It needs a buffer.

"Spanfeller is a twat" (theaspiringengineer) 01/30/2019 at 10:16 • Filed to: None

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Insulting hot take incoming

We need a reality check on the Supra.

The only reason ‘we’ care about the Toyota Supra is because of the fast and the furious. Which is why A80s are catching crazy prices but A70s aren’t.

So, a movie starring a probable !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! with a highly modified car made up our minds about the Supra. A real Supra needs a cast iron engine because tuners can’t fathom the effects of weight on cars and only want to push 800hp out of an engine and make the car basically undrivable.

Some say that the Supra should’ve had a 2GR engine, but being cast aluminum, I bet they would’ve been underwhelmed by the tuneability. It’s also heavier in N/A form than the B58.

So about weight, despite more equipment, better crash safety, and more powerful engines, the A90 is as heavy or lighter than the A 80 when you compare model for model.

A real supra needs to be manual because fuck automatics (even if they are quicker) and because only haf of the A80s sold were automatic.

OH half of the cars sold were autos? How the hell did that happen in the 90s!?!

Maybe because of the price, cus a Supra was very expensive back then, more than the equivalent model now.

SO, if we stopped judging the Supra with the movies, maybe we could see that Supras were never “amazing.” it was a competent car, but that’s it.

If you can’t deal with the fact that Toyota did a business venture with BMW in order to get a six cylinder, rear wheel drive coupe to market even with enviromental and safety pressures, then maybe you should buy a BR-Z

Oh sorry, an 86.

shop-teacher > Spanfeller is a twat 01/30/2019 at 10:20

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Also, the movie sucked, the cars in it we re horrendous, and the Mark IV Supra is ugly.

UnderSTeerEnthusiast - Triumph Fanboy > Spanfeller is a twat 01/30/2019 at 10:21

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I cared about the Supra only because in 2019, I’m fine with ANY rwd performance coupe that is new coming to market. The more the merrier.

The reason I wouldn’t get one is that it’s too close to new/lightly used C7 GS money.

bob and john > Spanfeller is a twat 01/30/2019 at 10:21

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I like it becuase we are getting a (likely) tunable, RWD, 2 door, 2 seater sports car that if the 86/brz was anything to go by, will be a LOT of fun to drive and resonably well balanced.

also, adjusted for inflation, a mk4 supra in TT guise was like 70K in todays money. which is a LOT

fintail > Spanfeller is a twat 01/30/2019 at 10:22

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Never cared for the movies or the “hero” figure that hordes of drones somehow worship for no real reason today.

I like the Mk IV mainly because it reminds me of a time before I was a broken down old man. If I chose one, it would actually be an automatic just to see the cult cringe, and it would also be blue.  I am one of those weirdos who likes the Mk 2/wedge Supra and even the tarted up Celica Mk 1. 

Spanfeller is a twat > UnderSTeerEnthusiast - Triumph Fanboy 01/30/2019 at 10:23

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I dislike the Corvette less every day. It's growing on me.

Future next gen S2000 owner > Spanfeller is a twat 01/30/2019 at 10:24

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Psht, nostalgia is an amazing drug. Go get you some ‘member berries.  

Spanfeller is a twat > fintail 01/30/2019 at 10:25

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I like the MK3

What I like about the A80 is that it is absolute 90s styling.

Milky > Spanfeller is a twat 01/30/2019 at 10:25

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Sure its cheaper than the old car but it disappointingly is so close to it in power. IMHO it should over 400hp, give it the M2/3/4 engine. Even if that means you have to charge $60k for it.

EDIT: Also “ we” were young, impressionable and it was about cars.  The movies were fun, and you never knew about Paul’s issues if you just watched them.  

Spanfeller is a twat > Milky 01/30/2019 at 10:26

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Do you think they won't put one in the future?

UnderSTeerEnthusiast - Triumph Fanboy > Spanfeller is a twat 01/30/2019 at 10:26

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I was a mild fan of C5’s growing up, but never really considered a vette until I sat in a C7GS at the BG,Ky corvette museum. Now I really want one. I was planning on an S2000 next year but I may just save a few more years and then pick up a GS. They’re already sliding into high $40’s for a lightly used example. I’m curious to see what 2-3 years would do. They’re a lot of car for the money.

fintail > Spanfeller is a twat 01/30/2019 at 10:28

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When I was in high school, the father of an acquaintance had a turbo Mk 3. The kid I knew wrapped it around a pole.

