’s starting to be stuff for the ND2. I f you look at the numbers people are making in built versions of the 8th & 9th gen Civic Si with the K20 & K24 respectively, those motors can become truly beastly when built up properly.

Even though I have a 10th gen Si with a turbo, I have great respect for those 8th & 9th gens. For a sporty DD the adaptive shocks & less-revvy nature of my car make it more livable, which makes sense, but those built NA 8th/9th gens are sweet, and I would argue that in sports cars like the Miata & Toyobaru, low-down torque to avoid revving the piss out of them is less important.

Textured Soy Protein > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker
10/06/2020 at 11:05

The low cowl/hoodline on these is specifically because of the boxer, no way that BMW I4 is going to fit in there.

It’s funny, the only cars for which NA tuning has been a thing any time recently is basically Hondas, American V8s, and to some extent, Miatas. Built K-series Hondas can put down 300 whp. The 2.5 MZR swap in the NC Miata is semi-common but lots of NCs, even 2.5 swaps, get FI kits because the transmission is suitably beefy.

The ND transmission is much daintier than the NC to keep the weight down so maybe the Miata tuners will take a look at what’s happening in the Honda scene to get some inspiration. Perhaps the same could happen for the Toyobaru but so much of Subaru tuning for so long has been turbo-based.

Textured Soy Protein > HammerheadFistpunch
10/06/2020 at 11:14

Bring on the NA tuning! (Or more likely, superchargers.)

HammerheadFistpunch > Textured Soy Protein
10/06/2020 at 11:15

Im perfectly happy with this being NA. The only trouble is that at my elevation the new power is going to feel like the old power people were complaining about at sea level.

dropthatclutch > Textured Soy Protein
10/06/2020 at 11:17

I truly was eying these when they were released. I was 28 and finally had some grown up money, and intended to buy a second car. Up to that point I had an Eclipse a WRX, and was looking to supplement my Mazdaspeed 6. I was the target market. The problem wasn’t that it didn’t have enough power, but that it had less power than most every car I had owned. It didn’t feel like any sort of upgrade.

I ended up in a used Saturn Sky Redline for a bit less.

Now at 36 I feel that I have aged out of this car. Even if they do put a turbo in it making 250-300hp I’m not going to be shopping a 4cyl tuner car that is roughly equal to what I owned 5-8 years ago.

They missed their shot at the FnF generation with the first one in 2012 . Maybe they can reach a younger generation with the new one though.

412GTI > CobraJoe
10/06/2020 at 11:19

Yeah the bad torque dip was what really turned me off the Twins when shopping. I’d probably would have enjoyed them more if they had a Honda motor like in my 08 Si. At least it was fun to ring out.

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > HammerheadFistpunch
10/06/2020 at 11:20

Exactly.

AND, their whole ethos with the Toyoburu twins was light weight classic sports car feel. Turbos, regardless of their capability to make power, don’t fit that ethos.

What shocks me, it that after everything the original has done, that people ever expected a turbo at all. Neither Subaru, not Toyota have done a single goddamn thing to ever even hint at the possibility of having one, yet it’s all anyone ever talked about with the refresh. Bizarre.......

Textured Soy Protein > HammerheadFistpunch
10/06/2020 at 11:20

Altitude always makes turbos more appealing. Superchargers can run smaller pulleys at altitude to make their same boost targets as at sea level, but unlike turbos can’t just adapt on the fly to hit a given boost target for whatever the atmospheric pressure is.

kanadanmajava1 > Textured Soy Protein
10/06/2020 at 11:21

I like the ca mou flage. I hope they’ll sell it with that color option .

Textured Soy Protein > dropthatclutch
10/06/2020 at 11:22

I’m 38 and just bought a 4 cylinder turbo tuner car Civic Si. With the exception of a ’92 Integra GSR and ’99 Miata, it’s the least powerful car I’ve owned. But...with a bit more sound deadening than the old ones, that turbo torque, and adaptive shocks, it’s catering to my nearly middle-aged brittle bones.

gettingoldercarguy > Textured Soy Protein
10/06/2020 at 11:22

5.9% increase in horsepower and a 13.5% increase in torque shows that they were fixing the previous car's deficit. This is a good thing.

