Attn: Steve Lehto, 4th Amendment Edition

"DipodomysDeserti" (dipodomysdeserti) 08/06/2015 at 16:48 • Filed to: None

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I have a question for Esq. Lehto or any other lawyers that may want to comment. I was pulled over today while driving my company’s box truck. It is small enough that I am not required to have a CDL in order to operate it. I was pulled over by what appeared to be two cop cars. The officers approached my car, and the first thing they asked me for were my logbooks. I told them I didn’t have one, as my vehicle is not heavy enough to require them and that I only use the truck for small in state deliveries (I’m the GM of my company and looked up all the state laws when we bought the truck). The first officer insisted I needed one, then asked for my license and registration. Both officers went back to their cars.

About thirty minutes later the second officer came back to my window, handed me back my license and registration, then gave me a piece of paper to sign. I asked him what it was, and he said it was a report showing that they had inspected my vehicle (which they hadn’t). I read the form, pictured below, which indicated I had no violation, then signed it. I asked the officer if I needed to get a logbook, and he said since I only used the truck in state I did not need one. We then wished each other good day and I continued on my drive. The officers were professional (except for not initially knowing the regulation about logbooks) and courteous. I treated them the same.

My question is don’t they need a reason to pull me over? Low tire, speeding, tail light out? Something? They gave no reason for pulling me over. Upon further research, it seems these cops are with some sort of joint DPS (state police) ADOT unit, and that they do these checks in order to make sure commercial vehicles are safe. I understand that it is ok to do this at weigh stations and border crossings since every commercial vehicle is stopped, but isn’t it a violation of the fourth amendment to randomly stop someone while they’re driving without having any reason to stop them? Keep in mind I’m not some crazy person trying to film cops or bait them into doing questionable things. I try to limit my contact with law enforcement as much as possible. This struck me as very strange.

Edited to add: I’m not asking as any sort of legal advice in order to pursue anything (I have no time for that). I just thought it represented an interesting real life scenario to discuss.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > DipodomysDeserti 08/06/2015 at 16:54

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I’m not a cop or a lawyer and I know it would have only instigated, but in my opinion you were free to go at any point. You have the right to ask why you were stopped (even though they should tell you when they stop you). Just be polite when asking why you were stopped and if you are free to go.

Party-vi > DipodomysDeserti 08/06/2015 at 16:54

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Police are allowed to be ignorant of the law when it comes to traffic stops. If they did not know specifically that your box truck does not require log books but they are under the impression that your truck does require log books they can pull you over for that reason. I believe there is precedent for this.

DogonCrook > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 08/06/2015 at 16:59

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Maybe I’m misunderstanding you, but if a cop pulls you over even for the wrong reasons or no reason at all, you are not free to go. You may have a valid complaint against them, possibly legal recourse, but you are not free to go.

DipodomysDeserti > Party-vi 08/06/2015 at 17:00

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Something has to lead them to pull me over in the first place. That would be like cops pulling you over in order to make sure you have insurance. They can’t do that. You have to do something first.

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > DogonCrook 08/06/2015 at 17:01

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Otherwise it becomes a felony. So yeah at no point during a traffic stop should you ever just leave

Admiral-cb > DipodomysDeserti 08/06/2015 at 17:03

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If that were the case, wouldn't dui checkpoints be illegal?

DipodomysDeserti > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 08/06/2015 at 17:07

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They had my license and registration, so I couldn’t go. Also, my question is whether it was legal for them to pull me over at all, not whether they had a right to keep me there. If I had just kept driving I would most definitely been arrested for failure to stop.

DogonCrook > Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero 08/06/2015 at 17:11

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Indeed, the DA may drop it for a less serious charge but they would look upon your fleeing as an entirely seperate issue, even if you prevailed in whatever legal action or complaint you had for the initial stop.

Taking it and to court is the thing to do anyways even if you do have a valid complaint. No matter what right you try and assert, nothing is going to get through to them. A judge chewing them out in front of a snickering court room and a livid DA, will. I’ve had judges throw out valid violations against me based purely on the cops behavior and that of the DA.

DipodomysDeserti > Admiral-cb 08/06/2015 at 17:17

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They were found legal per Michigan State Police v. Stitz , but random individual stops are not as far as I can tell.

That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms > DipodomysDeserti 08/06/2015 at 17:19

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I’ve always been under the impression that things work differently with commercial trucks. Like if they needed a real reason to pull you over (speeding, lights out, whatever), guys would be fudging their logbooks all the time. Basically what I’m saying is that my understanding is that checking your logbooks is a valid reason in itself to pull you over...not knowing that you don’t need logbooks is simply a mistake by the officers, but when they thought you needed one the stop was legitimate.

