The Cadillac and the Camrys

Kinja'd!!! "HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch)
09/11/2015 at 18:30 • Filed to: Rant

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So I was talking with someone about German Luxury sedans vs Cadillac and the thought occurred to me that all of these articles contain the exact same responses:

Cadillac is so far behind the Germans

Cadillac isn’t on the same level as my BMW

No matter what they say its not as nice as MY AUDI

Sigh. This despite the cars being genuinely very good and in many cases superior in reviews to their precious Teutonic metal.

Now I’m not actually a Cadillac apologist, or even fanboy, I don’t really ever see myself owning a GM made passenger vehicle for the foreseeable future (sports cars as the possible exception) but why is it that Cadillac can’t make a dent in the German trifecta? I’m going to tell you: Because German Saloons are the Camry of the well to do.

What I mean by this is that the Camry, as you well know, sells very well and has a loyal following and the cars that are trying to compete against are automatically disadvantaged by the fact that its the best seller. Camry buyers, I suspect, don’t even cross shop other makes (except maybe an accord) because “I’ve always had a Camry and its done me right”. Yeah, fair point that the Camry has earned its rep for being trouble free but the point is that no one even considers that there could be better cars out there, because they aren’t a Camry.

Its the same story with these German sedan stalwarts, and I should make it clear I’m not talking about passionate driving enthusiast or the used market, where you can’t even get them to look at something besides their preferred German brand. “Mercedes has always been the best made car on the road period.” oh yeah? is that why they are ranked SO high on everyones reliability survey? “A BMW will always be a better driving car than some retirees floatmobile” um hmm, just like all the reviews have shown... “The Audi QX456 is just such a more refined experience than...”

Bull.

Justify it all you want, you just don’t want to admit you are afraid you’ll try something else...and like it.

This is just a rant of mine that came off my fingers here, I’ve got nothing here but my crazy opinion and so im eager to hear other peoples opinions as to why Cadillac can’t make a dent.

Dumb names?

Silly pricing?

lack of ducks?

Lets here it.


DISCUSSION (62)


Kinja'd!!! jkm7680 > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 18:34

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I just flat out don’t like most of Cadillac, I hate how they drive and think most of their cars are ugly.


Kinja'd!!! For Sweden > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 18:35

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Needs more martins


Kinja'd!!! CB > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 18:35

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Maybe it’s the same problem as the minivan and the station wagon: our older generations drove them, so they’re not cool.


Kinja'd!!! sm70- why not Duesenberg? > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 18:37

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Cadillac makes cars right now that are every bit as good as the Germans, better maybe in some ways. If I had to choose, I would drive all the options and then choose which one I like. The only thing for me, personally, is that if all the cars were dead equal, the tie breaker would be that I’d rather have a star, set of rings, or “propellor” on the front of my car than the Caddy crest. At least for now. Once they’ve been doing this well for a little long, hat may change.

No, it doesn’t make a lot of sense.


Kinja'd!!! RallyWrench > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 18:37

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These same people also fail to realize that the Tesla Model S has rendered all of the big Germans obsolete. Every time I bring up the monstrous costs of keeping cars like the S class and 7 series on the road, I get shouted down by brand apologists. These people drank the Kool-Aid long ago, and don’t even consider anything else. The cars are banking on the reputation of their forebears, cars good for 300k miles or more with nothing more than regular maintenance. But don’t take my word for it, I just work on the damn things.


Kinja'd!!! Logansteno: Bought a VW? > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 18:38

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Because from 1980ish to the mid 2000s they generally built boats with subpar motors and meh interiors. Meanwhile Germany was making exciting sports sedans and uber luxury cars that while sometimes not reliable, were incredibly well put together and had powerful motors for the most part. People still have that ideology of Cadillac even though they’re building cars just as good as Germany now. As much as people don't say they don't care about a badge and the reputation behind it, they do.


