"mtdrift" (mtdrift)
12/11/2019 at 13:26 • Filed to: None
2
27|
"mtdrift" (mtdrift)
12/11/2019 at 13:26 • Filed to: None | 2
| 27 |
The time has come to prostrate myself before the great Internet Oracle that is Opposite Lock.
!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , pictured above, has a problem, and I’m at the end of my rope. Any ideas from the hivemind will be most welcome.
The issue is a simple one: it won’t start.
Please don’t take me for a total rube - I’ve been working on aircooled VWs for 20 years, and I’ve scoured the forums and the vast wastelands of the VW-related web for the last week for a possible solution. But I have come up empty-handed every time.
That said, I fucking hate electrical problems, and I realize I’m not a savant by any means.
Here’s the problem in a nutshell:
Despite reading 12.2V where the ignition wire attaches to the coil with the ignition on, there is
no spark
from the coil to the distributor when the ignition is cranked.
This is the case after swapping out THREE different ignition coils. The car cranks happily all day long, but the voltage drops across the coil to less than 8V when I crank it over, so I would assume at level there’s no hope for any spark!
Here are the rest of the variables:
The car was running just fine before this problem happened
Freshly rebuilt original German Solex PICT 34 carb
Excellent fuel pressure
All fuses are good
Brand new battery with full charge (12.8V)
New ignition switch
New voltage regulator
New generator
New points set correctly, new condenser, new cap, new rotor, new distributor wires , and new spark plugs
Timing was on spec when the car died (009 distributor, so as good as it can be...)
With the ignition on, I read 12V along all paths in the ignition circuit from the battery, to the voltage regulator, to the light switch, to the ignition switch, to the fuse block, and all the way back to the coil
I tried to start it with a new patch wire from the fuse block to the coil, thinking maybe the original ignition wire was toast, still no luck
I have followed all the advice I could find from the Bentley Manual, to !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , but still no solution.
Do I actually need to find a fourth coil?
Where am I losing the voltage?!?!
ARRRRRGHHHHHHH!
TorqueToYield
> mtdrift
12/11/2019 at 14:20 |
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Could the battery be bad even if it’s new? You could try load testing it.
CobraJoe
> mtdrift
12/11/2019 at 14:25 |
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Couple of stupid questions:
Is the distributor turning when cranking? (I mean, a broken dizzy might be rare, but it’s easy to check)
Does the engine have a good ground strap? Sounds like you checked the hot side pretty thoroughly, but what about the ground? Are the battery connections good?
Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo
> mtdrift
12/11/2019 at 14:25 |
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Oh I like this game! Looks like you’ve already taken care of all the easy/ obvious stuff so now we get to the weird! If you don’t have a copy of “How to Keep Your Volkswagen Alive” you should grab one. Love that thing.
I’m wiring this assuming that you’ve pulled a plug/wire and checked for spark correctly and didn’t get any. If that isn’t the case... well do that first haha.
Ok.... when my ‘ 63 wouldn’t start it ended up being a painted (PO painted the surface the ground terminated on) battery ground. Not where it connects to the battery, but where the negative battery lead connects to the chassis. Then again, it wouldn’t even crank, so that probably isn’t it. You might also check the ground to the distributor or even add a secondary one if you can.
One thing to check is that your distributor is actually turning when you crank. Unlikely but possible something is wrong with the distributor drive shaft.
Another option to try is to switch to a solid state points system. I had a Petronix Ignitor distributor and “points” on my 63 (73 engine) and it worked pretty well. Better yet, if you get it from some place like Amazon you can return it if it doesn’t solve your problem.
Other than that... I guess make sure you’re using a quality coil, not that it should matter, and that your points and plugs really are OK.
Tekamul
> mtdrift
12/11/2019 at 14:29 |
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V oltage dropping to 8v means either the battery is to weak (I know it’s new) or there is too much current draw.
