EPA cheating pool: Who is next?

"Ash78, voting early and often" (ash78)
09/22/2015 at 09:36 • Filed to: None

As I was explaining the whole VW situation to a coworker this morning, I made the quip that “VW is just the Barry Bonds of this scandal. They screwed up, but there’s no way they’re alone.” Whenever regulations are confusing, complex, or contradictory and the incentive to cheat is very high, cheating will almost inevitably occur.

So who is the next to be exposed?

Will the EPA find out or do you think the company will come clean on their own?

DISCUSSION (43)

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > Ash78, voting early and often
09/22/2015 at 09:38

Audi will be next, then Skoda

Ash78, voting early and often > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman
09/22/2015 at 09:40

LMAO...touché

I’m going with Hyundai or maybe Ford.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Ash78, voting early and often
09/22/2015 at 09:40

GM.

duurtlang > Ash78, voting early and often
09/22/2015 at 09:45

As this seems to be diesel-specific, the US hardly gets any diesel cars and EU diesel regulations are nowadays similar to the US I’m going to guess it’s going to be true for a large amount of manufacturers. Maybe everyone producing diesels without urea injection. Which is everyone, period, excluding the boutique manufacturers. VW is just the tip of the iceberg.

Wacko > Ash78, voting early and often
09/22/2015 at 09:50

I say ford, something about the EcoBoost.

nermal > Ash78, voting early and often
09/22/2015 at 09:53

I think that all of them “cheat” on the fuel economy tests. Especially on models with a large variety of options, that only test one model. For example, a pickup truck - you can get an F150 4x4 with a bazillion different options, including 3 different axle ratios, but they will all have the same EPA mileage rating. Ford certainly sends the most efficient configuration to the test, and probably puts some extra sauce in the engine / transmission programming to push the numbers up a bit more.

Honestly it wouldn’t be surprising at all if it was found out that more manufacturers did the same thing. It’s safe to assume that all of the CEOs have at least sent an inquiry down to see exactly what extent their respective company has done it.

BorkBorkBjork > Ash78, voting early and often
09/22/2015 at 09:55

Dodge/RAM bragged about their diesels being the only ones that didn’t need DEF. That would be some poetic justice if they got busted for cheating.

Patrick Nichols > Ash78, voting early and often
09/22/2015 at 09:56

I’ll say BMW but they will probably issue an unrelated recall and do a reflash before anyone notices

Cé hé sin > Patrick Nichols
09/22/2015 at 09:58

I’d say not. One of the three cars tested by the University of whatever was an X5. It showed no signs of cheating going on.

DoYouEvenShift > BorkBorkBjork
09/22/2015 at 10:04

I think they switched over in the last couple model years. Could be wrong though.

BigBlock440 > BorkBorkBjork
09/22/2015 at 10:11

They use DEF now, their fuel mileage took too much of a hit without it.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Ash78, voting early and often
09/22/2015 at 10:11

I think everyone’s cheating somewhere, but EPAs testing is stupid so I don’t know. I’m gonna guess Ford.

BigBlock440 > DoYouEvenShift
09/22/2015 at 10:11

They do use DEF now

AndyG_UK > Ash78, voting early and often
09/22/2015 at 10:14

In the US I don’t really expect anyone else, don’t all the other manufactures diesel cars use Adblue in the States? In Europe\rest of world, I will be surprised if most of, if not all of them have been up to this trick. From what I have seen getting a diesel engine to pass the newest and upcoming NOX tests for Europe is pretty much impossible without Adblue (without performance and emissions taking a huge hit), I think VAG is just going to be the tip of the iceberg!

Milky > BorkBorkBjork
09/22/2015 at 10:23

IIRC that was on the big Cummins motors, I’d wager they got it right being an engine supplier for large fleet trucks.

crowmolly > Ash78, voting early and often
09/22/2015 at 10:24

Ford.

I have no firsthand knowledge, but hearing about Ecoboost’s real-life economy shortcomings is pretty common.

Patrick Nichols > Cé hé sin
09/22/2015 at 10:27

Yes but many have already had recalls and the 06-13 models 3.0L diesel gained 60 hp over the previous gen though probably due to the turbos

B/Xmrrmvr > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman
09/22/2015 at 10:29

The EPA has already listed the A3 as an affected vehicle.

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > B/Xmrrmvr
09/22/2015 at 10:31

you missed the joke, I think.

GTFAC

spanfucker retire bitch > Ash78, voting early and often
09/22/2015 at 10:38

I think it depends on if we’re talking about emissions cheating or fuel economy cheating.

B/Xmrrmvr > Ash78, voting early and often
09/22/2015 at 10:46

Well Hyundai doesn’t even sell diesel for non-commercial vehicles in the US so that’s not happening (unless you’re talking about their commercial trucks). I could see some Truck-Bro or Opponaut testing their diesel Ford though and blowing that one wide open.

B/Xmrrmvr > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman
09/22/2015 at 10:51

That they’re part of VAG? Too circlejerky for me. I’ll see myself out.

Ash78, voting early and often > B/Xmrrmvr
09/22/2015 at 10:54

I’m not talking purely diesels here — this whole debacle will also add scrutiny to all emission and mpg testing across the board.

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > B/Xmrrmvr
09/22/2015 at 10:55

yup! Don’t go! Stay around and have some cookies and toothpaste

Future next gen S2000 owner > Ash78, voting early and often
09/22/2015 at 11:01

iSureWilll > B/Xmrrmvr
09/22/2015 at 11:03

Have they listed any Se a ts?

