*UPDATED* Oppopinion - Joy....starter issues.

"RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars" (rallydarkstrike) 02/19/2019 at 16:45 • Filed to: Battery, Starter, starting

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UPDATE: Well, picked up my car from the garage this afternoon. I was right, the alternator was fine. The battery, though was actually also fine, it was the starter itself that was the culprit. Total cost? $429 CAD.....yay. That seems a bit high to me considering the starter only is held in by 2 bolts. It’s down at the back of the engine, but the only things you have to remove to get to it are the airbox assembly (and ECU mount, technically which is part of the airbox assembly) and the end points of the shift linkage for my car’s 5-speed manual....i.e. (according to my copy of the Service Manual):

To remove the air cleaner assembly:

I’m no mechanic, and I didn’t try it myself so I guess I really shouldn’t comment (no time to try with 4 jobs), but I don’t know...$429 CAD just seems a bit high to me. The starter was $149 of that. A lot more money then I figured it was going to cost (I was thinking high $200s, like $290) At any rate, at least I have my car back!

The new starter sounds a lot different than the old one, which will take awhile to get used to!

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Original post:

So, my car HAS been starting lately, but rather than a reliable sounding “RRR RRR RRR RRR START”, it’s been more like “RRR.........RRR RRR RRR RRR START” for a month and a half or so now (if that makes sense).

I have the Torque app on my phone and an OBDII bluetooth dongle, so plugged that in to see what the charging voltage says and it shows as 14.2+ volts while normal driving and 13.7-14 volts while driving under load (with everything turned on....fog lights, rear defrost, heater fan on full, etc, etc). SO, I think the alternator is fine.

Sounds like a battery issue. I don’t have my multimeter because my old one died in the great basement flood of last October and my new-from-Christmas multimeter is packed away in one of a zillion unknown boxes from the basement being emptied out for repair work to start (which started 2 days ago by the way!)

Now, since yesterday...the key does nothing to start the car at all. All I hear is either a click or nothing when I turn it to ‘Start’. I went out and said screw it, the battery is the most likely and cheapest culprit, so bump-started my car and went to town for some work I had to do and, while there bought a new battery and put that in......car is still doing the same thing. No start, even with new battery, and either clicks or does nothing on key turn to ‘Start’. Does this definitely sound like a dead starter to you folks?

Also, I had to bumpstart (as gently as I could) my car like 7-8 times today while I was out and about so I could get everything done I had to do and get home....have I been doing any big damage to it?

Tristan > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 02/16/2019 at 18:18

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Bump starting won’t hurt anything. If you had a multimeter handy diagnosis would be a lot easier, but it’s most likely a dead starter . Cheapest option is to keep parking on a hill!

vicali > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 02/16/2019 at 18:20

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Hmm, sounds like a starter gone alright. Get a hammer or rock and bang on the starter. Try it again.

Brushes on the starter solenoid   get stuck on a dead spot and won’t go. Banging it moves the brushes and it works again for a bit. I’ve done it for a month or so when I was a starving student..

Alfalfa > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 02/16/2019 at 18:24

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Yeah that's probably a starter problem. I had the exact story when the starter died in a Ford I had. It just turned shower and slower over the course of a week until I got nothing.

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > Tristan 02/16/2019 at 18:29

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True, but I’m scared of constantly bumpstarting it more - somebody told me it can do damage to the engine from sudden shock of letting the letting the clutch out (mind you I try to go gently, but there would always be a little shock to the engine, right?)

I really wish I knew where my multimeter was, but not that there is a new battery in there, it’s obviously got to be something starter related...Borsuq suggested it could be an ignition switch as well, but that doesn’t seem quite like it would fit in my case.

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > vicali 02/16/2019 at 18:30

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Good idea...the starter is on the back of my engine beneath everything though....tried to reach it with a hammer handle this afternoon, but I can’t really get to it unless I get the car up on ramps or some such.

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > Alfalfa 02/16/2019 at 18:31

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It’s odd as, in my case, it wasn’t really turning slower and slower...when it was doing the initial “RRR......RRR RRR RRR START” symptom, the final “RRR RRR RRR START” was always a ‘normal’ speed, but the pause would be longer and longer, if that makes sense.

Tristan > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 02/16/2019 at 18:39

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More of a shock than cranking it over with a starter motor briefly before the hundreds of explosions per revolution kick in? Doubtful. Both are just a method of getting the engine spinning. I wouldn’t fret .

I’d want to verify that your starter is seeing juice when the key is turned to start to rule out a bad ignition switch , but since you were having symptoms of a hard crank and you’ve ruled out the battery, it’s probably a bad starter.

