Random thought...

"Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street." (demon-xanth) 09/03/2015 at 13:02 • Filed to: None

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In the 90’s, GM had three different DOHC V8 engines. Now they have 0. Aside from the 4.3, all other engines are DOHC. How the hell did pushrods prevail ONLY in the V8 realm?

Berang > Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. 09/03/2015 at 13:07

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Cheapness. Why else?

Jcarr > Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. 09/03/2015 at 13:08

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SBC. If it ain’t broke...

Bytemite > Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. 09/03/2015 at 13:09

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Packaging and weight probably. The engine can sit higher up on their SUVs and the Corvette’s hood can be low.

Also, a far more likely reason is that it’s GM...they will use ancient technology and cut corners and people will still buy them because ‘Murica.

Kanaric > Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. 09/03/2015 at 13:11

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Ford KA usese pushrod i4.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > Jcarr 09/03/2015 at 13:13

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Add more features?

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. 09/03/2015 at 13:15

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OHC is an older technology, less efficient in packing, and weighs more.

Textured Soy Protein > Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. 09/03/2015 at 13:16

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Because they’ve managed to develop and refine their pushrod engines to the point that they are both cheap to produce, and give great power and mileage. A friggin giant-ass 4WD Yukon with the L86 6.2 liter V8 will do 15/17/21 city/combined/highway mpg.

SLK > Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. 09/03/2015 at 13:16

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In larger displacement applications dohc engines take up a lot more space and are heavier. Take the newer LS and LT engines vs the coyote from ford.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Bytemite 09/03/2015 at 13:17

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- the SOHC is older than the pushrod

- if it ain’t broke...

- one place GM doesn’t cut corners is with the SBC/LS/LT call it what you like. that engine consistantly punches above its weight.

Bytemite > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/03/2015 at 13:22

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-No one uses SOHC nowadays. Maybe Chrysler? But that is expected of them.

-If it ain’t broke...get left behind in the dust by the Japanese constantly innovating..then get bailed out by taxpayers

-Punches above in comparison to what? The numbers for their best version still isn’t impressive compared to the best of what Europeans and Japanese make.

vondon302 > Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. 09/03/2015 at 13:27

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V8 dohc 5.0 Look at the size of this and its only a 5 litre

Party-vi > Bytemite 09/03/2015 at 13:27

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Smallbear pointed it out as well, but OHC technology is just as old as OHV technology. It also helps that OHV engines have less rotating components and are generally cheaper to build.

vondon302 > Bytemite 09/03/2015 at 13:30

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Yeah who wants a z06 ? Idiots.

Bytemite > Party-vi 09/03/2015 at 13:34

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In a lot of cases, simplicity is good. But in this case, I’d have to argue that if you are defending OHV’s relevancy in modern engines with the fact that they have less moving parts and are cheaper to build, you’d have to make the same argument that 4-speed transmissions are still relevant and able to compete in today’s market. Same for open differentials, steering boxes, drum brakes, bias-ply tires, and so on.

Party-vi > Bytemite 09/03/2015 at 13:40

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? Considering we still have cars that come stock with rear drum brakes and steering boxes and open diffs I’d say being cheap to build is a huge part of keeping an older technology around. The Corolla still uses a 4-spd automatic as well. Actually, the Corolla uses a 4-spd automatic and drum brakes, and is still one of the most reliable best selling vehicles today.

GM has proved the OHV technology is still relevant, especially since all of their performance vehicles are using OHV engines.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Bytemite 09/03/2015 at 13:42

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- There are plenty SOHC’s still on the market, but ok, OHC in general.

- The profitable parts of GM had pushrod engines. Also, just jumping on the bandwagon is not innovation. Innovation is:

: a new idea, device, or method

: the act or process of introducing new ideas, devices, or methods

that engine has been kept competitive for the last 50 years by innovation and constant fine-tuning.

- They are cheaper and usually bigger displacement. Yet they are compact, often more powerful for their weight, and have excellent fuel economy. On top of that, consider that historically GM's V8's have been reined in quite a lot, so as to create an engine that is massively understressed and very reliable. Also consider that those extra ponies are easily and cheaply found with a little bit of aftermarket fiddling. Not quite sure how you define "not impressive".

Bytemite > Party-vi 09/03/2015 at 13:49

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Good point made and I knew that you’d bring up the Toyota’s 4 speed and drum brakes.

