"Bandit" (2bandit)
12/12/2019 at 09:58 • Filed to: None
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48|
"Bandit" (2bandit)
12/12/2019 at 09:58 • Filed to: None | 0
| 48 |
I’ve been tempted recently to do an engine swap on the Trans Am, I’m getting tired of constantly fixing the 400 and dealing with carbs and struggling with some crappy mods and changes that teenage Bandit did back in the day. LS swaps are cool but kind of boring, not to mention surprisingly expensive - especially when you factor in 3k for a T56 manual. Stock LS1s are only 300hp and when you start adding up all the swap components costs rise quickly (special headers for 2nd gens, etc).
I had a great (terrible) idea the other day, why not put in a 2.0 Turbo out of a modern GM car? Current production LTGs are awesome but the electronics are a killer, and transmissions are super expensive (only option is a 6-spd in the ATS and Camaro) and early-2000s 4-cyls were gutless. So, enter the 2006-2009ish Pontiac Solstice GXP. It has an Ecotec 2.0T LNF engine making 270-290hp in stock form mated to a RWD 5-speed manual Aisin trans used in the Solstice/Sky/Colorado and some Toyotas.
A standalone wiring harness is already for sale and the ECU is the same as the one used in the LS1 so it is readily tunable. Engines are about $1500 used, but for not much more you can get a whole Solstice GXP on copart. The Colorado version of the 5-spd transmission should allow for any standard GM driveshaft slip yoke, and the dimensions are not too out of line with my current Super T-10 4-spd. Replacement transmissions are sub-$500. Fuel system should be relatively I would think. Motor mounts and oil pan clearance are my biggest concern right now.
So it would be a weird swap, but it seems neat to make LS1 power out of such a light engine. Plus from the factor my car had a Turbo, so it would almost be a return to form. Am I crazy?
Sovande
> Bandit
12/12/2019 at 10:20 |
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Wo uld it be cheaper to do an efi swap? Holley Sniper or something? That’s my plan for the El Camino.
Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
> Bandit
12/12/2019 at 10:23 |
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5.3 +heads + single turbo = better turbo Trans Am
M.T. Blake
> Bandit
12/12/2019 at 10:24 |
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No. LS and 300hp are perfect. If you want cheaper go LT1. Nothing to be ashamed about with an automatic.
Don’t go with what I had 412ci Bill Mitchell Hardcore all aluminum small block. It was a temperamental, bat-shit crazy, obnoxious engine.
InFierority Complex
> Bandit
12/12/2019 at 10:26 |
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I have just two words for you.
Iron.
Duke.
Jim Spanfeller
> Bandit
12/12/2019 at 10:27 |
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1. 2jz
2. Ford Ecoboost 4-cylinder
3. rotary engine
4. Pontiac Tempest Le Mans Sprint ohc six
5. Merlin engine.
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Bandit
> Sovande
12/12/2019 at 10:32 |
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Was thinking heavily about it, but I need new heads (I would go aluminum) and the bottom end has about 120,000mi on it so it could probably use a rebuild too since it has oil consumption issues. So the cost adds up at that point to something like 5K+ total with an EFI swap.
Speed
> Bandit
12/12/2019 at 10:33 |
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We picked up an LT1/T56 combo for $1,300 to put in my brother’s ‘80 Formula. You can pick up the entire drivetrain for cheaper than an LS T56 would cost. You’re getting 300 horses out the gate, something unique as far as swaps go, but also super budget friendly.
You can score LT1's all day for a couple hundred bucks AND, the internals are dirt cheap if you ever decide to build it up. It’s just a SBC on the inside. Additionally, time marches on and there’s alternatives to the Optispark set up if that bugs you or if it ever goes out.
With everyone solidly on the LS bandwagon, the LT1's are flying below the radar and offer a ton of potential. Bolt ons and a decent cam can get you 330 or more rwhp. Port the factory heads and you can push 400rwhp or so. An LT1 is NOT that far off from an LS1, especially when you begin modding it. This is coming from a guy with an LS1 4th gen.
For simplicity, we ditched all the EFI stuff, threw a GMPP carb intake on it and stabbed a distributor in the back.