I guess you could have went the full on libertarian “Am I being detained?!” route and been in the right, but I think you handled it correctly.

Admiral-cb > DipodomysDeserti 08/06/2015 at 17:19

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Interesting... too often they just do what they want anyway regardless of legality.

DipodomysDeserti > Admiral-cb 08/06/2015 at 17:22

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It was very strange. It seemed like the cop didn’t know what they were doing. At least they weren’t assholes.

Ty5447 > DipodomysDeserti 08/06/2015 at 17:22

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Generally any vehicle with a GVWR of over 10,000lbs and in commercial use is considered a commercial vehicle. I drive an F550 service truck and am required to do Daily Vehicle Inspection Reports, time logs, and if I go further than 150 air miles from the yard I have to do a graph log. Most places also require company, vin, and USDOT stickers on commercial vehicles as well.

DipodomysDeserti > That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms 08/06/2015 at 17:26

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That’s what I was thinking, but I just don’t see how a commercial vehicle somehow creates a loophole around the 4th amendment, and I wasn’t able to find any court cases where it does. I could just see some guy going ape shit because he thought his rights were being violated. I’m under no illusion regarding how many real “rights” we have as citizens, so I try to keep a low profile, and will go with the flow unless someone is actually fucking me over. These guys weren’t doing that.

Admiral-cb > DipodomysDeserti 08/06/2015 at 17:35

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I would consider someone who wasted a half hour of my time an asshole, but that's just me.

DipodomysDeserti > Admiral-cb 08/06/2015 at 17:43

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They wasted it courteously at least.

DrScientist > DipodomysDeserti 08/06/2015 at 17:45

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im no lawyer... but i imagine its that the 4th amendment provides rights to people, not commercial entities. maybe. i dont know. i’ll shut up now.

DipodomysDeserti > Ty5447 08/06/2015 at 17:46

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In AZ if you’re over 10,000 lbs but under 20,000 lbs and you drive in state only, you’re considered a commercial vehicle, but all you need is the USDOT registration number and sticker. Over 20,000 lbs or if you drive out of state and you need a CDL and all that other jazz. This was confirmed to me by the officers.

DipodomysDeserti > DrScientist 08/06/2015 at 17:49

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I’m not a lawyer either, but corporations are considered people in the United States. I’m not being a smart ass or channeling Mitt Romney, they really are. I have my own LLC which I’ve used to my benefit in order to find certain loopholes in certain laws.

jariten1781 > DipodomysDeserti 08/06/2015 at 17:52

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They do need a ‘reasonable suspicion’ reason, but it’s pretty damned squishy. It’s quite possible they ran the plates (or had an auto plate scanner) that noted your truck didn’t have logs filed if your state does that. Or perhaps they’d received a bulletin that a truck matching your description was transporting illegally. Or they were couching it as random roadside commercial vehicle inspections (which are allowed but aren’t normally instituted via traffic stops).

So yeah it’s sketchy and likely if something incriminating was found and you had a lawyer who knew their stuff it’d just get thrown out, but it happens. Probably not worth doing anything about unless it becomes regular and harassing.

Shark-Attack > DipodomysDeserti 08/06/2015 at 18:26

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30 minutes is an unreasonable amount of time. Not sure if it’s the same where you are, but here they can only hold you for 15 minutes unless you are being detained.

DipodomysDeserti > Shark-Attack 08/06/2015 at 18:42

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Shit. I have a concealed weapons permit, and I was stopped for an hour once because the kid who pulled me over got nervous when I showed him my permit and informed him there was a gun in the vehicle (I’m in AZ so the he should have been used to this). He called in backup, then they patted down my girlfriend and I. He then told me he just wanted to let me know one of my headlights was dim. I was like, are you fucking kidding me? I was just glad he didn't shoot me as he got real nervous.

Shark-Attack > DipodomysDeserti 08/06/2015 at 18:53

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That’s absolutely rediculous. Generally in Oregon if you get pulled over with your ccw the police give you the utmost respect and are much more likely to let you off with a warning.

Rico > DipodomysDeserti 08/06/2015 at 19:17

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They can pull you over for any reason they deem necessary and they also don’t need to tell you. They can also arrest you for anything they want to put down on that piece of paper.

That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms > DipodomysDeserti 08/06/2015 at 19:42

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I suppose how that interacts with the 4th Amendment depends on one’s definition of ‘unreasonable’. I wouldn’t call a random stop to make sure my paperwork is in order if I’m a professional driver ‘unreasonable’.

