Political Content. Gun discussion

"PartyPooper2012" (PartyPooper2012)
03/01/2018 at 08:53 • Filed to: None

Enter at your own risk

So Dicks sporting goods and Wallmart and Kroeger are saying they won’t sell guns to people under 21. Such is not the law currently. Isn’t that a form of discrimination?

That bakery that did not want to sell cake to a gay couple... supreme court case. Discrimination against gay people.

With only reason being that one is under 21 years of age being denied a purchase is a discrimination in my opinion.

If this was a law, I can understand it. Society came together and agreed that doing this benefits everyone - sure. But as it sits, there will be lawsuits.

DISCUSSION (77)

Nibby > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 09:04

i’m 7 years old and i can’t buy a gun anymore?

PartyPooper2012 > Nibby
03/01/2018 at 09:07

Now, Nibby. Where did you get this much money and where is your mom?

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 09:09

I can’t imagine that it will stand up in court, as soon as a lawsuit is filed I bet they drop it back to 18 quietly.

CB > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 09:10

It could be argued that yes, it is a form of ageism. But there are plenty of places that have age/height restrictions, for safety or other reasons. For example, a theme park: if you’re too short or too tall for a ride, or too young, you might be banned from riding it for safety reasons. Likewise, there are a few pubs I’ve been too where you have to be over nineteen to enter, even if you’re just going for food. This could be seen as an extension of that, with the store seeing that it is unsafe for them to sell firearms to someone under 21. Does it suck if you’re 18 and want to buy a firearm? Absolutely. But until actual action is taken in the United States by governments in order to deal with the gun problem, then changes by sellers themselves will be the only thing people can do to help.

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 09:10

wait walmart jumped on the noone under 21 buys guns bandwagon? good for them. but think of it this way, the ESRB isnt a policy maker, there are no laws on the books that prevent kids under the age of 17 from buying M rated games. only company policy from those like Best Buy and Gamestop and other major retailers. its basically a suggestion. and no 15 year old is raising a lawsuit to be able to play GTA5. its a bit different because of the whole 2nd amendment thing but i still wouldnt call it discrimination.

functionoverfashion > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 09:11

I believe you’re correct. That’s an interesting move from such big companies.

PartyPooper2012 > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s
03/01/2018 at 09:12

Walmart/Dicks/Kroeger in the news is free advertising for them. This is all just a marketing stunt and won’t stand up in court.

Thomas Donohue > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 09:12

Rental companies generally don’t rent cars to anyone under 25 (EDIT: or if you are 18 or 21, you can rent a very small economy car in some states, at very heft insurance rates). This is done for insurance and safety reasons, as the youngsters have a higher risk for an accident. I don’t believe there are any actual laws around this, and I have not heard of any challenges to the policy.

While this is not an exact comparison since it’s only for rentals (a properly licensed and insured 18 year old can buy a car) I would think the same kind of liability policy can be made for firearm sales.

I believe the states set the minimum age (some are younger than 18), so they’d have to go after them in each state.

Ash78, voting early and often > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 09:14

I believe age discrimination in these types of cases is perfectly legal because age is not a protected class anywhere (race, religion, orientation, etc)

Just look at insurance rates: young male? Pay 4x the median rate or higher. No penalties for the insurer.

A bank makes a policy not to lending to homebuyers in a part of town with high crime and falling property values? Hell no. Doubly so if that area coincidentally is full of a particula protected classes. I think they call this “disparate impact” — even if a policy is logical, if its implementation results in discrimination, then it’s not allowed.

What’s weird to me is that housing CAN create deed restricted “55+ communities” to keep young families out. Usually that’s fine because it’s considered adding people to the tax base without burdening the school system with kids. Always seemed sketchy to me.

PartyPooper2012 > Thomas Donohue
03/01/2018 at 09:14

18 year old can buy a car and will get banged out on insurance. 18 year old might be able to rent a car too... but again... banged out on insurance.

I was 18 once. I had a car accident. I called insurance company to see if I can go rent a car. They said sure.. but they will only cover up to a certain amount. As you said because I was young and more prone to have an accident... but not forbidden.