Are the plugs gapped right? The coil c ranks up the voltage until there’s a spark. It’s possible the plug demands plus the starter motor are too much for the battery. Anybody have a b igger battery you can borrow?
Helpful Suggestion
> mtdrift
12/11/2019 at 14:44 |
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Lift the wire from the coil to the points, then connect a jumper to that coil connection and “tap” the free end on a grounded surface, the coil should produce a fat spark every time you break the circuit to ground, trace the issue from that diag no stic..
RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
> mtdrift
12/11/2019 at 14:44 |
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I’m assuming you’ve ruled out your new points having fused themselves, and your points check doesn’t come from when you installed them.
Victorinoo
> Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo
12/11/2019 at 14:47 |
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1. If the motor is cranking strongly, I’m going to assume engine ground is ok because if it wasn’t you’d have slow cranking as cranking pulls tons of amps.
2. Where are you reading this 8v across coil? Specifically where are you probing the meter.
It sounds like the ground of your distributor may be bad. Have you checked this?
One could theoretically play with a spare
wire and the coil ground and simulate a spark by grounding and then opening the circuit.
Don’t go crazy doing this as you can damage coil
but it would rule out bad coil and isolate your problem to the distributor side of things.
dumpsterfire!
> mtdrift
12/11/2019 at 14:51 |
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Aside from a hammer being an electrical tool for old air cooled cars, my idea selection is going to be limited. Still running full volts and amps through the key switch? I.e. not running the hot start relay mod? That's where I would focus if not done so already. Good luck.
Highlander-Datsuns are Forever
> mtdrift
12/11/2019 at 14:54 |
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Stared for the photo, no freaking clue why the car isn’t starting. My best guess is to start with a fresh battery, then coil, then distributor wire . If all else fails get an electronic ignition.
Snuze: Needs another Swede
> mtdrift
12/11/2019 at 15:03 |
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I’m going with Tekamul’s suggestion. Try pulling a battery out of a good, running car. I think 12.8V sounds suspiciously low. A car batter is composed of 6 x 2.2v (nominal) cells, so it should be around 13.2v. I know that seems silly, 0.6v shouldn’t make a difference, but it can. V oltage is measured under a no-load condition. It’s possible a bad cell is reading somewhat lower than normal under no-load, hence the 12.6v, but when you draw on the battery that cell has nothing to give and actually starts resisting current flow, hence the voltage drop. I had a motorcycle do the same thing, I bought a new battery for it and it would kind of crank over but fail or fire. Resting voltage was around 12.5v (can’t remember exactly, but that was close). I pulled my hair out and threw parts at it. Eventually I tried a new battery and it started perfectly.
C heck to make sure you really are getting spark. If not, is the distributor spinning (broken shaft or something like that)? This is me not knowing the whole distributor and points thing, but is it possible it’s somehow out of phase, as in it’s firing but it’s firing the wrong plugs at the wrong time?
I know you said you replaced the plug wires, but have you checked the wire(s) between the coil and distributor?
Beyond that, are you 100% sure it’s electrical? Have you ruled out fueling issues with that freshly rebuilt carb?
Another thing, and this sounds crazy, but how’s your compression? I had a different bike that had a little oops and the block got cracked . I bought a used engine off eBay and threw it in, and the damn thing would crank but not start. I tried everything, again throwing parts at it , and nothing. Eventually I gave in, took it to a shop, and they were a bit baffled and ended up running a compression check. Turns out the rings & cylinder liners were absolutely shot- rusted away to nothing, and all the air/fuel mixtures was just blowing into the crankcase, never to be fired . This is probably far fetched if the car was running fine just before it stopped, but it is a thing to consider. I would have thought that, despite low compression, you’d get *something* in the way of a bang , but nope, turns out you can get zilch.
ranwhenparked
> mtdrift
12/11/2019 at 21:23 |
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The only thing I’ve got is a bad ground, but with how well sorted everything else is, I somehow doubt that would be it.