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Bandit
> M.T. Blake
12/12/2019 at 10:33 |
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I spent effort swapping to a manual from an automatic, so there’s no way I’m going back. The car is so much more fun when you get to row your own. I just want simple reliability.
Duck Duck Grey Duck FTMFW!
> Bandit
12/12/2019 at 10:34 |
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You could rebrand your car as an Espirit and put in a bad ass V6
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Sovande
> Bandit
12/12/2019 at 10:35 |
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Understood. Id stick with a V8, just to keep it a "muscle car."
Shift24
> Bandit
12/12/2019 at 10:36 |
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M aybe? IIRC the 2.0l were flooded with piston issues, cracking and so on.
Another idea that’s also do able is a turbo’d 3.8l. Get a junked firebird or v6 Camaro from 96? to 2002. Slap a $ 900 turbo set up on and you’ll be making low 400hp with a tune. Came with a 5 speed manual though for v6s.
The realistic idea is just swap a truck 5.3l . Y es its boring but there is a reason everyone is doing it. Ls1 iirc a has a thin cylinder liners and can only take a light hone.
Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle
> Bandit
12/12/2019 at 10:41 |
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I applaud your research to date; and although I’m a fan of what you proposed someone below made a pretty good case for an LT1...
Snuze: Needs another Swede
> Bandit
12/12/2019 at 10:45 |
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I think it’s a neat idea , and on one hand appreciate the sacrilige, but on the other I think you should go back to your turbo V8 roots. You can do it relatively cheap, and I’m going to tell you how! (Although Bman76 basically already covered it).
Get a 4.8L or 5.3L V8. Most versions are iron block/aluminum head, and some were even all aluminum just like an LS1. Either combo is going to save you some weight over the 400 that’s in the Trans Am currently, and most make in the 275 HP to 300 HP range. LS1s were actually 350 HP (rated 325 in Camaros and Firebirds, but actually made the same power as their Corvette sibblings).
Use THIS as your guide. Wikipedia spells out all the engine codes, what vehicles they came in, power output, and head and block material.
I don’t know where you’re at but my local LKQ junkyards only charge $275 for an engine (less accessories). In fact the closest one to me has several GMC Envoy XLs which have the all aluminum 290 HP LM4 5.3L engine.
Then, if you’re itching for more power, save the factory exhaust manifolds and flip them 180 degrees. Buy or fab a cross over pipe and mount a single turbo in there, and boom, you’re back to a good ol’ Turbo V8 Trans Am!
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Speed
> Sovande
12/12/2019 at 10:48 |
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I LOVE Holley’s Sniper system. I’ve worked with both it as well as FiTech’s unit and can’t sing enough praise about the Sniper. The FiTech is another story.. Spend a few extra bucks and go Holley for a superior product with some of the best customer service I’ve ever dealt with. I actually didn’t need their help on the Sniper, but did when setting up Dominator port EFI on a twin turbo 496 Oldsmobile. Come to find out THAT unit happened to be a Beta version that should have never made it to the public anyway.
Back around 2009 , my stepdad built a small block Olds for Engine Masters. It did around 475 on the dyno with a carb. It got taped up and shoved in a corner for a decade, then we dusted it off, added a girdle to the bottom end, threw some oil in it and put it back on the dyno for a supercharger test. NA it matched it’s previous best with a carb. We then swapped it over to the Holley Sniper to establish an NA baseline with EFI. After a few dyno runs and some minor tweaks, the system was able to self learn to the point of matching it’s previous carb numbers. Once the system ran smoothly, we slapped a Torqstorm centrifugal supercharger on it and tuned our way to 679 horsepower out of that little small block.
Using the Sniper unit was a ton of fun. It’s super easy to wire up, super easy to plumb, is completely self contained and is a really slick install. Most people wouldn’t even realize there’s not a carb on there. Additionally, with each pull the dyno curve would smooth out and more power would be made. The self learning on that system is phenomenal . Just input some basic information on set up and begin making your pulls. It’s such a cool way to go. No injectors in the manifold, no fuel rails, no bulky ECU and it’s really cheap for an EFI conversion.
