Question on aftermarket ECU flashing for the VW TDI motors....

"themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles" (themanwithsauce) 09/21/2015 at 15:15 • Filed to: None

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Hypothetical question - I own a TDI sportwagon. I don’t want VW to reflash my ECU. I voluntarily void my powertrain warranty by flashing something like an APR tune. Is it possible for VW to “flash over” it? Is there a way to lock the ECU down?

For the record, I think if you tried doing this, VW would insist you buy a new ECU with updated tuning, but they’d have to give you the old parts back if you asked. In either case, you can keep your flashed ECU. Jetta TDI cup edition for your time because I like it more than the sportwagon

Ash78, voting early and often > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 09/21/2015 at 15:18

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IIRC, ever since APR switched to the “flash” method (vs the old soldered chips) they provided a lifetime policy to replace the tune if it ever gets re-done by the dealer. I hope that’s still the case.

Hope you get to have your sooty cake and eat it, too!

bob and john > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 09/21/2015 at 15:20

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I’ma ctuial;ly kinda hoping the ‘fix’ will be a tune that totally neuters the power.

why you might ask?

Ive been trying to get my dad to get the APR stage 1 tune. he keeps saying taht ‘this is enoguh’ (2010 A3 TDI for the record)

if they really drop it to under 120hp, then is will def convince him to get more power, and I will be able to talk him into a 175hp/280lbft tune

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Ash78, voting early and often 09/21/2015 at 15:20

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Cool! And the hypothetical part was me owning a TDI. I don’t but I have friends and family who do.

Cé hé sin > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 09/21/2015 at 15:22

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Hypothetical answer: car is recalled, ECU is de cheated, newly clean chip is flashed again back to where you had it. Everyone’s happy.

RallyWrench > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 09/21/2015 at 15:23

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Any factory flash will overwrite the aftermarket tune. You then have to get authorization from the tune provider to reflash at no charge, after providing them with a log file of your ECU proving it had their flash. No factory ECU, to my knowledge, is ”untuneable.” Nissan said the GTR couldn’t be tuned, and look where we are now. This new situation with VW will definitely throw a wrench in the aftermarket tuners’ plans with the newer cars, as they’ll have to rewrite their code to accommodate the new factory parameters, and perhaps offer an updated flash to existing customers. I have a customer scheduled for a Mk7 TDI Revo flash tomorrow, and have a call into Revo to clarify whether I should even proceed with it.

jariten1781 > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 09/21/2015 at 15:25

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This is exactly what I told my friend to do if they come out with a neuter flash. Just APR it right afterwards.

Now, the real question is whether this will increase scrutiny on companies who do after market tunes. VERY possible they’ll be collateral damage.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > RallyWrench 09/21/2015 at 15:26

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So APR and the like have no lockdown preventing VW from overriding their tunes? That’s what I was wondering about. ANd yeah, if VW tries to lock it down then old ECUs will be used until the new ones can be unlocked anyways.

RallyWrench > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 09/21/2015 at 15:29

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Yep. In fact, if I’m not mistaken they legally cannot prevent overwriting with factory software. Whenever a Revo customer of mine has a dealer software update done, I have to jump through a bunch of hoops to get Revo to credit me for the reflash.

wiffleballtony > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 09/21/2015 at 15:34

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I don’t have a VW but I do have a car with a tune. In my experience whenever the car goes in to the dealer they may over write what’s on the ECU. As such before I take my car in, I return it to stock, then over write the factory tune when I get it back. No voided warranty. The caveat being that I have a programmer and the tune files.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > wiffleballtony 09/21/2015 at 15:36

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Same, I have a fiesta st with the Cobb tuning. The only visible mod is the rear motor mount but considering that is a repair done to correct terrible design, they’d have to fight awfully hard to say that that voids the warranty.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > jariten1781 09/21/2015 at 15:37

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I wonder though......with aftermarket tunes the rule was always “you are responsible for passing emissions”. Do VW tunes use that part of the code too?

and 100 more > RallyWrench 09/21/2015 at 15:37

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I dunno, ChryCo went to great efforts to keep their shitbox 4-cyl ECUs locked up tight.

Sadly there isn’t much market for cracking them either.