I remember the first time I saw a Mk 4, I thought it was so flamboyantly weird and I didn’t care for it.  The spoiler was especially laughable, but as it turns out, a hint at things to come . It grew on me quickly, but to a 16-17 year old me, it was a pipe dream.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Spanfeller is a twat 01/30/2019 at 10:28

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Mmmmmm, nothing like the smell of hot takes to perk you up in the morning.

But I’m with you though. The Mk4 supra isn’t particularly “amazing”. Very good all around, but it isn’t wholly unique or different. As you said, the Mk3 goes for a fraction of the price despite being the same c ar, just a bit older (cue fanboys explaining every minute difference while missing that the Mk4 fits the exact same role as the Mk3, just with the expected advancements of technology) . You can easily swap a 2JZ into a Mk3, put on new suspension and brakes, and have as good, if not better, driving experience behind the wheel.

And guess what? This new Supra is actually billed as a sports car. The supra? Supra was NEVER a sports car. The supra was always a GT car - bigger, luxurious, heavier, more for high speed cruising than outright track times. They just happened to be a good source of quality drivetrains and the car itself was nice to drive. Not mind blowing, not laser precise, not overly sharp, just nice. It was nice to drive.

Spanfeller is a twat > UnderSTeerEnthusiast - Triumph Fanboy 01/30/2019 at 10:29

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I sort of can’t get over the aesthetics of driving a corvette, but I like the rest of it.

Maybe if I got a quieter exhaust.

WilliamsSW > fintail 01/30/2019 at 10:29

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The Mk2 is my favorite Supra by far. THAT is the car that made the Supra popular, imho. They were everywhere in the 80s.

The Mk3 was a pig, and the Mk4 was a pig but with a great engine.  

WilliamsSW > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 01/30/2019 at 10:30

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Starred for the point about the Supra being a GT. 100% correct.

Spanfeller is a twat > fintail 01/30/2019 at 10:31

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The A80 was never sold here, I could only catch glimpses of it in car shows or the movies... but still. I'm a 90s styling shrill. I love the R170!

Milky > Spanfeller is a twat 01/30/2019 at 10:31

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They’ve made the 86 since 2012, they have given  it 5 more hp.  Not holding my breath.  

Spanfeller is a twat > Milky 01/30/2019 at 10:34

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But I think this Supra will be more collectible and BMW might pressure them into adding more power.

I can imagine a hybrid 4cyl and an M engined super coupe eventually. 

Spanfeller is a twat > Milky 01/30/2019 at 10:35

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I just saw your edit.

I know we didn’t know.... its just that context needs to be added eventually to highlight how weird the whole thing is

fintail > WilliamsSW 01/30/2019 at 10:35

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The flared fender model, especially. These are pretty cool, and even come in a color I like:

I like these too, the gussied up style works (and I also like the color). When I was in high school around 1994, I knew a kid who had one, I swear it was pearl white, maybe one of the earliest uses of a metallic white. On a saddle color leather, it was a classy old car.  These and the Mk2 also had nice wheels:

Spanfeller is a twat > bob and john 01/30/2019 at 10:36

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A 70k supra today would probably come with an M engine

fintail > Spanfeller is a twat 01/30/2019 at 10:37

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Yo u’re the most vocal SLK lover I’ve seen. Speaking of those, I saw an SLK32 AMG in traffic the other day, a rare bird.

Mk4 was model years 1993-98 in the US.  The latest cars seem to be the rarest.

Tripper > Milky 01/30/2019 at 10:39

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“EDIT: Also “we” were young, impressionable and it was about cars. The movies were fun, and you never knew about Paul’s issues if you just watched them.”  

All of this.

WilliamsSW > fintail 01/30/2019 at 10:40

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I think all of the Mk2 Supras had those fender flares ( the Celica looked similar but didn’t have them).

My aunt had a red Mk2 5 speed that was pretty damn cool for 1985.

That Mk1 in the bottom pic is stunning.  

Spanfeller is a twat > fintail 01/30/2019 at 10:40

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Its a shitty drivers car,I hate the slushbox,  but it’s a peach on the highway... and the styling is becoming better by the day IMHO

fintail > WilliamsSW 01/30/2019 at 10:43

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They were made with less flamboyant fenders - not sure if these were early cars or a base package or something, but I have seen them:

I recall my 3rd grade teacher had a Mk2.