Kinja'd!!! Leon711 > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 18:40

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The last Cadillac sold here was a BLS. Awful car and the name holds no history in the UK. When Johan de Nysschen told me in the Jalopnik ama they would be coming back I thought good luck because infiniti have tried and failed in the UK market, they just plod along with low sales.


Kinja'd!!! HammerheadFistpunch > jkm7680
09/11/2015 at 18:40

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Its funny, I always pegged you as a drive American kind of person...


Kinja'd!!! Cé hé sin > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 18:41

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I live in a Cadillac free zone, which is probably partly due to a folk memory of things like this

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Kinja'd!!! HammerheadFistpunch > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
09/11/2015 at 18:41

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yeah, but thats literally 20 years ago...i mean a lot has changed in 20 years.


Kinja'd!!! sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
09/11/2015 at 18:41

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If you’ll see my comment above, some of us will actually freely admit it.


Kinja'd!!! CRider > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 18:42

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B...b....b...bbut Government Motors!


Kinja'd!!! Logansteno: Bought a VW? > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 18:42

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In the eyes of the average consumer, not really. 20 years ago the Camry was actually the best car in the segment to buy. No so much anymore but here it is still leading the sales charts.


Kinja'd!!! Logansteno: Bought a VW? > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
09/11/2015 at 18:43

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Some will, a lot of others won't.


Kinja'd!!! HammerheadFistpunch > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
09/11/2015 at 18:44

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proves my point exactly, it doesn’t matter that there could be a better choice...people just stick to their guns


Kinja'd!!! sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Logansteno: Bought a VW?
09/11/2015 at 18:44

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Most won’t.


Kinja'd!!! sm70- why not Duesenberg? > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 18:44

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More like 5 years, but still, c’mon folks.


Kinja'd!!! jkm7680 > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 18:44

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Lol, even I’m rolling my eyes at that one.


Kinja'd!!! SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 18:46

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Shut up OP. YOU KNOW NOTHING!


Kinja'd!!! HammerheadFistpunch > jkm7680
09/11/2015 at 18:46

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that’s why I used the sarcasm ellipsis


Kinja'd!!! scoob > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 18:47

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Replace Cadillac with Samsung/HTC/LG/Nokia/etc and Audi/BMW/Mercedes with Apple and it still applies.

It’s all reputation and image. Yeah, Cadillac had a good rep, but that was a long time ago.


Kinja'd!!! SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 18:47

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He’s actually the newest form of “I Hate American Cars"


Kinja'd!!! HammerheadFistpunch > sm70- why not Duesenberg?
09/11/2015 at 18:47

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5 years ago was the 2011 model year...

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Cadillac might have been making some great cars by then.


Kinja'd!!! jkm7680 > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 18:47

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Oh, I use that anyways.


Kinja'd!!! PatBateman > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 18:48

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I’ve read through the responses here, and I can only boil down the the answer to one thing: Fanbois.

If Cadillac came out with a car with MORE luxury, fanbois would say that Germans are faster. More performance? Germans are more luxurious. Better feel? Germans have better quality. Better quality? Germans look nicer.

Bottom line: there will always be an excuse as to why the German cars are better to some people.


Kinja'd!!! Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 18:49

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I bet the Caddy is a great car.. but it looks like SHIT compared to a Mercedes.. or a BMW.. or an Audi. Hell, I’d rather get a Kia

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Kinja'd!!! HammerheadFistpunch > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh
09/11/2015 at 18:52

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I’m not sold on their styling either, but who am i to judge...its not like I’m a model or anything. Don’t hate me because I’m [not] beautiful. Hate me for my other qualities.


Kinja'd!!! ranwhenparked > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 18:52

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I personally don’t really care for current Cadillacs as much primarily because they’re just too small.

I mean, I am technically in management now, how am I supposed to project success in the parking lot if the secretaries are driving bigger cars? Get it together Cadillac!

Also, more chrome would be nice.