But would you say that the above is relevant because it is cheap to build or because Toyota can get away with it due to its brand. I would say the reason is the latter.

spanfucker retire bitch > Bytemite 09/03/2015 at 13:52

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Punches above in comparison to what? The numbers for their best version still isn’t impressive compared to the best of what Europeans and Japanese make.

Only if you’re foolish enough to believe that HP/L is a meaningful metric. The new 6.2L LT V8 smallblock from GM is one of the smallest, lightest, efficient and powerful V8s on the market. No other V8 from Europe or Japan has the kind of packaging capabilities of that LT engine has. They just don’t.

Bytemite > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/03/2015 at 13:53

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Good talk. You make a good case. I’ll just say I prefer the high-revving nature of DOHC engines rather than the more rev limited OHV. It doesn’t mean they can’t make good power though.

Party-vi > Bytemite 09/03/2015 at 13:53

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Because it’s cheap. The highest trim level Corolla uses a CVT and rear disc brakes. Plus the Nissan Versa also uses rear drums, and so did Hondas. Drum brakes are perfect for economy cars because they are usually cheap, integrate well with parking brakes, and have excellent stopping power for their size.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Bytemite 09/03/2015 at 13:54

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That’s where we’re getting off then. I prefer the thump in the back from the low end torque.

Bytemite > spanfucker retire bitch 09/03/2015 at 13:54

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Not HP/Liter exactly, but HP/fuel consumption.

Packaging is nice, but it isn’t everything.

spanfucker retire bitch > Bytemite 09/03/2015 at 13:56

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HP/fuel consumption

OK, you realize it’s still at or near the top of V8s, right? The Corvette can easily get 30MPG highway thank to its cylinder deactivation. Anyway you slice it, the LT-1 is one of the best V8s on the market and the only reason it’s made fun of is because it uses push rods.

Bytemite > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/03/2015 at 13:57

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Mm hmm. And I love the feeling of my power increasing in proportion to the engine work/noise. It’s like powering up into a super saiyan from DBZ haha. Takes episodes and much drama.

Bytemite > spanfucker retire bitch 09/03/2015 at 13:59

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It also redlines below 6k rpm...

I’ll take the Ferrari going up to 9k any day. Just a preference thing.

spanfucker retire bitch > Bytemite 09/03/2015 at 14:02

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OK, that’s fine.

But we’re not talking preferences, but technical merits, and the idea that GM is “being left behind” when in fact they are nowhere near close to having that done to them. Their engines are designed for meaty, low-end torque. Something a DOHC V8 can’t even achieve without Forced Induction.

It’s a different style, but it says nothing about technical merits or your belief that they lack them.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Bytemite 09/03/2015 at 14:03

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Well you go you-r way, I’ll go mine

Bytemite > spanfucker retire bitch 09/03/2015 at 14:06

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They do lack them. Because their reliance on low and mid-range power is due to actual physical constraints of their design, not due to choice. Sure you can prefer that sort of thing, but it takes a lot more ingenuity and technology to do what Ferrari does to their engines.

DoYouEvenShift > Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. 09/03/2015 at 14:20

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Chrysler Hemis are pushrod too, as is Viper V10. LS, Hemi and V10 engines do just fine. That goes to anyone thats been living under a rock.

Anyone that still thinks pushrod engines are junk is an idiot.

DoYouEvenShift > Bytemite 09/03/2015 at 14:21

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Examples please.

DoYouEvenShift > Bytemite 09/03/2015 at 14:24

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To each their own, I dont like to knock other peoples opinions because they dont align with mine. I give credit where it is deserved.

Im a fan of broad torque curves. I dont so much care about high rpms. I prefer to watch the speedo climb versus a tach.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Bytemite 09/03/2015 at 14:25

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That is fair enough. However, if they didn’t want those characteristics they would change the type of engine they made. It comes down to the sort of compromise the company wants.

GM went for the torque for it’s trucks, and rather than design a whole new engine for the Corvette/Camaro they fine-tune the internals, retune the electronics and make up the difference in gearing.

Ford went for a relatively low revving OHC engine, and take up the slack for its trucks AND the Mustang with gearing.

Ferrari only makes high-end supercars and GT cars. They can go all out for high-revving power.

They all take ingenuity and technology, they just have to be focussed in different areas.

DoYouEvenShift > Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. 09/03/2015 at 14:37

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Guess which one weighs less, is physically smaller, makes more power, and returns similar, if not better fuel economy.