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > CB
03/01/2018 at 09:15

this is a good take

Arrivederci > Ash78, voting early and often
03/01/2018 at 09:16

This - age isn’t a protected class except when it comes to employment. I’m sure these companies vetted this with their lawyers.

PartyPooper2012 > Ash78, voting early and often
03/01/2018 at 09:16

I believe there have been cases where people were fired because they were too old. Those people then filed lawsuits and won. That is age discrimination. I guess we’ll see what happens.

Nibby > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 09:16

i make money off this site called chaturbate

wkiernan > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 09:16

In what way is this different from laws prohibiting sale of beer to people under 21?

PartyPooper2012 > functionoverfashion
03/01/2018 at 09:17

My guess is that this is a marketing ploy and they will have to back down at first lawsuit

Ash78, voting early and often > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 09:17

This is true, I’m just saying you won’t find it written in any HR handbook. And when they force attrition like that, it usually comes with a nice package and an agreement that everyone is cool with it (ie, indemnity)

PartyPooper2012 > wkiernan
03/01/2018 at 09:19

Umm.. That is a law. Law says sale of alcoholic beverage to a person under age of 21 is forbidden. Sale of tobacco product to a person under age of 18/21 depending on locale is forbidden.

Thomas Donohue > Thomas Donohue
03/01/2018 at 09:20

Kinja'd!!!

PartyPooper2012 > Nibby
03/01/2018 at 09:21

Nibby! Go find your mom and turn off your computer. If your mama isn’t near by, tell your principal. Behave and be safe

Future next gen S2000 owner > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 09:21

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Yes. However, we(the US as a whole) have decided that those damn youths are the only group you can legally discriminate against. Drinking age is 21. Can’t buy cigarettes until 18. Can’t vote until 18 - which I would argue is the most critical right of all. I believe age is only a discriminatory practice when hiring and firing is involved.

Wheelerguy > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 09:21

Is it ageist, though? Frontal nudity and porn is banned for people under 18, but that didn’t stop me from looking at artsy, erotic nudes back when I was 13 and just recovered from circumcision (a thing that happens often in the Philippines).

Thinking that people will litigate because they’re 20 and can’t have a gun seems a bit paranoid, isn’t it? And as an ex-teenager (not an adult, I’m not yet 21!), I would strangle a kid who would dare try to buy a gun, but if they’ve known where to look, how the fuck do I stop them?

PartyPooper2012 > Future next gen S2000 owner
03/01/2018 at 09:24

You maybe onto something, but preventing one to exercise constitutional rights due to age seems like a bad idea.

If you’re a minor and commit a crime, cop surely will put cuffs on you and read you your Miranda rights.

If you’re a minor, you can go protest or say what you wish (without threatening anyone with harm)

BigBlock440 > CB
03/01/2018 at 09:25

A theme park is different than barring someone from purchasing something.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 09:26

Perfectly reasonable. Kids are dumb. Sure people do not magically become less dumb at 21 but it at least attempts to deal with the lowest common denominator. This is probably more of a PR move than actually making a difference but the idea is sound in theory at least. Being discriminated by age is already a systematic thing anyways so its not surprising in the least. Better background checks regardless of age would be more useful but thats harder to promote in such a way to make you money as a company.

Future next gen S2000 owner > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 09:27

You’d think so but schools can dictate what students wear and what they can’t. That is in direct violation of the 1st amendment - which has been expanded to freedom of expression. Courts have up held dress codes, but I’d have to double check that.

I’m not saying they have all their right stripped away but if you are under 18 your ability to exercise those rights is severely curtailed.

Thomas Donohue > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 09:27

Agreed...as long as you cover the liability (at a cost) the give you the car.

With firearms, there is no insurance requirement. Since the stores are accepting that liability (i.e. if the gun is used for an unlawful purpose, and the victim sues the store), I’m thinking they can raise their age requirement for similar reasons.

PartyPooper2012 > Wheelerguy
03/01/2018 at 09:27

If your daddy and grand daddy are going hunting and they want you to come with... but you cant because your’e an 18 year old and can’t buy a long gun... that there is discrimination.