Kinja'd!!! 09GT - now boosted > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 18:54

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I’m a physician, and in our parking garage there are literally 15 black current-gen 5 series, 10 A6’s, and 10 E or S-class Mercs. It’s part of the reason I drove a CTS wagon - it was just so different (and drove equally well or better than those cars). And I never tried to get in the wrong car (something I witnessed on more than one occasion). I drive a Mustang GT as my DD now (talk about different!) but you are dead on - German sedans are the Camrys of the well-to-do.


Kinja'd!!! HammerheadFistpunch > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman
09/11/2015 at 18:54

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Who you calling “Old Popsicle” bud?!


Kinja'd!!! HammerheadFistpunch > ranwhenparked
09/11/2015 at 18:56

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tell me about it...too small too subtle.

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Kinja'd!!! RallyWrench > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 18:56

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In a roundabout way, there’s an interesting point. The Germans are now banking on a reputation forged in the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s, while Cadillac is fighting theirs, tarnished in the same period.


Kinja'd!!! Devon lost his burner, understands electric cars don't require front grilles > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh
09/11/2015 at 18:56

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I hope KIA abandons the quad foglamp thing. It’s so off-putting on an otherwise very nice car.


Kinja'd!!! Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 18:58

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Hey.. dude, your looks is why we love you :)

But really, I do think Caddy is missing out because they are years behind when it comes to design. :)


Kinja'd!!! Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > Devon lost his burner, understands electric cars don't require front grilles
09/11/2015 at 19:01

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Yeah, I agree with you. Those fogs must go. It’s a great car though.


Kinja'd!!! HammerheadFistpunch > RallyWrench
09/11/2015 at 19:01

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I wouldn’t go so far as to say the sixties and seventies were a tarnishing period For Cadillac. It’s just that they weren’t sports sedans, but that’s what Americans wanted. Now, the 80s thru the 90s I’ll give you a that one


Kinja'd!!! MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 19:02

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It’s more so because Cadillac did put out crap cars for so long that it became their reputation. It takes a long time in the auto industry to earn you’re reputation, but once it’s there, good or bad, it sticks. So as long as Cadillac keeps producing good cars, their reputation will change eventually. And as long as the Germans keep pumping out unreliable expensive to fix cars their reputation will eventually become crap too. Reputations just seem to take a long time to change in the wuto industry


Kinja'd!!! HammerheadFistpunch > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh
09/11/2015 at 19:02

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Behind? I don’t think so...Maybe to the side


Kinja'd!!! Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 19:03

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To the side implies on another level though :P But sure.. OK.


Kinja'd!!! HammerheadFistpunch > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s
09/11/2015 at 19:06

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Yes and no...It’s send most of these German Davis claim to be comparing apples to apples. So either they are and they are biased or they are...gasp...lying


Kinja'd!!! RallyWrench > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 19:09

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Not so much in the 60’s, you’re right. I would happily own a 60’s Caddy, but that’s where I think the styling just started to push into the gaudy realm. The 70’s cinched it with what amounted to a grille size contest, and the 80’s backed that up with malaise era mechanicals and build quality, while the Germans were building the finest cars in their history, tightly styled, reliable, and supremely capable without being the overcontented beasts they are now. To me, Caddy started to claw back in the 90’s with cars like the STS, which I think is a fine looking and comfortable sedan for its era, but it’s been an uphill battle.


Kinja'd!!! HammerheadFistpunch > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh
09/11/2015 at 19:10

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Well what I mean is this styling is subjective. Its like when I was dating this Ukrainian girl and she would always tell me that American music was so far behind the European music which was just dubstep. Behind not necessarily


Kinja'd!!! Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 19:12

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Ahh.. Yeah.. well.. never take fashion/styling/music advice from eastern europeans :P

But I understand :)


Kinja'd!!! El Rivinado > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 19:15

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Because they won’t admit their time is done.

