Jalops don't know what sleeper cars are...

"Manwich - now Keto-Friendly" (manwich) 05/23/2016 at 19:01 • Filed to: None

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After reading this:

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... and the preceding article where people made suggestions, it’s clear to me that at least half of the Jalops don’t know what the hell a ‘sleeper’ is.

So I’m gonna explain it.

First, I’ll explain what a sleeper is NOT.

It’s not a BMW, Jag, Lexus, turbocharged Saab or any other car from a brand that has performance cred.

A sleeper is also NOT a car that has spoilers, hood scoops, wheels/tires that look high performance or have any badging that suggests performance.

Thus, of the 10 cars on the list, only one of them (the Buick Park Avenue Ultra) qualifies as a true sleeper. No, the Volvo 240 ain’t a sleeper either... not with that automatic transmission and naturally aspirated 8V SOHC 4 cylinder engine. All that is, is a durable Swedish commuter car. It doesn’t have the performance to surprise anyone... and thus, isn’t a sleeper.

A sleeper is a car that is known for being mundane, ordinary and nothing special in terms of looks and performance, but actually has performance that are far greater than the looks and performance of that car would suggest.

So... I shall give you some examples of a sleeper:

-The 1st gen Oldmobile 88... it was a lighter Olds 76 with the Rocket V8 dropped into it. It had performance that was much greater than anyone would expect from an Olds at the time: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

-A 3rd Gen Altima 3.5L SE with the ‘3.5L SE’ badging removed: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

-An old Dodge Dart that looks like this:

... But has the heavy duty suspension, brakes and either a high compression RB engine or a high compression 340 LA V8 and a manual transmission (3-on-the-tree with a lower geared rear end for the ultimate sleeper)

-This Ford Fairmont wagon:

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-The Oldsmobile LSS from the 1990s with the optional supercharged 3.8L V6... compared to the Buick Park Avenue Ultra, it’s less flashy, has less weight, same power and handles better

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So that, ladies and gentlemen, is what a sleeper is.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/23/2016 at 19:10

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Park Avenue Ultra best stock sleeper ever. Reliable as hell, comfy as the bed you wish you had, faster than it has any right to be, and easy to mod for waaaay moar poawer, and decent on gas. I can’t think of another car with that combination.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/23/2016 at 19:10

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Thank you for that definition of a sleeper. I disagree with it though.

It’s not a BMW, Jag, Lexus, turbocharged Saab or any other car from a brand that has performance cred.

Most of the population does not, despite what we believe, look at anything with a premium badge and think, “oooh, a fast car”. Some do, but most don’t. If I put that 540i next to a Miata or Celica, plenty of non-car people would tell me the Miata is faster because it looks like a sports car while the BMW looks like a normal sedan. As for spoilers, absolutely everything has a spoiler these days. Corollas. Cameras. Civics. Elantras. Malibus. Etc.

A sleeper doesn’t have to be a normal car that’s been made fast. Like I said, in order to surprise most non-car people, any of these cars minus the Volvo will do.

A sleeper is any car that is faster than most people would think. Most non-jalops don’t think those cars are fast.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/23/2016 at 19:13

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It’s a 1989 Dodge Caravan that does a 12 second 1/4 mile at 105mph. Fucking kids these days...

http://www.turbovan.net/van.html

MKVJunkle > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/23/2016 at 19:13

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About 15 years ago, I used to have a ‘74 Swinger almost that same color with a little bit hopped up 318 and a 904. With the turndowns there was nothing sleeper about it. Thanks for the nostalgia.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 05/23/2016 at 19:13

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I agree... though I would rate the Olds LSS from the 1990s a little higher. It’s a little smaller, more bland looking, lighter, but with the same engine as the Park Avenue Ultra.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 05/23/2016 at 19:14

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Yes... definitely... can’t star this enough.

E90M3 > sm70- why not Duesenberg? 05/23/2016 at 19:15

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I agree with exactly what you said, or even something like an original M5, take off the M5 badges and you have to be a serious car person to know that it has a racing derived straight 6 under the hood.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/23/2016 at 19:16

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Still a secret dream of mine to dinner one like this with a big soccer ball on the back windshield...