412GTI > Textured Soy Protein
10/06/2020 at 11:24

I guess we are in a bit of a weird spot nowadays with most car becoming turbocharged. As a previous 2008 Civic Si owner, I do appreciate N/A motors but the previous BRZ just didn’t do it for me when upgrading.

You’re probably right it less important to have a more dailyable, torquey motor in something like the BRZ. It just needs to be delivered in a better manner than the previous 2.0 Boxer.

dropthatclutch > Textured Soy Protein
10/06/2020 at 11:28

Great choice, but is it your DD or a second toy car?

Textured Soy Protein > dropthatclutch
10/06/2020 at 11:34

Definitely a DD.

Oh, and I also had an MS6. Fun but definitely lacking in the ability to not spontaneously rust, and far too many interior rattles.

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > Textured Soy Protein
10/06/2020 at 11:37

I really like NA tuning. There’s a lot less room for error- bumping compression, determining crossover, balancing internals, etc, etc, etc, all that and you can get a really good motor, something that revs to the moon and sounds amazing, but if your calculations are a little bit off, boom, catastrophic failure. Where as FI tuning mostly comes down to minimal crossover, a good wideband and MAP sensor, and you’re pretty much golden until you bend a rod.

dropthatclutch > Textured Soy Protein
10/06/2020 at 11:42

So if you were to buy a toy car would the proposed 2.4l BRZ be an option or would you want something with more punch?

Haha I hated my MS6. That lull in the torque curve was a slog. Seemed like a lot of rowing to keep a turbo engine pushing.

Textured Soy Protein > 412GTI
10/06/2020 at 11:59

From my brief research it looks like both the FA20 in the twins and the ND2 can put down around 190 whp with bolt-ons and a tune . It’s just...the ND2 weighs 350-450 lbs less depending on which top and option level you go for.

Saracen > Textured Soy Protein
10/06/2020 at 12:09

I mean, I feel a 2.4 liter with more midrange (and without that weird torque dip in the old car) would be plenty for the car’s purpose...but clearly there is huge demand there for a turbocharged model. Perhaps it’ll be coming later down the line.

WRXforScience > Textured Soy Protein
10/06/2020 at 12:15

This is exactly what all the forums zeroed in on as the specs. I have a 2014 BRZ and I will buy the new one in a year or two as a replacement. My 2014 has an intake, header, and tune and is just shy of the numbers for the new car (I’m making +10hp and +15lb-ft over stock) without a torque dip. My car doesn’t feel slow in traffic and spinning even the big tires I run at the track is possible with an aggressive launch.

The BRZ is beautiful on track. I do 30+ trackdays a year with mine (I’m an instructor with multiple track groups) and there are few cars that are as fun to drive on track as the BRZ. Not to mention, I can fold down the backseats and fit a full set of tires, tools, and everything I need for a trackday in the back without needing a tire trailer or a tow vehicle.

Turbo cars overheat on the track, they make better commuter cars but at this point if your next commuter car isn’t electric you’re a generation behind in tech.

200 whp with standard bolt-ons should be very easy to achieve. My 2014 BRZ is under 2650lbs by just taking out the spare tire, tools, and throwing in a lightweight battery, which should all work on the new car . The new BRZ should have very close to the ND in power to weight if not slightly better (the ND doesn’t have anything to take out aside from going to a lightweight battery, so its track weight and curb weight are pretty close and you don’t get that first easy 60-100lbs by taking out the trunk junk).

The only thing I really hope they fixed is the bumper cover, the old car’s front bumper cover has a tendency to sag since they’re held in with plastic clips.

Textured Soy Protein > dropthatclutch
10/06/2020 at 12:29

Well if I were to get a toy car I’m heavily in favor of convertibles. Right now I’ve got lots good to say about the ND2 Miata and 987.2 Boxster S. But I can respect the Toyobaru. If I were doing one up I’d probably choose a roots-style blower for linear power delivery. Even modern turbo cars like my previous car (FBO + tune N55 335xi = ~375ish whp) still have lag and that slingshot effect isn’t the most precise feeling in the world.

Yeah my Si is also a turbo but with the short gearing, light (for its size/shape) weight and small turbo it’s not that same kind of slingshot feeling. Even when tuned. I want to keep the stock downpipe on the Si because it’s the only cat on the car, the cats in the available catted downpipes are much smaller than stock, and I want to keep the emissions clean. I gotta stick to my enviro cred. A couple vendors sell upgraded Mitsubishi TD03 turbos that drop in place of the stock TD025 and give a lot more top end but near identical spool-up character. I could run the stock DP. But the clutch is a weak point on the Si, even on the stock turbo many people are burning up the stock clutch with just a tune.