Let’s be honest here, the reason German superiority rose the way it did was two-fold.

1: Consumer tastes had changed and baby boomers didn’t aspire to the cars their parents drove, hence why Cadillac and other brands got known as “old people’s cars” and why the Germans succeeded.

2: There was exclusivity but also genuine snobbish, that allowed “ze germans” to rise up.

Let’s be honest here, for what it’s worth, back in the late 60s-70s when Mercedes Benz was rising, there was no way that many people would’ve considered it back then. German luxury cars couldn’t compete with most American car buyers as far as value in price. For a lot of people, German cars were far more expensive, but they made less horsepower, weren’t as comfortable, didn’t offer the value that American luxury car makers got (some Mercedes still had crank windows when you could get Air-Con and power seats in a Mark III as standard equipment/less money), and they were weird and foreign. But, they were also built to a higher standard than most American cars, and because they were higher priced, they were seen as more “exclusive” because of it. So of course the young, new money, baby boomer generation grasped onto them, especially when the 80s rolled by and as the Germans got better, the Americans got worse. (Need I remind you about the absolutely pathetic years Cadillac had from 85-91 before the Fourth gen Seville came out?)

But, when Lexus came along just as good and cheaper, the Germans ended up moving down market, both to chase potential new customers that otherwise would’ve brought something else because they got too expensive, and also to try and encroach their territory because they were riding high and had inflated senses of egos. And that was disastrous (The 95-05 Mercedes Benz years, the bangle butted BMWs, the ML63, etc.) Meanwhile, Cadillac was taking the first baby steps towards its rebirth (Catera and Northstar woes notwithstanding), and started to really become into its own just as the Germans started to lose it more.

Let’s face it, the days of German Superiority are over. They’ve run into trying to chase every market facet imaginable, and as a result they’ve cheapened everything in the process. There are plenty of options out there, just as luxurious, that cost a lot less cheaper (I.E, you can’t abuse the leasing system), and can not only compete with them, but also whip them. But they won’t admit it, they won’t admit that you just buy these cars for the badge and that’s it, the snob value is gone.

It’s only a matter of time before everyone realizes that, and then they’ll be regarded as irrelevant, mediocre, and not worth the price.

Just like the American brands all those years ago.


Kinja'd!!! Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 19:19

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I have nothing against brand loyalty— The line is crossed when people tell you why THEIR brand is so much better than yours. It implies, though not at all subtly, that they make better financial decisions and have better taste, effectively, that they are smarter and classier than thou.


Kinja'd!!! Roundbadge > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 19:22

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Gotta be the ducks.


Kinja'd!!! Sneaky Pete > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 19:40

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I was in the market for a new car, and wanted what I’d call an “entry-level” luxury car. I really liked the looks of Audi’s A/S3 and A/S4 cars. I’d never really been in one, but had heard for years about how their interior quality was leaps and bounds better than everyone else’s. I don’t like the BMW 3 series (outside of the former M3 coupe), and don’t like many of MB’s offerings. I liked the style of Cadillac’s ATS and CTS, but figured they were American cars with crap interiors, like the a majority of GM’s lineup.

Then I sat in both Audi and Cadillac’s offerings at an auto show. Not sure if Audi’s interiors have taken a nose dive lately, but I was thoroughly unimpressed. The parallel to the Camry is more appropriate than you’d imagine. The CTS, however, is full of “soft touch” materials with a gorgeous dash that’s actually wrapped in what appears to be synthetic leather, as opposed to most auto makers’ plastic imprinted with a leather type pattern. Drove a base model CTS and was sold.

Styling is subject to personal preference, but Cadillac is making some quality cars right now. LOVE the new ATS.


Kinja'd!!! ly2v8-Brian > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 19:52

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Even then that's what people wanted.


Kinja'd!!! ly2v8-Brian > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 19:56

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Completely agree. Though I still want a 4-series. In blue because I'm not boring.