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > sm70- why not Duesenberg? 05/23/2016 at 19:18

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I owned a Saab... and everyone I knew, particularly among those who didn’t know much about cars, commented that it must be an expensive and great high-performance drive.

In my experience, most of the population DOES think “ooh, a fast car” when they see that premium badge.

So cars like BMWs, Jags and such attract attention. The whole point behind a sleeper is to NOT attract attention.

And that’s why I say a sleeper is not a BMW, Jag, Lexus, Saab or any other brand that has a performance cred.

E90M3 > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 05/23/2016 at 19:18

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I always dreamed of doing the same with an R63 AMG

Frenchlicker > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/23/2016 at 19:20

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I will have to agree with you. A sleeper is like one of those murderers you read about in the paper “,He was such a nice boy, I would have never expected this.”

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > E90M3 05/23/2016 at 19:21

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To be fair, I witnessed one of these get dominated by a modern 328i. They aren’t that quick. 0-60 is less than half a second quicker than my Fiesta. A Camry is quicker. A Camry V6 is a sleeper.

Jesse Shaffer > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/23/2016 at 19:21

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Dad had a ‘70 340 Swinger with an inverted shifter for the strip. Love that car.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Frenchlicker 05/23/2016 at 19:23

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Yes... exactly...

crowmolly > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/23/2016 at 19:27

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This is a sleeper. It runs 8's.

8's

To a certain degree it has to look like a janky POS. That excludes most luxury cars. If it advertises FI, that’s not a sleeper either. The speed has to come out of nowhere.

Garrett Davis > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/23/2016 at 19:28

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Honestly I don’t think any average person would look at this:

And have any idea that it could beat the Mustang GT of the time to 60.

E90M3 > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 05/23/2016 at 19:31

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I meant like back in the day, the m5 now isn't too sleeperish

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Garrett Davis 05/23/2016 at 19:35

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Depends on what year of Mustang GT you’re comparing. Most people definitely wouldn’t think it’s a slow car, that’s for sure.

And it’s definitely not a bland/boring car that attracts no attention. Nor does it have a reputation for mundane performance.

Thus, not a sleeper.

Give it some steel wheels and Toyota badging and then we can talk.

Bourbon&JellyBeans > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/23/2016 at 19:36

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You think THAT attracts attention?

Dusty Ventures > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/23/2016 at 19:36

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I’ve had similar experience with non-car people and “performance” brands, so I’ll agree with you on that. I’m going to disagree with you on the wings and hood scoops though. As others have mentioned, wings are available on the slowest of the slow these days. And as for hood scoops, I’d say that depends what it’s on. Hood scoop on a Subaru sedan, and yes, people will probably get that “performance vibe” just because they know the Impreza is a go-fast Subaru with a scoop and non-car people can’t differentiate between the Impreza and the Legacy. Stick that scoop on the wagon (or the Forester) though and it’s like you threw a beige Camry suit over it. My Outback flies under the radar of everyone, even rally people who supposedly know Subarus.

Another reason scoops don’t make people think “it has a scoop it must be fast” is the large quantity of purely ornamental scoops that are on pretty much everything these days. Like Toyota pickups. Nobody looks at the scoop on one of those and says “that must be a fast truck”

Honeybunchesofgoats > sm70- why not Duesenberg? 05/23/2016 at 19:36

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I totally agree with this. People must think I’m driving some 80s luxobarge, because my daily commute almost always has at least one dipweed camping out in the passing lane who will floor it when they see me signal to change into their lane and then get their panties in a twist when they can’t block me.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > crowmolly 05/23/2016 at 19:37

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Definitely. Even has the tatty old original seats... and steel wheels!

crowmolly > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/23/2016 at 19:38

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Fooled you too... those look like Weld Draglites.

Land_Yacht_225 > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 05/23/2016 at 19:40

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I miss my 1994 Ultra sometimes. I bought a bad one. Plagued by pressure leaks, transmission issues, and a lot of rust. But for the first month I owned it, I kicked ass on the way home after school.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Dusty Ventures 05/23/2016 at 19:42

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If you want a true sleeper, no scoop > scoop. Also, no wings/spoilers > having wings/spoilers.