The Supra front clip on that Mk1 really looks right, and I am sure the I6 is also a nice cruiser.

fintail > Spanfeller is a twat 01/30/2019 at 10:44

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That’s what it was meant to be, no matter the looks.  It is a boulevard cruiser with a tiny dash of sport, not a sports car.  I think time has treated it well, 22 years since introduction.

BeaterGT > Spanfeller is a twat 01/30/2019 at 10:46

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Come to the dark side...it’s awesome.

nermal > Spanfeller is a twat 01/30/2019 at 10:46

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I think that the biggest problem with the new one is that it looks dumb.

The F&F version looked cool. The new one looks like it’s trying too hard.

OPPOsaurus WRX > Spanfeller is a twat 01/30/2019 at 10:50

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Nope, I remember going to the Toyota dealership when i was around 10 years old and seeing one of these is the showroom and being like whats going on in my pa nts.  That rear end is amazing.  I also love the RX7, 3000GT nd 300ZX and those (RX7 was) were not in the movie.  Id lose my shit if Mitsubishi made another 3000GT

WilliamsSW > fintail 01/30/2019 at 10:51

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Huh - probably both early and a base.

If you had just showed me that picture without context, I would have said it was a Celica GT, especially with those wheels. But it does appear to have the extra space behind the wheel well that defines the Supra body.

Cruiser is right, these weren’t quick cars, although they weren’t bad by the low standards of the day. 

Spanfeller is a twat > nermal 01/30/2019 at 10:55

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It is a strange design for sure, but its growing on me. Definitely better than the Z4

fintail > WilliamsSW 01/30/2019 at 10:56

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The key is the Supra front end . The only context I could find for the image was “1983", no specific car data, but I have seen them in person.

1980 was a pretty bleak model year. Some decent cars, especially full sized BOF stuff along with some imports, but a lot of thick malaise. The Supra must have seemed fresh and modern even if it was a gussied up Celica.

wbizarre - OEM fetishist > Spanfeller is a twat 01/30/2019 at 10:59

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Yep. As someone who holds no nostalgia for the Supra, my theoretical money would go right here:

Similar price, 6-speed, back seats, a proper M car. And hey, it’s not a “revival” or a “comeback”, because at BMW these things were never gone.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Spanfeller is a twat 01/30/2019 at 11:01

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Here’s my 2 cents. I’m not a supra fan (old or new), I respect their capabilities and tune-ability but it’s not for me. I’m also not a Toyota fan. But I AM disappointed in Toyota and I’ll tell you why.

86/FRS comes out, but they couldn’t really build it so they called Subaru to help them build a sports car.

Supra comes out, but they could’t really build it so they called BMW to help them build a sports car.

Why should people care about Toyota at this point? It’s clearly incapable of building it’s own sports car. 

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > Spanfeller is a twat 01/30/2019 at 11:03

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I’ve seen only 4 of  the F&F movies (does Tokyo Drift even count?) . I largely blame the franchise for the thousands of obnoxiously modified Civics that polluted my town in the early 00's

Spanfeller is a twat > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 01/30/2019 at 11:03

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I think Toyota figured out the benefits of e conomies of s cale.

Now we just need a Rolls Royce based export market Toyota Century

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > wbizarre - OEM fetishist 01/30/2019 at 11:04

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Yeah, I want one. 

Milky > Spanfeller is a twat 01/30/2019 at 11:04

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I mean I hope so, but BMW already said there won’t be a Z4M. But calling a hotter Supra the “turbo” would be funny.

Also yea, you're not wrong.  Paul was wrong to date girls, it should be brought up.  

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Spanfeller is a twat 01/30/2019 at 11:06

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Good for them for finding an affordable way to bring about cars their customers want.

But at the same time - I’m sure as shit not going to respect them as a performance company.

WilliamsSW > fintail 01/30/2019 at 11:08

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Ah yeah, forgot that the Celica had those weird tilt headlights.

1980- 81 was the bottom of the malaise era. Everything out of Detroit was hot garbage, and it’s no wonder Japan was gaining ground - their cars weren’t that exciting and they rusted to bits instantly around here, but they were still better than the Big 3.