It’s funny, I really can’t find much on it besides long haul truckers talking about it on forums, and apparently for them it isn’t unheard of to be stopped just to check log books. One guy said if you’re operating a commercial vehicle, they can ask you for log books, your license, registration, bill of lading, your physical, etc. I guess the way I’ve always seen it is that when you’re driving something like that, you’re a bigger risk than some schmuck in a Camry (even though your standard truck driver is probably a thousand times better a driver than said schmuck), so it’s in the public interest to make sure you’re not driving too many hours, not overloaded, etc etc.

Probably the other thing that plays into it is that if you’re driving commercially, they’re not infringing on you as a ‘citizen’, they’re making sure you’re following regulations as a worker in an industry. It’s a weird thing, really, and something I’ve hardly ever thought of before this conversation right here, haha.

DipodomysDeserti > That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms 08/06/2015 at 19:48

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That all makes sense. Where it's weird for me is because my truck is under a certain weight, the only regulation that applies to me is the sticker on my door, which was there. Our truck is an Isuzu box truck, so I would think someone working commercial vehicle enforcement would know none of those refs apply to it. I think the officer was new and didn't realize it.

DipodomysDeserti > Rico 08/06/2015 at 19:51

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Well, yeah, physically. But they can also be fired/sued for making unlawful arrests. They didn't write anything down, so as far as paper trail goes they just pulled me over to talk to me, which as far as so can tell is not lawful. I don't think they did it maliciously, but more out of ignorance.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > DipodomysDeserti 08/06/2015 at 19:51

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Oh yeah I know. But next time I would advise asking why you were stopped.

That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms > DipodomysDeserti 08/06/2015 at 19:51

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Yeah, if you got an experienced cop he probably would have known just from looking at it that your truck was under the weight limit. Around where I live, it’s the state police that handle that stuff, and they’re extremely well versed in the rules and regulations...but it’s a mistake I could absolutely see a new guy making.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > DogonCrook 08/06/2015 at 19:56

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I’m in no way saying to just leave. But if you’re stopped for no valid reason, technically you can leave. Will it make it worse? 99% of the time YES. Gotta pull the annoying “am I being detained?” crap before just driving off too.

samssun > DipodomysDeserti 08/06/2015 at 21:08

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Corporations aren’t “considered people”, they’re considered to be *made up of people*, just like any other organization, and those people neither gain nor lose rights by joining a group.

DipodomysDeserti > samssun 08/06/2015 at 22:54

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Yes, they're made up of people, but they're also granted the same rights as individuals. That's why you can protect certain assets through the use of a corporation. Corporations themselves are granted rights given to individuals.

TA4K > DipodomysDeserti 08/07/2015 at 01:00

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In NZ the Police do not need any reason to pull you over or stop you. Now that doesn’t mean they can pull over random cars willy-nilly but if they have any sort of suspicions about you or your car, they can pull you over anyway. I have also heard of an American journalist who was here on holiday complaining about being breath tested; her argument was that because she wasn’t acting intoxicated (only speeding) she shouldn’t have been tested. However, in NZ a police officer can make you take a breathalizer test whenever they want, for any reason. Speeding? definitely breath tested. Heavily modified car and the officer checks for legality? Breath tested. Forgot to indicate? Breath tested. I don’t see why people care that we do them all the time, if you aren’t over the limit then there is nothing to worry about. Also an officer can stop large trucks and heavily modded cars at their discretion to check for log books and certification plates. It’s just expected as part of the deal when you are driving one of those vehicles.

DipodomysDeserti > TA4K 08/07/2015 at 02:37

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In the U.S. cops are supposed to have a reason to pull you over. It can be anything though. They can literally make up a reason, but there has to be a reason. That's why this situation was weird as they didn't give me a reason. In a lot of US states you are legally required to submit to a breathalyzer if the officer thinks you're drunk, so it's funny a US journo would get upset about it in NZ. I live in a state with very few governmental regulations. As an example, any non frlon over the age of 21 can legally buy and conceal a handgun without any sort of permit. You can literally walk into a gun store, buy a handgun (takes about twenty minutes), stick in in your belt and walk out the door. This isn't some Podunk village either. This is the 5th largest city in the U.S. So, to have officers pulling people over for no reason seems a bit out of the ordinary.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > DipodomysDeserti 08/07/2015 at 08:00

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I think commercial vehicles can be subject to safety inspections or to ensure cargo loads aren’t exceeded.

Mac&Cheesus > DipodomysDeserti 03/15/2016 at 04:33

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Logical fallacy. No handgun sale in this country occurs without a three day waiting period. Unless you’re shoving a shotgun in your waistband to compensate dickless wonder