I would also say that for a true sleeper, ditch the nice looking aluminum wheels for basic steelies. Especially in cold climates, it will be assumed that you’re a cheapskate riding on your winter tires year-round.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Bourbon&JellyBeans 05/23/2016 at 19:43

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Yes... much more than a Buick, Oldsmobile, Camry, Civic, Focus or in the past, a regular old Dodge Dart with the cheap wheel covers.

Garrett Davis > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/23/2016 at 19:43

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2001 Mustang GT 0-60 (according to C&D): 6.0 seconds

2001 Lexus GS430 0-60 (according to C&D): 5.7 seconds

Dude. No average person would give that granny-mobile a second look. It’s as invisible as a beige Toyota Avalon. Hell, even most car guys wouldn’t even glance at one. Personally, I had no idea these were so quick, and I even brought out the September 2001 issue of C&D where I got that stat from.

Berang > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/23/2016 at 19:47

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Gremlin V8 would sleep.

Dusty Ventures > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/23/2016 at 19:51

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I agree no wing/scoop is more of a sleeper than a car with a wing/scoop, I’m just saying if it has a wing or a scoop it doesn’t mean it’s not a sleeper at all. At least in my opinion sleeper isn’t a yes/know thing, it’s got a bit of range to it. Like there’s “damn, I didn’t expect that” sleepers, and then there’s

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Garrett Davis 05/23/2016 at 19:53

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Nobody would be greatly surprised that “an expensive Lexus” can beat a Mustang. Some people also assumed my old Saab 9-3 could beat a Mustang.

What you just said is just reinforcing what I said.

The Lexus is also NOT a granny-mobile. A granny mobile is something like a Toyota Yaris (my mom has one) or some other non-fancy car. Or an Acura 2.2CL is another granny car... I knew a granny that had one.

A Lexus GS430 is what a woman who is married to a wealthier guy drives.

Sidenote: I knew they are quick. The 0-60 times you posted don’t surprise me at all. Even the original LS400, which is bigger, has less power (but still more power than the Mustang GT of its time) and more weight was/is fairly fast... and still reasonably fast by today’s standards.

Now if you showed me what looked like a stock 4 cyl Camry or a stock Toyota Prius that could beat a Mustang GT, THAT would be a REAL sleeper...

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/23/2016 at 20:01

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I’m going to disagree with you on one point. A vehicle can have all kinds of scoops and vents and still be a sleeper, provided it looks like a ricer. As long as it looks like that, everyone’s expecting a lot of show and no go,therefore it’s a sleeper.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 05/23/2016 at 20:03

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True... but adding the scoops/vents makes it less of a sleeper than if it looked completely stock. That extra stuff attracts attention. The point of a sleeper is to NOT attract attention... combined with performance that is far greater than the looks suggest.

jasmits > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/23/2016 at 20:05

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Toss an LS in that Volvo and it’s a sleeper. That Volvo is not a sleeper with the auto and the 4 pot.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > jasmits 05/23/2016 at 20:05

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Agreed.

Garrett Davis > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/23/2016 at 20:13

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My girlfriend’s grandparents drive a GS400, and their neighborhood is full of them. I just asked my GF which car she thought was faster, her grandparent’s Lexus, or my 300ZX. She said my car, and was wrong.

It’s OK to disagree. We have differing opinions. That’s the way of life.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Honeybunchesofgoats 05/23/2016 at 20:14

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What car

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Garrett Davis 05/23/2016 at 20:26

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300ZX... a car that looks smaller and much more sporty than the Lexus... I can see how the average person could guess wrong there.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Dusty Ventures 05/23/2016 at 20:26

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This. It’s a range, not a yes/no.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/23/2016 at 20:27

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OK, I’ve got to completely disagree there. Nobody gives an old Lexus a second glance.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > crowmolly 05/23/2016 at 20:28

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As Someone else already said, it’s a range, not a yes/no thing.

RMCjr > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/23/2016 at 20:31

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Yes and no. For any low performance version of a typically high performance car (90's V6 Mustang running a big turbo, for example), I think spoilers, scoops, and neon lights add to the sleeper effect. At least, they add to your chances of successfully hustling somebody at the races.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > sm70- why not Duesenberg? 05/23/2016 at 20:34

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Compared to a Camry or a Prius? And if someone looked at the badge and saw ‘GS430', you don’t think the average person would believe it has at least ‘pretty good’ performance?