The FiTech unit did NOT respond as quickly. He even had to send the unit back for a full replacement. The one that worked correctly still wasn’t up to par with the Holley and the customer service just isn’t the same. For as close as they are in price it’s not even a ques tion.
Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
> Bandit
12/12/2019 at 10:52 |
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Gone
> Bandit
12/12/2019 at 10:52 |
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Like the LNF idea and it’s cool to do something out of the box, but an LS or LT1 w/LTCC, EFI 24x, etc. is a nice easy way to 300hp minimum. I also think a 3.6 LFX/LGZ swap could be interesting. In the end the labor to do something different may be more than the cost of doing something easier.
I really like the turbo motor “replacement” so honestly that’s the way to go, but it’s hard to beat V8 = musclecar.
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Sovande
> Speed
12/12/2019 at 11:02 |
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I'm sold.
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Snuze: Needs another Swede
> Shift24
12/12/2019 at 11:09 |
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Even better/cheaper/easier - Get a junkyard 3.8L V6 RWD from a Camaro/Firebird AND a 3.8L Supercharged V6 from a Grand Prix GTP and watch magic happen!
Jesus Arias
> Bandit
12/12/2019 at 11:52 |
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You are more than just crazy you are insane. However it would make for an interesting build. Also that TransAm looks fine as hell.
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Jesus Arias
> Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
12/12/2019 at 11:59 |
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My guy by me looking at this it’s the same as giving a child candy and telling them that they cant eat it.
Long_Voyager94
> InFierority Complex
12/12/2019 at 12:08 |
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Make it 3 words:
Turbo
Iron
Duke
JustAnotherG6
> Bandit
12/12/2019 at 12:18 |
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Get the 2.4 Turbo from a Cobalt SS. Pretty sure those had a manual option, and make it a mid/rear engine thing. /only half s
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M.T. Blake
> Bandit
12/12/2019 at 13:07 |
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Ahhh yes that would be unreasonable. Mine was the same way, started as an auto and was swapped manual. Maybe you could get a cheaper manual transmission. Super T-10? That’s what I had. They can be purchased cheap.
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Bandit
> M.T. Blake
12/12/2019 at 13:12 |
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Ha, I put a S uper T-10 in this summer
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M.T. Blake
> Bandit
12/12/2019 at 13:18 |
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I feel like I should have read a spec sheet before commenting!
just-a-scratch
> Bandit
12/12/2019 at 13:22 |
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how about at Vortec 4.2L with turbo? Some of those straight 6 GM motors seem like good units. Since it’s a bunch bigger in displacement, it might not be so tempermental as a 2.0 turbo setup. They’re a lot less common swaps. So there’s that. No idea on costs though.
HoustonRunner
> Bandit
12/12/2019 at 13:26 |
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Engine swap posts are the best Oppo posts...
Discerning
> Jim Spanfeller
12/12/2019 at 15:28 |
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Why the Ford EcoBoost 4 cylinder? The aftermarket seems small and the stock short block seem s mediocre.
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Speed
> Snuze: Needs another Swede
12/12/2019 at 16:27 |
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$275!? I spun a rod bearing in my ‘98 Z28 and would love to put another aluminum block in there instead throw an extra 80 lbs. over the nose with an iron one. Time to make a phone call...
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Snuze: Needs another Swede
> Speed
12/12/2019 at 16:38 |
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Yeah, where are you located? Check out LKQ Pick A Part. They own a bunch of U-Pull-It yards in random states - there are 5 in the Baltimore-DC area (by me), but their next closest places are Ohio and the Carolinas. They update their inventory almost daily and publish pictures of the car and price list for each yard.
I saw your other posts in this thread , you sound like you know what’s up. I’m starting to go on the hunt for a T-56. I have a crazy/stupid project that I’m starting to plan for - I want to swap a Volvo B8444S (their 4.4L V8) into an older 240 Station wagon and hook up a T56 behind it . The engines are pretty cheap (LKQ has/had a couple V8 XC90s near me and I also see XC90s and S80s on FB and CL with fragged transmissions for cheap somewhat regularly ). It’s finding the dang T56, at least for a reasonable price, that’s the hard part. One thing about LKQ is that they tend to shy away from “performance” cars (if you find a Mustang or Camaro 99% of the time it’s a V6). So any advice on where to look and what to look for? Wikipedia has some good information on the different versions and what cars they showed up in, I’m still trying to decide between the close or wide ratio gearbox - I think it’s going to depend on how tall a tire I can stuff under the 240.