Future next gen S2000 owner > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 09/21/2015 at 15:37

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You could also just not get your hypothetical TDI reflashed when the recall shows up in the mail.

wiffleballtony > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 09/21/2015 at 15:37

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I do have a CAI and axle backs but that’s basically nothing.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Future next gen S2000 owner 09/21/2015 at 15:43

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If you live in a state with emissions or go to the dealer for any reason, then your plan fails.

RallyWrench > and 100 more 09/21/2015 at 15:46

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True, but I don’t think anybody tried too hard on those.

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 09/21/2015 at 15:46

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You should call APR. I’m sure you’re not the only one to wonder this and they should be having some sort of answer already for your situation (I imagine)

I’m curious also for an answer. Please report back to us

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman 09/21/2015 at 15:49

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The hypothetical part was me owning a VW TDI

Future next gen S2000 owner > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 09/21/2015 at 15:52

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Lol, wut. I have a tune on my Mustang. I go to the dealer occasionally, a dealer won’t reflash your tune. I also pass emissions every other year.

deekster_caddy > wiffleballtony 09/21/2015 at 16:05

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It’s one thing I really like about having my own tuner. And “Compare files” is a wonderful thing.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Future next gen S2000 owner 09/21/2015 at 16:08

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Yes, your mustang doesn’t matter because the EPA doesn’t have your car on wanted posters. You think these cars won’t be checked for the recall when they roll up for emissions? The TDI cars are going to be made examples of. So as an owner you will HAVE to do something and merely ignoring the issue in an emissions checking state won’t happen.

jariten1781 > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 09/21/2015 at 16:31

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There has been discussion since emissions became a thing whether aftermarket tunes counted as ‘defeat devices’. When everyone who ran emissions ran tail pipe sniffers it wasn’t a big deal...you either passed or you didn’t. Now that the vast majority of states run OBDII checks only tunes could be spewing all sorts of gunk as long as the O2 sensors/TPS/Etc. all stay in their tabled parameters. Plus, even if they do meet emissions, there’s the straight up ‘fact’ that they are not in the configured in the manner that they were tested by the EPA. That’s really hard to get around.

The laws are written so that ‘emissions equipment’ has to be in the configuration as it was when it left the factory.

So, currently states have taken the tack that emissions equipment = just hardware. If you have an ECU, CAT, O2 sensors, charcoal filter, sealed fuel tank etc. and you stay in a condition that the CEL doesn’t flip you’re good regardless of what the software does. Enviro-folks have been arguing for a while that ‘emissions equipment’ = hardware AND software. With the fact that VW used pure software to defeat emissions test you can bet your bottom dollar that they’ll be looking into whether the definition needs to change to the latter one. Potential fallout could be declaring the entire tuning industry illegal. Probably wouldn’t go that far, SEMA has a decent lobbying arm, but it very well could push it to the point where anyone with it installed can be charged with a violation and denied registration making it only legal to run a tune off-road.

TheOnelectronic > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 09/21/2015 at 16:52

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“Well this part is more rigid and it leads to more vibration which is what caused your oil lines to come loose so we won’t pay for your new engine”

Is what they would probably say.

uofime-2 > RallyWrench 09/21/2015 at 16:57

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I had a thought, do you think that aftermarket tuners would have noticed this “testing mode” programming in the ECU or could that have been burred deeper in the calibration than most of them look?

Future next gen S2000 owner > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 09/21/2015 at 17:23

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Do you think the guy getting paid $12/hr to run 150 emissions tests a day is going to care about checking for specific cars?

and 100 more > RallyWrench 09/21/2015 at 18:00

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Yeah, exactly. Nobody really wanted to put a tune on a 4-cyl Avenger or Jeep Patriot.

Source: own a Patriot, would like a tune.

RallyWrench > uofime-2 09/21/2015 at 18:31

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Good question. I doubt they’d have taken notice if it’s not a mode entered in normal driving or testing.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Future next gen S2000 owner 09/21/2015 at 23:53

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Yes, when they put up signs telling them to specifically look for a certain type of car. If mcdonalds worker can understand that I don’t want onions on a burger, I hope the emissions tech knows enough to know that a VW diesel from recent model years is under extra scrutiny.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > TheOnelectronic 09/21/2015 at 23:55

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“Well on the focus STs, you admitted that a soft RMR causes the engine to buck and shake excessively. Not only does this result in poor trasmission of power to the ground, it also weakens the other mounts. So tell me more about why it isn’t the same here.”

TheOnelectronic > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 09/22/2015 at 01:19

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Ah but see your mistake is using logic.