Textured Soy Protein > Saracen
10/06/2020 at 13:35

Methinks the Toyota half of this partnership doesn’t want the overlap with the 2.0 Supra, and Subaru wants to leave the turbos to the WRX/STI.

Textured Soy Protein > WRXforScience
10/06/2020 at 13:44

I think the Toyobaru is a good nice simple track car for people who want to beat on their cars regularly at the track. Like you’re doing. Here’s my friend’s FRS. He’s fast.

Personally I’m not a track rat and a convertible is a much more fun toy to me than a coupe. I just fuck around with fun cars for the fuck of it. I’m not big on having numbers dick-measuring contests with other people’s cars, but I’d rather have an ND2 as it’s putting down similar power (to the 2.0 boxer at least) with similar mods but the top drops and it weighs a lot less.

WRXforScience > Textured Soy Protein
10/06/2020 at 14:11

That’s what I tell people, if you want a convertible go with the ND but if you don’t the 86 is the better choice (also you have to make sure the groups you want to track with allow convertibles, the BMW club cannot allow convertibles and some other clubs have requirements for things like arm restraints or full cages).

Exage03040 @ opposite-lock.com > hike
10/06/2020 at 14:16

I was on the forums a decade ago around the time of release and it was obvious how many were kids. Back then they wanted 250bhp for $23k. The bitching of lack of low-end on release. Anytime you told them to just tune it, they got pissy and exclaimed “it should just come that way”, it was obvious they had no money and it was going to be a lease.

T hen the whole STI and turbo rumors that to this day I’m sure still pop-up, despite it being documented that Subaru outright said they won’t do it from the factory with that engine bay space.

Stef Schrader > Textured Soy Protein
10/06/2020 at 17:42

hawt taaayke: T he original Toyobaru had enough power.

Stef Schrader > WRXforScience
10/06/2020 at 17:44

Aaaay, this is why the 86 was the one press tester I REALLY didn’t want to give back. Y’all know what I’m going to do with it. It’s going on a race track.

WRXforScience > Stef Schrader
10/06/2020 at 17:50

It’s about as close as you can get to a modern 944. I tried to get the inside info on it from Brad at ECR, but he was under an NDA and couldn’t tell me anything about it even though they had it at the track and they let him drive it!!

Stef Schrader > WRXforScience
10/06/2020 at 18:07

Oh man. But yeah, it’s definitely the modern-day 944 that Porsche won’t build us!

Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen > WRXforScience
10/06/2020 at 18:17

I’d’ve been fine if they’d just left the engine alone, apa rt from maybe a better sounding stock exhaust so revving it out just for the heck of it is fun witho ut having to mod it . It’s fine for what it is: another 20hp and a few torques will improve it a bit but not enough to c hange the “More Powah!” crowd into converts or really upgrade the driving experience . No doubt they’ll make some effort to engineer out the torque dip, since it’s had such bad press even though it doesn’t matter in real-world driving , but that wo n’t be enough to actually sell more cars either.

Having said that, I also recognise that they need to match the ND’s performance to give it a few more years’ life. B eing slow isn’t a big deal in the JDM (which is the market this car’s actually targeted at - they just let the rest of us buy it), but being comfortably the slowest kid on the block makes it harder to convinc e Japanese 20-somethings that this is the best platform on which to build out their Initial D fantasies.

What’d upsell me would be fixes for a few of the basic creature comforts defects, to make it a more useful dual-purpose car. Plus I’d love to see hydraulic PAS : the steering feel is good as EPAS goes, but it’s the one area which I think lets the old-school tactile driving experience down. But I know that ain’t happening :-(.

Give me

A daptive dampers so the ride could be softened off for longhaul work

An actually accessible cupholder

Seatbacks that go back to where they were after you flip them forward (my biggest pet bugbear)

... and I may upgrade. O therwise my 2013 will probably be with me till I blow it up or bounce it off a wall, and even then I might replace it with a late gen1 car to get the benefits of the incremental handling updates it’s had over the years rather than upgrading to a gen2 . I’m assumi ng the gen2 won’t be more tossable, and may well be less so: i t’s bound to be heavier.