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Snuze: Needs another Swede
> just-a-scratch
12/12/2019 at 16:43 |
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NO! I loved this engine and thought it was awesome until I learned about the chain & tensioner issues. T hey have front AND rear chain drives - front is for cams, rear is for balance shafts and I think the oil pump? It’s a huge freaking hassle to fix anything on that engine.
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Snuze: Needs another Swede
> JustAnotherG6
12/12/2019 at 16:44 |
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SS was either 2.4 N/A or a 2.0L turbo, which is the FWD version of the engine he mentioned above. Though you could turbo the 2.4, but you’d have to tear into it to add low compression pistons and other modifications to really make it happy under boost.
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Jim Spanfeller
> Discerning
12/12/2019 at 21:29 |
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I don’t know. It just popped into my head, and I thought, “Sure, why not?” The engine from the Focus RS would probably be more fun, though.
adamftw
> Bandit
12/13/2019 at 08:08 |
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Drop in a truck 5.3 with a cam and mate it to your trans. Cheap cheap cheap.
jimz
> Bandit
12/13/2019 at 09:15 |
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what’s wrong with the heads?
jebidia24
> Bandit
12/13/2019 at 09:40 |
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You should do not only because it may be more cost effective but also because it is more interesting. LS swaps are boring in most cases, the exception to the rule being the Pat Moro LS3 swapped Chevy Sonic 4wd rally car.
Grindintosecond
> Bandit
12/13/2019 at 10:53 |
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You would need to change out springs and alter shock valving due to the weight change up front. You got a 400. If anything, use the cost associated with the swap to modernize the accessories. Holley EFI bolts right on. Look at electronic ignition hardware. I’m sure Holley has something that goes with the EFI system they make. Then you wont be messing with the c arb and all that jazz of keeping it running, and just enjoy it running awesome.
SBA Thanks You For All The Fish
> Bandit
12/13/2019 at 11:02 |
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Hey, great project!
One of the things we’ve done a couple of times (being known to scrounge deeply into the GM Parts bin) was to use the fact that MA5 Aisins (5-speed) are a WHOLE LOT cheaper that the Tremec/BW T-56s in the aftermarket.
With a “new Corporate Pattern” bell-housing you have lots of choices on motors. The Aisin mounting holes are so common that you can find adapters to mount to most anything.
It’s probably also worth looking at the LFX-ish V6s which will make a lot of power in a relatively small package.
The other thing worth noting is, if 300 HP is the target, you can get there with a $3000 LS1... or a $sub $500 LQ4 or even LM7. We ended up with LS3 heads on an LQ4 block ($400 out the door) in my E46 sleeper wagon. It is 85 additional pounds but even in the BMW I really can’t tell the difference in steering and handling.... I CAN tell the difference when I put down my right foot though. I’m putting 400HP on the ground NA with that combo and a mild (.550-ish) COMP cam.
YMMV. Good luck!
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SBA Thanks You For All The Fish
> Speed
12/13/2019 at 11:05 |
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FULL DISCLOSURE: The problems with Opti aren’t just a myth. ON several LT1/4 cars they can leave you stranded suddenly and irretrievably.
I’ll never do another LT series swap without different spark and fuel. Even going back to carbs is favorable to the house-of-cards that is Opti in my book .
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Speed
> SBA Thanks You For All The Fish
12/13/2019 at 11:27 |
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I’m in agreement on the woes of the Opti; t hat’s why I mention more modern and reliable developments in ignition technology and their ability to be adapted to the LTX platform. You can even run an LT1 coil-on-plug ignition using an LS 411 PCM. LT1 and SBC stuff can be had so cheap that it really does make it a viable option in my eyes.
I’ve got a ‘98 Z28 with a toasted LS1 and well worn 4L60e sitting next to the unfinished ‘80 Formula with an LT1/T56 that my brother has NO immediate plans to finish. I honestly thought about doing the reverse of what everyone else does and dropping that drivetrain into my Camaro. I’ve always wanted a T56 car.