B/Xmrrmvr > iSureWilll
09/22/2015 at 11:04

We don’t have Seats in the US

iSureWilll > B/Xmrrmvr
09/22/2015 at 11:05

I am in New Jersey. We also don’t have Skodas.

B/Xmrrmvr > iSureWilll
09/22/2015 at 11:16

But... I never said Skoda.... that was Snap :(

Sorry? Here’s the list if you can’t click on the link I posted:

Affected diesel models include:

Jetta (MY 2009 – 2015)

Jetta Sportwagen (MY 2009-2014)

Beetle (MY 2012 – 2015)

Beetle Convertible (MY 2012-2015)

Audi A3 (MY 2010 – 2015)

Golf (MY 2010 – 2015)

Golf Sportwagen (MY 2015)

Passat (MY 2012-2015)

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > crowmolly
09/22/2015 at 11:18

But doesn’t everybody know that onboost a turbo’d engine uses a lot of fuel? I have no doubts at all that they have tuned boost to just be off while doing mileage testing, but all manufactures do this.

RutRut > Ash78, voting early and often
09/22/2015 at 11:19

Voting for GM. Also, not diesel specific so I will say the next one discovered will be non-diesel. People cheat things all the time to get through different tests so I’m not too shocked.

crowmolly > Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again.
09/22/2015 at 11:20

I think a lot of people tend to forget that making power means burning more mixture. Be it a larger engine or forced induction.

wiffleballtony > Ash78, voting early and often
09/22/2015 at 11:31

On fuel economy everyone is cheating. On emissions, probably any of the diesel truck makers.

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > crowmolly
09/22/2015 at 11:39

Haha I remember I had an argument on the FP with someone who was convinced we should be able to get far more power while burning less fuel in all cars by adding a turbo. He just couldn’t understand that the turbo essentially nothing to add efficiency, it just adds drivability to frugal N/A engines.

crowmolly > Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again.
09/22/2015 at 11:53

Yeah, I always saw it as “burning fuel EXACTLY when you want it and nowhere else”.

BloodlessWeevil > B/Xmrrmvr
09/22/2015 at 13:02

This regulation is not diesel specific.

B/Xmrrmvr > BloodlessWeevil
09/22/2015 at 13:35

Which regulation? Do you mean that diesel and gas engines are subject to identical emissions standards?

If you mean cheat devices/software, I assumed that went without saying.

I hadn’t considered the idea that manufacturers could be doing the same thing for gas engines since they produce less emissions, but I guess that to think that would never happen is somewhat naive.

BloodlessWeevil > B/Xmrrmvr
09/22/2015 at 13:46

But you said Hyundai would not have the problem because they do not sell diesel passenger vehicles in the US.

B/Xmrrmvr > BloodlessWeevil
09/22/2015 at 14:12

“I hadn’t considered the idea that manufacturers could be doing the same thing for gas engines since they produce less emissions, but I guess that to think that would never happen is somewhat naive.”

It’s my understanding that gas engines emit considerably less pollutants than diesel engines due to catalytic converters since the 1970s. I hadn’t considered that it emissions for gas engines might be an issue to automakers like diesel engines would be (especially diesel engines not using a urea-injection system) where they might utilize a cheat device.

If anything, the “cheat” issue with gas engines that I’ve seen so far is the misrepresentation of fuel economy numbers (e.g. Ford and Hyundai), which I know are achieved by tuning their vehicles to perform well under the EPA’s specific test but that’s not through the use of a cheat device since it doesn’t “defeat/deactivate” anything. Apparently you’re from the industry, so correct me if I’m wrong.

I’m assuming you mean regulations regarding cheat devices, since you never told me which regulation.

B/Xmrrmvr > BloodlessWeevil
09/22/2015 at 14:40

From your experience, what do you think the chances are that automakers are using cheat devices for gas engines?

BloodlessWeevil > B/Xmrrmvr
09/22/2015 at 14:54

Sorry, yes. I was referring to the defeat device regulations. I pulled this out of a letter to truck makers from the EPA in 1998. It is the EPA’s interpretation of legislation, but it was upheld in court.

“Defeat Device. A Defeat Device is an AECD [Auxiliary Emission Control Device] that reduces the effectiveness of the emission control system under conditions which may reasonably be expected to be encountered in normal vehicle operation and use, unless (1) such conditions are substantially included in the Federal emission test procedure; (2) the need for the AECD is justified in terms of protecting the vehicle or engine against damage or accident; or (3) the AECD does not go beyond the requirements of engine starting.”

Source: http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/dear…

Gas engines are covered under the same law. I cannot cite specific examples off the top of my head, but you are correct to assume that it applies to gas engines as well. That they can run cleaner has just pushed lawmakers to tighten standards on them even more.

The misrepresentation of fuel economy numbers is a different animal. The EPA and CARB allow manufacturers to certify one, worst case, model in a drivetrain family rather than every one. Ford and Hyundai got in trouble because they used their best case vehicles in certain drivetrain families to get more favorable mileage numbers.

BloodlessWeevil > B/Xmrrmvr
09/22/2015 at 15:12

Where I work right now does not, and we struggle constantly to meet emissions standards. I would be very surprised if no one is doing it with gas engines.

pip bip - choose Corrour > Ash78, voting early and often
09/23/2015 at 08:29

either BMW or Mercedes-Benz.