Spanfeller is a twat > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 01/30/2019 at 11:08

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Well, they do have a very credible racing team. But yeah for road cars maybe Honda is more in touch with their clients

BeaterGT > UnderSTeerEnthusiast - Triumph Fanboy 01/30/2019 at 11:14

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Hard to find better value for the dollar, I know I couldn’t.

fintail > WilliamsSW 01/30/2019 at 11:31

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All I can think of is engines topped with a spaghetti pile of vacuum lines, cold start issues, stalling, inconsistent build quality, and regrettable styling. They must have had people lining up for Accord sedans and Cressidas. And looking at the MBs of the era, wow.

Now that I look back, I can see that maybe my parents worked around those problems. My dad had a Horizon 5 door of the era, but it was a good enough car, he liked it, and it had no big problems. My mom kept her big mid 70s T-Bird until 1985, dodging the really sad models.

WilliamsSW > fintail 01/30/2019 at 11:43

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I pretty much dodged it, too. I owned cars from 65, 65, 72, 74, 84, 64, then new cars starting in 1990.

And the 74 and 84 were the two slowest pieces of shit I’ve ever owned. 74 Dart Swinger with a Slant6, 84 Mercury Topaz with a 2. 3. Yuk.

camarov6rs > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 01/30/2019 at 11:47

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For the FRS/BRZ I think it’s awesome they were able to bring a low priced RWD sports car to market. If they needed a partner to shoulder some development then fine. However when you are working on the higher end of the market and are bringing back a name that has heritage why do they need to share costs with another manufacturer that basically admitting they are too lazy to spend their time to clean sheet a chassis or an I6 engine. So they just threw money at the problem like a big company does.

fintail > WilliamsSW 01/30/2019 at 11:53

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Funny thing, my mom’s T-Bird was replaced by an 85 Tempo. Slow - I think the fintail could dust it , but we ran it up to 190K miles, and it had few real issues.

My car history was 66 Galaxie, then got older with the fintail, then a 1989 W126, then 1998 and 2002 MBs before I fell into the leasing game (which may stop in a few months). I avoided the mess in the middle.

UnderSTeerEnthusiast - Triumph Fanboy > BeaterGT 01/30/2019 at 12:01

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I know the S2000 is a great car, but it’s hard to fork over $18k or so on a mint 15 year old example with 80k on it when if I wait 2 years longer I can stretch my dollars a bit more and get the GS that will be 5-6 years old with more than likely less miles. Completely different cars, though. I’ve always low key wanted an S2000 but after sitting in one at a dealer, it didn’t give me the same feeling as sitting in the GS. My girlfriend also didn’t like the S2000 at all, whereas she is also enamored with the vette. My pocketbook and preference has the say, but I’d like her to enjoy my hobby too.

UnderSTeerEnthusiast - Triumph Fanboy > Spanfeller is a twat 01/30/2019 at 12:03

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I think it’s different with a sport oriented model ie. GS/Z. My biggest memories of corvettes are boomer modified C5’s at my hometowns car show and seeing a retiree with driving gloves doing 55 in a 65 in an auto C6 vert. I haven’t seen much of that with GS’s. 

CobraJoe > Spanfeller is a twat 01/30/2019 at 12:25

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A real supra needs to be manual because fuck automatics (even if they are quicker) and because only haf of the A80s sold w ere automatic.

I’ve made this argument before: The Supra should have a manual option.

Sure, an auto shifts faster, but the Supra is not a limits bending supercar, it’s a mid level sports car. Every mid level sports car that sells well has a manual option.

Sure, an auto sells more than a manual, but the FR-S still sells around 50% in manual, and any other auto-only sports car in this level sells very poorly. (I’m looking at you Alfa 4c. )

But I agree, the old Supra has become some sort of hero car in hindsight.  Sure, it can be modified into something insane, but that’s true of any car.  I know the block of a Lincoln Mark VIII can withstand 1000hp too, but it’s no hero car.  (I think I’d rather have a Mark VIII over a Supra too).  

DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever > Spanfeller is a twat 01/30/2019 at 12:32

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The thing that makes me care the most about the MkIV Supra, is how rare they are. Only seen one in person. 

BeaterGT > UnderSTeerEnthusiast - Triumph Fanboy 01/30/2019 at 13:13

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Sounds like you’re trying to make the best decision for everyone involved which is wise. And I know what you mean, I cross-s hopped the S2000 with Corvettes and while I liked the car, it couldn’t provide the same value or excitement that the C5Z could.