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Victorinoo
> mtdrift
12/12/2019 at 09:45 |
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Did you solve the issue?
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mtdrift
> Victorinoo
12/12/2019 at 10:13 |
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Not yet! I probably won’t around to it until Friday... But I’ll keep everyone up to date!
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mtdrift
> Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo
12/12/2019 at 10:19 |
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Thanks for the ideas! I have gone ahead and ordered a Pertronix (I was going to upgrade anyway eventually, so no time like the present, eh?). I do have the Muir book, but to be honest, I may be one of the few people on the planet that kind of hates it. I have a hard time getting past his groovy 60s writing style, dig?
I’m going to replace my ground straps while I’m at it, they’re cheap enough... I’ll let you know what happens.
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mtdrift
> Victorinoo
12/12/2019 at 10:19 |
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I’m measuring between the posts on the coil while it’s cranked. Maybe not the best measure? I guess grounds are going to be my next check... I’ll let you know what happens!
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mtdrift
> CobraJoe
12/12/2019 at 10:21 |
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Huh, good question - the rotor spins when I hand crank it, so I assume the distributor is spinning. But, it is pretty old. I’m definitely going to go through my grounds next. Thanks! I’ll let you know whappens.
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mtdrift
> Tekamul
12/12/2019 at 10:21 |
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Hmmm, good point. Maybe I’ll take this battery down and have it tested, I can probably pull the one from my Subaru in the meanwhile to see what happens. Thanks!
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mtdrift
> Snuze: Needs another Swede
12/12/2019 at 10:25 |
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Thanks! All good suggestions for sure - the engine only has about 9000 miles on it after the rebuild a few years ago, and it was running nice and sweet until this problem cropped up, so I’m guessing it’s probably not a compression issue, but I’m going to re- gap my plugs so there’s no harm in sticking the compression tool in there while I’m at it jus to see...
I am also thinking more and more that it might be the battery. I’m going to drop the one from my Subaru in there and see what happens, also clean up those grounds... I’ll let you know what happens!
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mtdrift
> RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
12/12/2019 at 10:26 |
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Yeah, I’ve regapped the points like 5 times now, lol. But, I just ordered an electronic ignition for it, so I’m going to just get rid of the damn things all together.
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mtdrift
> dumpsterfire!
12/12/2019 at 10:27 |
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Hmmm, yeah, good question - currents seems to be fine through the switch, but I will double check that again.
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mtdrift
> Highlander-Datsuns are Forever
12/12/2019 at 10:28 |
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Lol, I already ordered the electronic ignition, and I think I am also shading toward a possible battery problem as well. I’ll drop the one from my Suby in there and see what happens.
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mtdrift
> ranwhenparked
12/12/2019 at 10:28 |
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Eh, not a bad idea, actually. I’m going to go back through and make sure all the grounds are good and clean.
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mtdrift
> TorqueToYield
12/12/2019 at 10:29 |
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This is kind of where I’m headed with this now as well. When I get stuck back into this tomorrow, that’ll be the first thing I tackle, I think. Thanks!
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CobraJoe
> mtdrift
12/12/2019 at 10:33 |
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Well, I guess it is possible that the distributor could have sheared a pin or the shaft, and would still rotate with the engine but be completely off time (or not spinning at all while cranking ), but that seems even less likely than not turning at all.
Good luck!
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RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
> mtdrift
12/12/2019 at 10:48 |
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My Rover did a surprise based on points not too long ago, so I’ve researched what the correct electronic points are even though I haven’t pulled the trigger.
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Highlander-Datsuns are Forever
> mtdrift
12/12/2019 at 11:11 |
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I’d give Rico at Import Solutions a call too. See if he has any VW experience. They make their money doing head gaskets and wheel bearings on old subarus but some of these guys started on VW and may know a thing or two.
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mtdrift
> Highlander-Datsuns are Forever
12/12/2019 at 15:57 |
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I heard a rumor that Rico opened his own shop recently! But that’s a good idea, regardless.