Kinja'd!!! DoYouEvenShift > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 20:02

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Fanboisms, its more expensive so its gotta be better mentality, also the “my XXX had a XXX back in XXX, so theyre all junk” idea. Also, “I have to let people know Im better than them too”

Theres more Im sure, but those always stand out.

Looks are subjective, sorry, but its that simple. I think all Porsches look like VWs, its my opinion, whatever, some people like them. But Im not wrong or right.

Performance speaks for itself plain and simple. So its hard to argue that too.


Kinja'd!!! sm70- why not Duesenberg? > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 20:20

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Ouch, now I feel old. We’ll go with ten.


Kinja'd!!! Your boy, BJR > Cé hé sin
09/11/2015 at 20:26

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That's a BAD thing?


Kinja'd!!! norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 21:10

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I prefer Jaguar over all of them but I’m mental and like the British car for some reason, maybe I just hate myself.


Kinja'd!!! JR1 > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 21:14

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Technically that isn't a Cadillac in the sense of what people think of when they think Cadillac. I think luxury sedan not SUV


Kinja'd!!! JR1 > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 21:16

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I told my parents to look at a used Cadillac (45ish) they both looked at me like an idiot and told me old people buy Cadillacs. That is Cadillacs problem. It still sticks with them even today. I hate it but it is true


Kinja'd!!! ranwhenparked > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 21:40

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That’s a truck - what do you think I am, a farmer?


Kinja'd!!! Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > HammerheadFistpunch
09/11/2015 at 22:48

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These people should read though your comment history. When you defend a GM vehicle it’s high praise.

And if Jordan had written this, I’d buy a caddy immediately.


Kinja'd!!! shop-teacher > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh
09/12/2015 at 00:14

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Gotta disagree with you on styling. I think Benzes look like shit and BMW’s look like bloated carcases of their former selves. I do like the way the Audis look, but I love the way the new CTS looks.


Kinja'd!!! duurtlang > Cé hé sin
09/12/2015 at 04:02

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That is what people think about when they think of Cadillacs here, but that’s not necessarily a bad (or good) thing. One thing they don’t think about when they think of Cadillac is 21st century . Or sporty. Or manageable while not in the open ocean. This is assuming they even recognize the brand name.


Kinja'd!!! Cé hé sin > Your boy, BJR
09/12/2015 at 04:59

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Sure is if you’re used to normal sized cars without fins on the back.


Kinja'd!!! Your boy, BJR > Cé hé sin
09/12/2015 at 09:15

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I mean, I am, but anyone who can't see how that car is awesome must feel no joy.


Kinja'd!!! Andrew T. Maness > HammerheadFistpunch
09/12/2015 at 13:20

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Careful man, The Big Drei don’t take kindly to folks who don’t drink the kool-aid.

Before anyone jumps to point out that I just bought a new BMW, I should mention that I didn’t do so because I buy into the whole Ultimate Driving Machine schtick. If I wanted a car that was purely about driving I’d have bought another WRX or an STi. But I wanted something that was fun and has a modicum of luxury, so M235i it was.

Now then, if Cadillac eventually builds a car that slots in below the ATS, something the size of a Verano or Cruze, I would 100% consider owning one because, a.) Magnetic Ride Control and b.) The amazing engines Cadillac is making. Oh and there’s also c.) AMERICA FUCK YEAH!

Frankly, if people don’t at least consider Cadillac when they’re shopping for a new luxury car, they’re sheep, foolish, blind, singleminded sheep. The only thing selling Mercedes and BMWs these days is manufactured nostalgia and perceived prestige. Audi gets by on impressive tech and selling cars to people who don’t know any better. I hope Cadillac and Jaguar dominate the crap out of the luxury market in the next decade, force the Germans into a corner where they need to step their game up.

Of course this is wishful thinking, things will never be the way they were, planned obsolescence is too profitable. Lets all do our part and buy W123s!