Closed F1 Cockpits

"415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°)" (415s30)
09/02/2015 at 13:25 • Filed to: None

I’m sure someone has covered this, I was just thinking about how to design an F1 car with a closed cockpit. Seems like it might have to be the way of the future, we can justify some danger but a random wheel strike or some silly incident killing a driver is preventable. I was up close looking at the Porsche LMP1 car and it was tiny, could we not design F1 cars to be like an open wheeled LMP1? They don’t have to be identical, maybe slim it down a bit to be more F1 looking, any protection like this will be a vast improvement. Side pods would have to be behind the door area for access on both sides, the air box up top is in that location for LMPs anyway. I’m sure they can make them look cool, if that’s what the fans want. What if Alonso died in the great Grojean catastrophe? It was pretty close to his head.

DISCUSSION (27)

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°)
09/02/2015 at 13:31

I liked the idea of a clear “plate”, a single piece of tough plastic with reinforcements at the ends to make sure it could withstand some force, but leave the sides open like “windows” for driver extraction.

ChooChooMotherFudger > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°)
09/02/2015 at 13:32

There have been some discussion on here and Jalop, but most of the points against were based on tradition or rather silly logic (in my opinion). But I haddn’t thought about LMP1 style doors. I wouldn’t be surprised if they could manage to get doors over top of the side pods as it is.

JD Bartlett > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°)
09/02/2015 at 13:33

Was the F1 closed cockpit thing a knee-jerk reaction to the passing of Justin Wilson, or was there ongoing talk of this before?

Forgive me, not the biggest follower of F1

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
09/02/2015 at 13:35

We have to think of aero, you roll your window down in a road car and drive even 100mph and you get issues. Right now the car is designed to have a helmet placed where it is, you add a structure and an open hole and you play havoc with aero. The aero guys will love closed cockpits, its Newey’s wet dream to get rid of that dirty spot.

ceanderson920 > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°)
09/02/2015 at 13:37

I never really thought of having it like an LMP1 style, this could work! The Audi tub that you have pictured looks like you could basically strap a front wing and wheels to it and work. With it being a closed cockpit the cars could probably even go faster then having a closed cockpit.

aberson Bresident of the FullyAssed Committe > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°)
09/02/2015 at 13:37

How about a lift up canopy with explosive bolts that detonate in the event of a roll over. I imagine it would work similar to a fighter jets cockpit

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > JD Bartlett
09/02/2015 at 13:38

Oh its been discussed many times, Massa was struck by a spring off Ruben’s car and did some serious damage breaching his helmet by his eye. So many close calls with cars spinning and another car mounting the other, usually inches from their heads, Schumi, Kimi and Alonso had pretty close encounters I can remember.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°)
09/02/2015 at 13:38

It won’t necessarily make massive issues. They would design the airflow around it. Obviously just throwing a screen on the current cars would have the effect you describe, but it wouldn’t be any worse than the open cockpit or open wheels or any of the other aerodynamically inefficient requirements of the formula. If anything, I’d still expect to see a slight drag reduction.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°)
09/02/2015 at 13:40

I really like the Newey Gran Turismo concepts. I want to see some insanity like that. Completely change the formula so that entirely new concepts need to be created.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > aberson Bresident of the FullyAssed Committe
09/02/2015 at 13:40

The FIA talked about that, in the end a fighter jet canopy is more complicated, you have a piece of a car designed to be blown off, the structure in this case would not have helped Jules much according the them, maybe more dangerous breaking the canopy.

Kinja'd!!!

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > ChooChooMotherFudger
09/02/2015 at 13:41

The tradition argument is the dumbest. I’m a huge F1 fan, and I don’t think that the draw of the series is the fact that the driver’s head is sticking out. I want to see fast cars and clever engineering. Making the cockpit safer does not fundamentally change the DNA of F1 as long as it’s still an engineering and driving challenge.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie
09/02/2015 at 13:43

I’m sure the aero guys can deal with it, I just think if we are going to do this then we might as well make it as safe as we can. I guess the crash structure of the LMP could be doorless, all of this needs to be tested. It would protect roll over, wheel strikes and head on impacts.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°)
09/02/2015 at 13:44

Sideways on dirt got it right. And the way I see it - good. We just made them innovate aerodynamics in a new way. You KNOW red bull’s aerodynamicists just gush sexual fluids out of every oriface in simultaneous full body orgasm by thinking about new ways to gain an aerodynamic edge and find another way to defenstrate mercedes engineers in the post-race pub meetup.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°)
09/02/2015 at 13:45

I think part of the idea should be to help deflect the car as well. If the hit is off to one side, that might push the car out of the way a little bit. But this would require some structure and strength and might not be doable in a realistic sense. Or rather, we might not have an intelligent standard for how much they can take.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie
09/02/2015 at 13:45

That car takes it past Human survivability, they are so fast we can’t design something to survive an impact. They would have to limit the speed. Keep the wheels open too, that concept is all closed up.