Sure daddy or grand daddy can give you one of their weapons, but according to law, giving your firearm to anyone is against the rules.

BigBlock440 > Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero
03/01/2018 at 09:27

The difference with that is, at 18 you’re considered an adult. You can vote, join the military, get charged with adult sentences, your parents could legally kick you out of the house, etc. None of that applies to a 15 year old, and you still need a legal guardian.

PartyPooper2012 > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%)
03/01/2018 at 09:28

once it becomes a law, I’ll support it. Right now however, I see it as age discrimination

PartyPooper2012 > Future next gen S2000 owner
03/01/2018 at 09:30

This is true. Even today I can get a job that requires me to shave my face and wear a suit or something

Shift24 > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 09:30

Yes but believe it or not the job of the government is to protect its citizens. So the Law suits will be thrown out as all the government has to say is that it is for the protection of its citizens. I have seen similar arguments for Seat Belt laws. The only way i can see this being different is because of the second amendment as you are infringing someones right to bear arms and an age is not determined.

Not selling a cake to a gay couple isnt endangering anyone and is discriminating against one group of people. Age happens to everyone and not just one group. Also another reason why the drinking age of 21 hasnt changed in 30+ years. Though god for bid that kid waits 2 years then has access to any gun. But by law makers and gun sellers thinking, if he was an adult he would have known Assault rifles are for hunting animals not people.................................................................

PartyPooper2012 > Shift24
03/01/2018 at 09:36

Assault rifles are for hunting. lol.

I don’t necessarily agree that hunters need assault rifles. Nothing wrong with a bolt action rifle. But that’s a discussion for another day.

crowmolly > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 09:37

With only reason being that one is under 21 years of age being denied a purchase is a discrimination in my opinion.

Discrimination? Sure. Doesn’t mean it’s illegal though. They don’t let kids into strip clubs either. And some insurance companies won’t write to people under 25.

You are allowed to choose your customers.

Wheelerguy > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 09:39

Sure, but then again, what do I know, I’m in the Philippines, where the paperwork takes more time than getting the actual fucking gun so no one bothers.

PartyPooper2012 > crowmolly
03/01/2018 at 09:40

Not according to the bakery.

If you have enough money to rent a car while young, you can with a legal driver’s license.

If the content of your business involves alcohol or nudity, I believe there are laws on the book that permit you to turn away customers who do not meet the age criteria.

However, without a law that says you have to be of this age to purchase a firearm.... that’s grey area

Shift24 > Nibby
03/01/2018 at 09:40

No but you could buy or print a 3D printed receiver for an AR15 then buy the barrel, stock, magazine, the things that make it go “pew” and assemble it and be perfectly fine to go hunting...... All while being completely legal.

PartyPooper2012 > Wheelerguy
03/01/2018 at 09:42

From what I recall, guns are illegal all together there... or at least during elections... I don’t know how that works. During elections do you hide your weapon in government safes?

crowmolly > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 09:43

There’s legal protection involved the bakery story.

Ok, try this. Some classic insurance companies won’t insure anyone under 25. If you wreck joyriding the claim is not paid.

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > BigBlock440
03/01/2018 at 09:46

but you still cant drink or gamble until youre 21. maybe they need to raise the age you can smoke, vote, and join the military to fit

PartyPooper2012 > crowmolly
03/01/2018 at 09:46

Been there. Done that. Got a t-shirt.

Wrecked my car when I was young. Insurance company said I can go get a rental car but they will only pay small portion of what the rental company will charge. Basically unobtanium... but could have been done if I had enough money. Like Warren Buffet or Jeff Bezos money...

It’s a lesson one learns as a youngster. Don’t fuck up. It gets expensive really fast

Wheelerguy > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 09:47

Guns need licenses here, which is hard and red-tape-riddled to get, and guns are expensive to begin with (only revolvers and home-made ones get around in gangs; more organized groups get Glocks and surplus). Elections call for bans on guns, same during the end of the year.