Nah... that’s not what I’ve experienced or observed. In my experience, people assume that ‘great’ performance comes with the badge.

But then, where you live also plays a role. If, for example, you lived in Dubai, I could totally understand your point of view... where sights like this are common:

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > RMCjr 05/23/2016 at 20:36

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I think they have to be crappy ‘Pep boys’ spoilers and scoops to pull that off.

AkursedX > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/23/2016 at 21:19

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This is a sleeper from the guy who did the install in my Fiero (Ryan Gick of Sinister Performance) Its an 89 Buick Skylark with a 3800sc install. Could you imagine losing a race to this?

kmoney > crowmolly 05/23/2016 at 22:58

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Is the the one from the videos where they guy basically rolls into the track, makes one pass and is sent home for not having a cage etc... That car is awesome.

therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary > Garrett Davis 05/23/2016 at 23:02

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I’m with you. I remember when the IS300 came out and the car mags were all abuzz that Lexus actually had a fast car. I think Lexus says boring but comfortable. They’re the Oldsmobile of our generation.

Alex Zapata > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/24/2016 at 00:02

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Would you agree this is a sleeper?

RMCjr > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/24/2016 at 00:06

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But of course. Some cheap aftermarket wheels in the same diameter as factory would help too.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Alex Zapata 05/24/2016 at 00:58

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Replace the MS3 wing/badging with base model wing/badging, install smaller steel wheels or base model OEM aluminum wheels, replace the Mazdaspeed3 grill and fascia with a base model one:

raise the ride height back to base model levels/stock:

and somehow upgrade it with the Mazdaspeed3 engine AND the AWD from the Mazdaspeed6. And them maybe have it tuned to produce more power.

Then you’d have a sleeper.

Alex Zapata > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/24/2016 at 01:10

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No, I’m sorry that’s dumb.

You want something that can’t exist, I’m talking real world yeah? You said something that nobody expects to have that level of performance, that’s a sleeper, a car that either you or R&D department of your favorite brand put 0$ on making it look agressive and all or most of the difference resides on the performance, a Speed3 to 99% of regular people and like half of car people looks like a stock 3, taking it over the top would be completely expensive and pointless.

Even people who like cars don’t identify it as a Speed and even so, my stock Speed3 could keep up with 1Ms and I beat Camaros and Mustangs with it and they’d pull me over to ask what mods it had and literally you could see them shit themselves when I told them it was stock. (I know living very high up gave it an unfair advantage against NA engines, but their shock still remained)

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Alex Zapata 05/24/2016 at 01:32

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Are you telling me that a Mazdaspeed3 that has had base model exterior trim bits installed and possibly modded with the AWD system from the 6 WOULDN’T be a positively amazing sleeper?

And you’re calling me dumb?

I’m not doubting the performance of the MS3. But it’s not that much of a sleeper.

What I describe can exist... but someone has to make it themselves. And there’s nothing dumb about it. If you want to have a true sleeper that will even fool people who know about cars, you make it look like a base model while having the mechanicals and performance as good or better than the Mazdaspeed3.

At the very least, de-badge it if you want it to be a sleeper. Many people know what ‘Mazdaspeed’ means. And many people can tell what the bigger wheels and lowered suspension implies.

I didn’t need to see the badge to know. I could tell right off the bat.

Sure, the differences are a bit more subtle on the MS3 than other cars, but it’s still an advertisement of the performance the car has.

Most people these days don’t really want true sleepers. Most people want people to see that they spent the extra money on the high performance model.

Nothing wrong with that... but if you’re advertising the performance cred with badging, a lowered suspension, a different grill and bigger/flashier wheels, it’s not a sleeper.

Honeybunchesofgoats > sm70- why not Duesenberg? 05/24/2016 at 05:20

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2001 XJ8. It's not so fast compared with how crazy modern cars are getting, but it's still faster than what people who make smarter life decisions than I tend to commute with.