JD Bartlett > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°)
09/02/2015 at 13:46

I actually remember the Massa incident. Thank you though, I just saw news of it recently myself and was just wondering if there had been ongoing talk or if it had just sparked up again.

aberson Bresident of the FullyAssed Committe > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°)
09/02/2015 at 13:48

That makes a lot of sense.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°)
09/02/2015 at 13:50

Oh yeah, I totally agree. I’m getting really sick of watching preventable accidents kill drivers.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > JD Bartlett
09/02/2015 at 13:51

Oh it was sparked with Jules and so soon after it keeps it lit. I think situations like this picture are pretty serious.

Kinja'd!!!

And we shouldn’t forget De Villota’s testing crash which was just like Jules.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > ceanderson920
09/02/2015 at 13:55

I think so, and I don’t think it would be so different, you look at how an LMP1 uses the engine as part of the chassis just like an F1 car. The aero would be better, more downforce options I would think. Faster isn’t even a problem, we can make these cars go very very fast, they actually dumb down cars now or they would be too fast.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°)
09/02/2015 at 13:56

I’m fine with closing the wheels. As far as accident survivability goes, even half of the speed of our current cars is deadly. Jules Bianchi’s head suffered something like a 256G impact in Japan, and the speed at the point of impact was 76 mph iirc. Granted, that was an extreme case, but it’s increasingly seeming like top tier drivers are in such amazing shape that unless there’s a head injury, they end up sore at worst after even the craziest accidents.

ChooChooMotherFudger > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie
09/02/2015 at 13:58

Also people forget that if the cars (and tracks) are safer then the cars can go faster.

I would bet money on F1 going closed cockpit within 5 years.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie
09/02/2015 at 14:00

I only mention not closing the wheels up because I think the F1 community would reject it, they become just like other classes of cars when we do that. Yeah the speed at the moment is manageable most of the time if we don’t put a crane truck where a car can hit it. Look at Kubica’s crash in Canada, I was really worried he was dead when I watched that.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°)
09/02/2015 at 14:04

They also said that it would have been impossible to fix skirts to the tractors and that everything was done according to protocol even though the helicopter could no longer takeoff while the race was still green flagged... Yeah, that FIA report was a fucking joke.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°)
09/02/2015 at 14:06

I’m still amazed every time I see a photo of that crash and you can see his feet sticking out of the monocoque. Did they change the firewall rules after that? I forget.

DogonCrook > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie
09/02/2015 at 15:31

That’s kinda the thing though, getting beaned in the head in a shifter cart will kill you too. I hate slippery slope arguments but if we say we have to prevent all preventable deaths all the lower classes have to go as well. And people obviously like racing this type of car regardless of the risk. Arguing just F1 and Indy have to do it, with no outcry for the lower leagues strikes me as people’s reactionary need to feel like they are doing something, like they need to feel like they have control. 2 out of 3 deaths are in full roll cage cars on the amateur level. I’d argue the general public cannot accept racing as an acceptable risk period, and I’m not sure it’s wise to listen to them.

Personally i feel hanging on to open wheel racing while closing the cockpit is silly, just scrap both leagues and design all new cars that are smaller and faster than lmps, but with closed cockpits and wheel fairings so they don’t launch. The amateurs and semi pros will continue racing open wheel/cockpit and either the public will ignore the pinnacle of that style and people will die out of the public eye and carry on, or a new series will become popular that sticks to that formula. It’s not just the fans crying tradition, people do genuinely want to race this style of car, and there’s no stopping it really.

It’s never really popular to say, but just because you can prevent the danger, doesn’t mean you should. There is no case to be made that we should bar people from pursuing dangerous sports if they accept the risk, because there is no legal barrier we can throw up. The argument really is if you change f1 and Indy into closed cockpits is it even the same thing? I’d argue it’s not, but I also don’t care if they change it. I don’t watch either, and even if I did, if the drivers say it’s too risky then change it, it is after all the big leagues. But if you say we cannot allow open cockpit racing because it’s too dangerous, fuck that. It’s not even about tradition, it’s about people’s right to take that risk if it works for them, or even if it doesn't.

Herr Quattro - Has a 4-Motion > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°)
09/05/2015 at 17:11

If F1 decides to open up the fuel flow regulations to allow for 900-1000HP cars, and keep the same amount of downforce, then we might as well make them safer.

Do I think they should do it? Absolutely. Driver safety is key everything.

However, if they’re gonna do it, they have to make it an an actual roof, and not like a jet fighter canopy.