Also I have never been to any acquaintance who has any gun, but if they do (I assume the rich do), they’re well-hidden, and are only used as plot devices in telenovelas here (not the latter, but I won’t be surprised).

crowmolly > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 09:48

Which company? I’m only talking about classic agreed value stuff.

Arrivederci > BigBlock440
03/01/2018 at 09:48

How? A little person may have paid the same admission fee I did, and isn’t able to ride the same rides because the theme park has determined their height to be too short for safety reasons on the rides. Dicks/Field&Steam/WallyWorld have determined that they feel it’s unsafe to sell firearms to kids. Both groups are being denied purchase of an activity or item because the seller considers it unsafe.

PartyPooper2012 > crowmolly
03/01/2018 at 09:48

I had statefarm at the time.

PartyPooper2012 > Wheelerguy
03/01/2018 at 09:50

Funny. A friend of mine was there this summer and was shooting lots of nice rifles. I am guessing those guns belonged to someone rich as they were really nice even by US standards.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 09:57

With the current congress/white house in place, there is no way actually productive laws can get passed. This is why state laws and commercial policies are the only way we can be progressive and move forward. Its the usual get nothing done (at best) for four years and then 8 years spent cleaning up the mess, rinse and repeat forever.

Thomas Donohue > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 10:02

Is that really a federal law? It’s my understanding that an adult without a gun license can fire someone else’s weapon at a shooting range in NJ, which has tighter laws than most states. I’m wondering if there’s a similar exemption on private property, or for children under 18 or whatever age (30 states do not have a minimum age for gun ownership).

PartyPooper2012 > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%)
03/01/2018 at 10:04

Sadly, you are only wrong about one thing... it’s not just the current congress/white house.... it’s every congress/senate/white house.

Nothing gets done. We only run up national debt. Spend money to support shit we don’t need and liberate countries around the world that need more democracy.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 10:05

I just hope it raises further awareness to the fact that we need to fucking do something about gun violence and in my opinion, most of all, it needs to stop being influenced by the NRA, who has an unfair financial advantage and therefore is biasing any meaningful progress we could ever hope to make. (most) Lobbyists are pure evil.

crowmolly > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 10:05

I’m talking about Hagerty, Grundy, etc.

PartyPooper2012 > Thomas Donohue
03/01/2018 at 10:06

I lived in NJ. I believe you can go to a gun range and rent a gun. If I own a gun and give it to you, it’s against the rules. If you go and shoot me in the foot... its my own damn fault and I can go to jail...and sit right next to you.

BigBlock440 > Arrivederci
03/01/2018 at 10:10

an activity or item

Because an activity is different than an item. One is actually physically dangerous to occupants that fall outside of that age range, the other is not. One is saying “you can’t ride because you’ll fall out and die” the other is saying “we don’t like you, so we’re not going to sell you this object”. Amusement park rides are designed to fit a specific size and shape of person, and exert forces most people can safely handle. People that fall outside of those parameters are not physically safe to ride.

PartyPooper2012 > crowmolly
03/01/2018 at 10:10

:) yep. Those are old and classic. But what 18 year old kid has a car that needs those to insure a hooptie?

Rico > Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero
03/01/2018 at 10:13

You have to be 21 in New York to buy tobacco.

BigBlock440 > Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero
03/01/2018 at 10:13

but you still cant drink or gamble until youre 21

That depends on the state, but yes, if we’re going to say 18 year olds are no longer adults, we need to be consistent. Even a 26 year old is still considered a child to the government now.

crowmolly > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 10:14

There’s no shortage of kids that buy an old clunker and fix it up only to not be able to get classic insurance. I was one!

Thomas Donohue > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 10:18

Here’s the Federal law:

Temporary use of Another`s Firearm

Provided that all other laws are complied with, an individual may temporarily borrow or rent a firearm for lawful sporting purposes throughout the United States.

So assuming your state allows it (again, 30 states have no minimum age), it appears that you can go hunting with Pops and GrandPops.

Keep in mind that purchasing and possessing are two different things. If they raise the national purchasing age to 21, it would not affect the above unless it was similarly amended.