Alex Zapata > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/24/2016 at 07:43

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It is not possible, the whole front of the car is entirely different to the normal one, the hood has to make space for scoops that brimg air into the intercooler, and the grill ensemble clips into that, it’s a different size and fits into different clips, the wings (quarter panels) are completely a different shape and obviously the bumper is as well.

The amount of fabrication needed just to make a grill fit is ridiculous and since the intercooler is on the top of the engine you either have to use the original solution or put a scoop on it since the Speed bonnet actually has to bulge to make room for the intercooler air intakes.

I have heard of a guy that put the MS6 AWD on it but again, being different platforms and the 3 not made for AWD he had to make a completely new floor and either cut the driveshaft or have a new one made, either driving the cost significantly or limiting the performance that can be put through before it breaks, also you would need to reprogram all the electronics, not for performance but just for it all to work.

This to a FWD hatch that has a fantastic LSD, a very under-tuned engine (a version of which is on the new RS making 100 HP more) I’d say it’s stock performance surprises more than one and it can be tuned for a little more and with it it can match the performance of the 5 cylinder Focus RS and a bit more all in a car that looks 99% the same as a very regular hatch from 10 years ago, if you get it in black literally nobody notices it’s anything other than a regular 3.

Garrett Davis > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/24/2016 at 09:10

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We have to remember that we live in a little car guy bubble. Most people wouldn’t even give the car a second thought, let alone look at the badge AND think about what the brand’s number naming scheme means AND have a frame of reference for 430 being a high number for that model AND know or even consider the fact that the number might correlate to the displacement of the engine AND know that a 4.3l engine would probably be powerful. That’s definitely a stretch.

If I were to ask a few of the girls I work with (and I even work in the aftermarket automotive industry) what that badge meant or if they thought it would be a fast car, I guarantee they would have no idea, and not care in the slightest.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/24/2016 at 09:24

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I think what he’s saying is that there’s different levels of advertising performance and different levels of sleeper. Having a Mazda with a little spoiler and a slightly lowered ride hight is not some dead giveaway like having a bright red Ferrari. A car does not need to be made to look as cheap and normal as humanely possible to be a sleeper. It just has to look slower than it is. And a Mazda hatch does not suddenly look as fast as a Camaro because it’s got a wing. Once again, it’s a spectrum. The car you are describing is more of a sleeper than a stock MS3, but that doesn’t automatically make the stock 3 not a sleeper.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary 05/24/2016 at 11:10

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The IS300 created buzz not because of how fast is was in a straight line. The buzz was about it being a direct attempt to take on the BMW 3 series... In terms of size, being sporty with luxury and using RWD in a smaller car.

therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/24/2016 at 14:19

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All I remember about the article I read was the insinuation that if your typical Lexus driver were to get into an is300 and drive it like their other Lexus, their old poodle would be plastered against the back window. I've never heard a person say a Lexus or infinity is fast. Acura, maybe, but not a Lexus or infinity - they're cars for old people who want a comfy, dependable ride. The new ildsmobile

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > therotaryisdeadlonglivetherotary 05/24/2016 at 15:18

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Well I’ve never heard anyone say a Lexus or Infinity was slow or low performance... unless it was a hybrid Lexus CT. Though Lexus has always been more about putting a smooth ride ahead of handling. The radical change with the IS300 was Lexus made a car that put handling first and a smooth ride 2nd.

Read up on the the development of Lexus LS400 and the brand:

http://ateupwithmotor.com/model-historie…

And this is what they were saying about the original IS300 which came out a little over a decade after the original LS400:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2001-l…

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-c…

I recall being at the Toronto Auto show in 1990 or 1991. I sat in these 1st gen cars when they were new.

And I clearly recall them being referred to challengers to BMW and Mercedes.

I also recall that NOBODY was referring to them as cars for old people or that they were like Oldsmobiles.

The Opponaut formerly known as MattP123 > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 05/24/2016 at 21:07

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In college, a friend of mine had a supercharged LSS. we definitely caught some people off guard. Too bad he drove it rough pretty much all the time. Would have been a fun car to tune.

Kristosh > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 06/12/2018 at 22:15

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Ford Flex Ecoboost.

0-60 sub 6 seconds. AWD. Can get 12's in the 1/4 with a mild tune.