Bytemite > DoYouEvenShift 09/03/2015 at 14:47

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NA - C7 Corvette Stingray 455 HP @ 6000 rpm.

Easy. Ferrari 458 Speciale. 597 HP @ 9000 rpm. Pfft. This makes the Corvette engine look like it belongs in a tractor. Out of only 4.5 L too.

FI - C7 Z06 650 HP @ 6400 rpm.

This one is too easy...it’s right here in our backyard. Same displacement too. Hellcat 707 hp. But since I did say Euro and Japanese... McLaren 650S. 641 HP @ 7250 rpm. Almost same power...for a 3.8 Liter engine.

Americans will never reach this level of technology. Maybe in 10 years.

norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback > Bytemite 09/03/2015 at 14:54

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Erm, Honda uses SOHC on the V6...

Bytemite > DoYouEvenShift 09/03/2015 at 14:58

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I don’t think I am knocking it, but rather comparing it to a full dedicated sports car/performance engine. The LTs are a compromise between its SUV configurations and its performance versions. They weren’t built from the ground up to deliver that top-end power that sports cars and racing cars need. But they make good power in mid-range and that is enough to satisfy American tastes just fine.

You can watch a speedo climb and have a high-revving engine, it is just a difference in delivering power, and it makes a big difference in how you feel in your seat. Ask anyone and they’ll tell you which feels more alive, the hyper-responsive engine, or the just as powerful but slower-revving engine.

Bytemite > norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback 09/03/2015 at 14:59

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Okay when I said “no one”, I don’t mean 0%. I’m talking about a big majority.

DoYouEvenShift > Bytemite 09/03/2015 at 15:26

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Haha, thats a cute argument and all, but lets look at better. Instead of comparing a 60k car to a 300k car, let look at it this way.

A ZR1, Z06, Viper and that car really have very similar performance numbers.

All very impressive cars imo. They just use different methods for the same goal.

Displacement, FI, for fat tq curves, vs small high revving with narrow power bands.

Different ways to the same outcome.

DoYouEvenShift > Bytemite 09/03/2015 at 15:31

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Its personel preference man, its that simple. I prefer blondes, but I dont think dark hair girls are ugly.

Ask me, Ive driven both, they do have very different feelings thats for sure. I like instant response and flat toque curves. If you like the peaks of high rpms, thats cool.

Bytemite > DoYouEvenShift 09/03/2015 at 15:43

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Well this discussion stemmed from GM’s use of OHV after all..so let’s just compare apples to apples.

Hellcat 6.2 L V8 Hemi vs LT4 6.2 L V8 OHV. The one with the camshaft, even though it’s single, still makes more power.

As for performance engines, you don’t want or care about flat power curves. You are keeping the engine at its peak when you are doing any sort of racing/sports driving. The flat power curve in a sports car is only useful for towing and going a bit faster from a rolling start to 1st gear’s redline. That is it. Not much use in a performance car. It is just better to have your car guzzle gas and make tons of power when you want it to, in the high RPM range, and just be civil and sip gas when you are cruising in the low RPM. The truck-like engines in the corvette and viper will guzzle gas at idle and light-footed driving.

Bytemite > DoYouEvenShift 09/03/2015 at 15:45

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But your flat torque curves and instant response...is that helping the actual race cars win races? Look at (F1, GT1) where performance really matters. And you will see which of our preference is backed up.

DoYouEvenShift > Bytemite 09/03/2015 at 15:53

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Race cars and street cars are 2 different things. Alot of race classes are displacement limited, so they rev them up. To be honest with you, I dont really keep up with motorsports. I think its really boring to watch.

But in my many years of racing on tracks amd much more on empty roads at late hours of the night. I can tell you that Ive won more races than Ive lost to other cars waiting for the powerband to kick in.

DoYouEvenShift > Bytemite 09/03/2015 at 16:48

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Some more personel experience. When one of my LS1s had just a catback. I would take it out on weekends to race. It had no problem walking 4.6 32v Mach 1 Mustangs with similar or more mods. It wasnt just a driver thing. One of my close friends had one and even me and him switching cars, I watched the Camaro taillights shrink in the drivers seat of that Mustang.

Average power and tq outran the peakier 4.6 plain and simple.

Im not sure what your getting at with the LT4 Vs Hellcat thing. But the LT4 has a 1.7 blower vs the Hellcats 2.3. So there will be some differences.