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20040324/citizen-s-guide-to-federal-firearms-law

BigBlock440 > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs
03/01/2018 at 10:21

t needs to stop being influenced by the NRA, who has an unfair financial advantage

What? The NRA gets the majority of it’s money from it’s membership, and doesn’t spend much more than $50 million Michael Bloomberg spends by himself . The NRA isn’t even in the top 20 in lobbying groups. Amazon spends more money lobbying than the NRA does.

Shift24 > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 10:26

I agree. Bolt action is all you need for hunting. Just seems unfair if you can spray 30 bullets, eventually you are going to hit something.

PartyPooper2012 > Thomas Donohue
03/01/2018 at 10:27

Let’s go with that then. I stand corrected.

PartyPooper2012 > Shift24
03/01/2018 at 10:29

In the olden days humans hunted with sticks and stones... and now we need a guided missile to kill a rabbit.

If you need an assault rifle to go hunting, I think you’re doing it wrong... but that’s my opinion.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > BigBlock440
03/01/2018 at 10:41

Well, is it the NRA that’s blocking sensible gun legislation, or is it someone else? And I’ll add: sensible in my opinion.

DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time > crowmolly
03/01/2018 at 11:00

Yep, I’m pretty sure the rule about having to be 21 to rent a car is a rule that companies made up, not a law. Could be wrong though.

DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 11:01

I wouldn’t think so, because it states where it’s legal to go to a club at 18 there’s still places that require you to be 21.

Arrivederci > BigBlock440
03/01/2018 at 11:03

And clearly these companies consider it unsafe for a child to be handling a firearm, it has nothing to do with like/dislike.

My bird IS the word > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 11:11

Legally, it could go either way. Guaranteed someone is going to sue for damages. I can’t think of a single other scenario that isn’t backed by state law. Whether they win or not is kind of arbitrary, as it is likely to be politically biased by the respective judge. Supreme court will probably refuse to hear it. It won’t settle, so state court will probably hold.

BigBlock440 > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 11:56

I bought my Charger when I was 15. I was on my parents insurance policy though, not sure if that made a difference, but probably.

BigBlock440 > Arrivederci
03/01/2018 at 11:58

If they still sell hunting licenses to anyone under 21, then they clearly do not consider it unsafe. Again, one is based on actual, physical limitations of the ride, the other is based on some arbitrary feelings.

BigBlock440 > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs
03/01/2018 at 11:59

Where is the unfair financial advantage?

PartyPooper2012 > BigBlock440
03/01/2018 at 12:48

Your parent’s insurance went up a bunch... had you crashed it, their insurance would have multiplied. Ask me how I know...

BigBlock440 > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 12:59

I don’t think it did, it was registered as a classic, which has mileage limitations. I had a different car as a DD, which I did get into an accident with after 2 months. They had accident forgiveness so their insurance didn’t go up, I lost a discount or two so mine did.

PartyPooper2012 > BigBlock440
03/01/2018 at 13:05

gotcha... yeah. I never had experience with those types of cars or insurance. I had my $1800 Acura I needed to get to school with.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > BigBlock440
03/01/2018 at 13:38

The side that wants as little gun legislation as possible has very deep pockets.

BigBlock440 > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs
03/01/2018 at 15:12

The side that wants guns gone has even deeper pockets.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > BigBlock440
03/01/2018 at 15:19

You are joking right? The NRA alone spent almost 5 million dollars last year. Lobbying for gun rights in total was over 10 million.

The gun control lobby spent just under 2 million. (2017 numbers)

https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/indusclient.php?id=Q13

https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/indusclient.php?id=Q12

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > PartyPooper2012
03/01/2018 at 17:08

EVERYWHERE NEEDS THE GLORIOUS SPREAD OF FREEDOM!

It is a fundamental part of how a constitutional republic works, its supposed to take a LONG time for stuff to get done. I get that part, it shouldnt be incredibly easy to get things done. But it seems to me like stuff like the government being on the verge of shut down and crazy fillibuster stuff make it all a mess. It sounds like people are playing games to make money rather than actually run things right.