I’m waiting for C7 prices and a garage before I make the upgrade. Grand Sports look so damn good.

WilliamsSW > fintail 01/30/2019 at 16:53

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The Topaz was mostly reliable other than a CV joint, but it was just a miserable car to drive. Slowest car I’ve owned.   The Dart was slow and a POS - but I paid a whopping $650 for it, so what do you expect?

So the lease on the W212 ends soon? What’s next - W213?

I drove an E300 while shopping and loved it - but wished for more power, and the next engine up was too much $$. I leased my last car, but the lease game isn’t really for me - works well for my wife, though.

fintail > WilliamsSW 01/30/2019 at 17:15

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I am going to at least see if I can buy out the Bluetec. The residual is much higher than market value, by maybe 7K - I have been told different stories by salespeople regarding their ability to negotiate. If they will deal, maybe I will buy it. If not, I have a few choices.

Lease a W213 - but it would have to be a good deal on the right car. Full LED gauges are a requirement, and lacking driver’s assistance might be  a dealbreaker. I also like pano. I’d prefer a lighter colored car, for my OCD clean car sanity. It would have to be at least as decent as the deal on the E250, which may be tough as they wanted to be rid of it.

Find a used W212 E250, as close to a full option load as possible. I again really want driver’s assistance, and lacking full LED headlights is a dealbreaker. I prefer pano, and a ligher color combo.

A used W222 is also a possibility, as they have depreciated a bit now, and are a lot of car for the money.

The darkhorse/oddball is that I plan to at least test drive a G-Wagen. I know they are old and primitive, but I’ve always had the itch, and now may be the time. The expense may call my bluff. I had thought of doing a private import, but I just can’t spend that kind of money without seeing it in person first.

WilliamsSW > fintail 01/30/2019 at 17:27

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Buying the Bluetec (it’s a 350 right?) would make sense if you can get the price down to market - I like the idea of getting a known entity.

I suspect it will be hard to get the deal you want on a 213-they’re very popular around here, and you’re looking for a relatively loaded car, unless you stumble onto one that is weirdly optioned, but you never know!

CPO W222's seem to be quite a good bargain for the 2013-15 models, from what I’ve seen.

I would start looking now, if you haven’t already - it took me a few months to narrow down to the right car, and it seems like you may be looking for something fairly rare, as well.  Good luck! 

fintail > WilliamsSW 01/30/2019 at 17:43

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E250, the 4cyl, which I think is the better choice - marginally less power with more efficiency, and it just feels lighter. The V6 diesel also has some quirks.

I like the idea of having known the car from new, as I care for my vehicles. However, the car has had a couple boo-boos (hit a chunk of cement in the road, hit a huge pothole in the dark which required repairs) that I still worry about. And I leased to not become attached to a car. I think residual is 42K, by lease end in a few months, market may be 35K. I wouldn’t pay anything more, as it will continue to wither in value.

The issue is like you say, I am picky, and it is hard to find the right/rare car. My E250 is an unusual color combo (blue on brown), almost a full load (no distronic). It’ll be hard to find another so loaded. Same for a W213 lease - these seem hard to find with the full LED gauges, especially in E300 form.

For W222s, I find many nicer color combos, high option cars are more common. They don’t seem to have a ton of issues on the forums. Not sure if I want the size, but the car has aged incredibly well and still seems fairly fresh now. I check out cargurus every few days, but I am planning on riding out the lease for at least a couple more months (last payment in May).

The G would be easiest in terms of spec - not insanely picky about color, as I can deal with a truck being dirty.  They are all optioned almost the same way.   But, the entrance fee would be higher.

RT > Spanfeller is a twat 01/30/2019 at 19:39

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I’ve never watched F&F. That being said, I do consider previous Supras to be ‘amazing’. Well, not exactly what they’re hyped up to be - but still relatively impressive feats of engineering. They offered buckets of style, usually performed well, and had a profound cultural impact on the Japanese car scene.

I’m also a fan of BMW, so the partnership with the A90 doesn’t bother me . Even the automatic won’t kill it, in 2019, few cars offer much involvement anyway. If anything , it’s the styling which disappointed me. Still, it’s a new  Supra;  I can’t complain too much .

Vicente Esteve > wbizarre - OEM fetishist 01/31/2019 at 19:58

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Hit the nail on the head. This is the Supra everyone actually wants, now go and buy it.