Jayvincent > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 02/16/2019 at 18:45

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Not sure where you are, but here most autoparts stores will test your battery, alternator and starter for free... and then install the new battery because 90% of the time that’s what it is, especially in the winter

Urambo Tauro > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 02/16/2019 at 18:45

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Could be the starter motor, or solenoid... could even be just a bad cable connection. No multimeter to confirm... how about a test lamp?

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > Tristan 02/16/2019 at 18:56

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Thanks for your input! We’ll find out next week I guess!

gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 02/16/2019 at 19:30

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Could be a starter. I’d make sure battery cables are clean, free of corrosion, and making a solid connection at either end before pulling the starter.

A louder click indicates that your car is sending the signal to the starter solenoid, but either there’s not enough juice flowing to the starter to turn it over, or the starter motor has packed it in. If you've got good power, a  couple solid whacks to the starter might free up stuck brushes and buy you another start or two until you need to whack it again. 

gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 02/16/2019 at 19:35

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If you’ve experienced how violently you have to throw an engine over by hand during a crank start, you really wouldn’t be worried about releasing the clutch to start one. Straight dumping the clutch probably isn’t great, no, but during a crank start, the ob jective is to get it up to speed and firing before it’ s made a full revolution.

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > Jayvincent 02/16/2019 at 20:44

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I went in to two (NAPA and Canadian Tire) and explained my issue and neither of them offered to test anything, nor mentioned it at all, so not sure it’s a thing here (at least at those two places....could also be that it’s a Saturday...?)

Yeah, the fact it’s almost always the battery in the winter is why I thought it was....mistake on my part, I guess! :/

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee 02/16/2019 at 21:49

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Well, I’m not straight dumping the clutch fully, just enough to it slipping against the flywheel starts the engine...I’ve been trying to be as gentle as I can with it!

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee 02/16/2019 at 21:52

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I’m thinking the starter’s packed up TBH. It’s a brand new battery now and I checked the battery cables, and they seem clean and corrosion free when I swapped batteries this afternoon. The click at the starter is intermittent now...the last two times I tried, absolutely nothing happens when I turn the key. The last few times in general I’ve heard it click a few times, and other times nothing. Sadly, I can’t really see the starter motor...at least when I glanced this afternoon....to give it a whack or two. I know it’s on the back of the engine, but it looks like I’d have to take a bunch of stuff (air intake related) off to get to be able to reach it.

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 02/19/2019 at 16:40

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$429 isn’t too bad, could have been worse!

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 02/19/2019 at 16:58

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What for a car?

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 02/19/2019 at 17:08

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Pardon? $429 to replace the starter in my 2009 Hyundai Accent hatchback is what these posts were about. :)

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 02/19/2019 at 17:10

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I’m looking on the bright side of being able to start my car again and at least having it back, it’s just that $429 was more than I was hoping to have to spend right now.

Having to park on inclines to bump-start it all weekend was a bit irritating....though oddly amusing / fun in a sense from having to think far more about which parking lots to park in and where to park IN them so I knew I could just roll from my parking space on an incline to get it started! It’s weird how little we think about where we park until we have to actually think about where we park for a reason! :P Oddly, after having to bump-start it about 7 times on Saturday, there was only ONE store / place I visited that didn’t have an incline in the parking lot / street / driveway in some way that I had to physically push it to get it going again, the Canadian Tire lot in Bridgewater, Nova Scotia! Damn you CT for making your lot too flat! :P

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 02/19/2019 at 17:24

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Nice profit margin for the shop. Probably took them longer to put the car on the lift than it did to replace the starter.

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 02/19/2019 at 17:54

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You think it seems high as well? I know labour rates are high here, but I dunno...the things that need to be removed don’t seem all that time consuming to me...

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 02/19/2019 at 18:13

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I don’t want to be the guy who tells you that you got tooken, because hopefully, you did not. Did they provide you with a thorough inspection of the vehicle for that price? Was there a fee to diagnose the problem? If so, for either one of those things, then you can factor in about $150 of the price.

I have a close friend who runs a full service shop and the prices he charges take my breath away. Your starter problem would have been $175 for a diagnosis plus. Whatever he paid for the starter he would have increased by something like 200%. So you’d probably have been looking at $600 US at his shop.

But there’s an exchange rate of $0.76 US, so in US dollars, your repair comes out to $324, which is not unreasonable, IMHO, given that on Rock Auto, a new starter for your car is around $140 high side, and the shop would probably have to pay more than that.

So my analysis, worth all of $0.02, is that you got a reasonable price. And a warranty, most likely. And your car starts now.

Merfthemadmauler > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 02/19/2019 at 18:35

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The last one  I installed was laying on my back on a piece of cardboard in the rain. I’d do it again for 429 CAD whatever that amounts to.