What did you swap? I’d like to check the project out!
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SBA Thanks You For All The Fish
> Speed
12/13/2019 at 11:42 |
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The one kicking my ass right now is a full LT4 Grand Sport engine with T56 (out of a wrecked 96 Corvette Grand Sport ) that we put into a B-Body Impala. I love that car, I love the Brembos all around...
HOWEVER, it did a WILL NOT START during a gas stop 150 miles from anywhere on me. And refused to ever fire again. Cost me two days and a major ass pain getting it moved back to the shop. I was convinced it was fuel... and proceeded to do fuel filter, drop the tank, replace with new Delco pump etc etc...
And, NOTHING! Damn!
So after a process of elimination I figure out the Opti’s shot after 30K miles. I’m mainly disappointed that Opti has no designed- in graceful failure mode. And, that a little debris in the “fine pitch” optical wheel can strand you. They SHOULD have enough info from the coarse timing wheel to at least go into LIMP mode, adopt conservative timing and let you limp it on home. But.... Noooooooo.....
Never again. The 411 PCM approach does beckon...
dogisbadob
> Bandit
12/13/2019 at 11:54 |
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“onl y” 300 hp? And how much power does your 400 make? :p
Won’t the existing manual you have work on the LS1?
You could also use a 3800 V6 with the supercharger, giving you 240 hp. Even the NA is 200 hp, which is about what a stock 400 has lol
There’s also the LT1 everyone else mentioned, and a couple GM crate engines they make
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just-a-scratch
> Snuze: Needs another Swede
12/13/2019 at 12:22 |
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Good to know. Don’t go making life tougher than necessary.
I was just thinking it’s odd that i6 engines get so little love in ‘US’ brands.
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Snuze: Needs another Swede
> just-a-scratch
12/13/2019 at 12:30 |
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It’s because America has never taken inline engines seriously as performance engines. There have been a few attempts (see Pontiac’s Sprint OHC inline 6 back in the 60's ). But for a long time V8 engines made more power and weren’t significantly more expensive, and fuel was cheap. There was just never an impetus to develop smaller performance engines. And from a packaging standpoint, inline 6's are longer. V engines tend to package easier.
This is in a GMC Canyon, which is the 5 cylinder version of the 4200, but as far as I know the inline 6 is the same. Granted, if one were to swap this engine you could do all this out of the vehicle and it would be easier, and hopefully you wouldn’t have to do it again for a long time.
Leo350
> Bandit
12/13/2019 at 14:27 |
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Find a newer, wrecked camaro 4cyl. That’s a nice turbo 4 cylinder with 300+ hp bone stock.
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97TransAmTech
> SBA Thanks You For All The Fish
12/13/2019 at 22:42 |
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D epends if it’s a early or late opti LT1 , later ones had vented opti and didn’t have the same problems as the first ones. I have a 1997 trans am with the lt1 and its passing 250k now and still running strong
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SBA Thanks You For All The Fish
> 97TransAmTech
12/14/2019 at 00:25 |
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Oh, that’s the lore, but I’m three-for-three on the “improved” Opti, with 3 1996 B-Bodies in the fleet . I think the inclusion of “vacuum” to cleanse the optical cavity tends to draw gunk-debris-fluids-contaminants in via the seals.
The LT4 that’s a paperweight right now had a nasty power steering leak, so the theory was that holding a vacuum drew some nastiness into it.
The Roadie wagon had a similar occurrence— but it was the drips from the water pump.
I’m done. We’re running mostly LS swaps anyway. I appreciate the precise spark-and-injection timing Opti gave, but it was fatally flawed. All the LT cars will end up with something else on them— I just can’t afford to get stranded. Being stuck 150 miles from civilization in the desert soured me on the design forever.
Chuck
> Speed
12/14/2019 at 05:10 |
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I have a 94 z28 with the lt1/4l60 auto . You can not under estimate it at all. Mine has long tube headers and a cold air intake and I can run with 5.0 coyotes all day. I absolutely love the lt1. It can be a beast on a budget