Sexual equality and racing

"and 100 more" (nth256) 05/07/2015 at 13:46 • Filed to: None

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Why are there not more women in racing?

Seriously, we all know women who live up to the unfair stereotype of “the woman driver”. Then again, for every one of those I see on there road, I’ll easily spot 3 college-age women, invariably in a newer Hyundai Elantra, tearing ass down the freeway while talking on the phone, weaving thru traffic with the greatest of ease.

Before you balk at this blatant disregard for safety, think about the talent it takes to do this - not only driver’s skill, but also that ability to quickly assess risk and push the envelope. Watching that side-by-side of Senna/Prost, you see where Senna’s advantage was - he was more willing to ride the edge of control, where Prost was more calculated. I think, given some proper technical training and that nigh-unteachable level of in-born bravado, women could easily represent in motorsport far more than they do.

I mean, obviously racing is seen as a “man’s sport” as most mainstream sports are. But aside from the Old Boy’s Club, is there any real reason we shouldn’t be seeing more women in motorsport?

For your time, Susie Wolff, who currently drives for the Williams F1 team, and has driven in Formula Renault, F3, and DTM:

R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet > and 100 more 05/07/2015 at 13:54

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Whoa, Herr Toto, your wife is rather attractive. I was actually gutted when they didn’t give Susie the drive at Melbourne this year. I was thinking that this could be the biggest game changer in Motorsports history, but alas it was not to be. I do believe that the disciplined women who are interested in Motorsports will stand a great chance of being competitive. The only thing standing in their way will be sponsors and constructors who would rather back a male driver and even if they end up teamed up, I see a Webber-Vettel, Massa-Alonso, Hamilton-Alonso where the cars are vastly different because the team largely has ulterior motives in who they want to win.

Also, the moment that a woman dies in a racing incident at the F1 or LeMans level, the coverage for that sport will disappear overnight (at least in america) because non one likes to publicize women dying.

Sam > and 100 more 05/07/2015 at 13:54

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The biggest reason, which is the reason no one seems to notice, is that most women don’t want to race.

and 100 more > Sam 05/07/2015 at 13:56

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Mind = blown. I guess if the want isnt there, they won’t show up to the track.

Good fucking point!

pauljones > and 100 more 05/07/2015 at 13:57

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I mean, obviously racing is seen as a “man’s sport” as most mainstream sports are.

You’ve answered your own question.

There are nuances that can be broken down from that assertion, but it all boils down to that. Until that attitude changes, women in racing will be few and far between. Unfortunately, many diehard fans of the biggest racing series (notably NASCAR and the NHRA) are amongst the most conservative audiences of any competitive event.

Combine that with a still extant cultural bias towards subtly steering girls away from STEM activities, or at the very least making too little effort to encourage girls to participate in STEM activities, and you get a tiny field of candidates.

pauljones > Sam 05/07/2015 at 13:59

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As often as not, it’s not because they don’t want to race; it’s because they don’t want to deal with the back-asswards attitudes, gender stereotypes, and discrimination that they are faced with in the world of automotive competition.

Short-throw Granny Shifter is 2 #blessed 2b stressed > and 100 more 05/07/2015 at 14:01

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It’s like any sport in that you have to get involved at a young age. I think because of the traditional ideas of femininity, fewer parents are getting their little girls involved in karting. It’s not like little league, where you go up to the municipal building and sign up your kid. You have to spend so many weekends and thousands of dollars just to get you kid in the door.

It’s not like there is an ability gap or anything, like there are in other professional sports. I think is more a result of the self perpetuating “guys love cars” trope.

DrScientist > and 100 more 05/07/2015 at 14:02

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...the establishment of the home base, and exaggerated sex differences in the division of labor (hunting vs. gathering), which in turn promoted innate sex differences in visual spatial vs. language skills.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1076342…

(1) Research that demonstrates that male rodents initially outperform females on maze tasks that utilize visuospatial representation will be reviewed. (2) New data which provide strong evidence for the organizational effects of gonadal steroids will be described....

...The studies described in this review suggest that gonadal steroids, probably the testosterone metabolite estradiol, cause organizational effects during perinatal development which have multiple effects on the associational-perceptual-motor biases that guide visuospatial navigation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1961837

these are only reviews (collected analyses) of multiple publications. but its what i found in about 45 seconds of pubmed searching. i’m sure there’s more detailed studies out there.

GTI Sprinks > and 100 more 05/07/2015 at 14:04

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All that follows is pure opinion.

I don’t think there is much presence of women in motorsports because typically, interest in motoring starts early. I think most people who are car enthusiasts can point to a few things from younger years that got them into whatever niche of automobiles they’re into.

That said, i think the barrier to entry even at a more appropriate age (saying early driving age) is barred. Whether that comes from the mechanic side of things or the driving experience side of things. I know only a handful of girls (and guys for that matter) currently that know how to take a wheel off their car. I know of fewer girls who are interested in something like carting or going fast in general(looking for vehicular parallels here) for the competitive driving part.

I think society did a helluva job (wrongly) ingraining many girls with this idea that car culture is something for men. This has created a culture of sexism that some men have taken to viewing women as potentially inferior in their knowledge of automobiles. It is worse when it stigmatizes females drivers as inferior. Both are outdated concepts and hopefully will start falling to the curb sooner rather than later.

In the meantime, if you want to see more females in car culture, offer a wrench, explain how to fix things (don’t man-splain), welcome them out to car club meets, events, whatever. Don’t glamorize the stereotypical car-women that show up inevitably at car shows. Don’t chalk up by poor driving to gender stereotypes (all unsafe drivers are terrible; self driving cars can’t come fast enough).

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet 05/07/2015 at 14:07

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Yeah, she should totally have had the reserve seat instead of Adrian fucking Sutil.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > and 100 more 05/07/2015 at 14:09

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I’m trying to get my niece into cars. She already chalked up my rear calipers. We’re getting there...

R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 05/07/2015 at 14:13

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....but Jennifer......lol I’m kidding

Snuze: Needs another Swede > pauljones 05/07/2015 at 14:13

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I think, going back to your above point, and Short-throw’s, it’s a bit of both. You have a culture that, at best doesn’t encourage, and at worst actively steers women away from motorsports and related things (STEM, etc.), especially during the formative years. So you get women who are interested, but A) Haven’t been karting since they were 3 years old and so lag the skills to compete in top level motorsports, and B) have gender bias working against them. So I think maybe it is true that a lot of women don’t “want” to race, but there are a number of factors contribute to the reasons why.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet 05/07/2015 at 14:15

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Oops, sorry. I meant to say Jennifer Becks’ boyfriend...

Forgetful > pauljones 05/07/2015 at 14:18

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You say that, but every event I have ever been to has been very welcoming to the women who want to get involved. Maybe it was more prevalent in the past.

I think there’s more to the idea that most women just don’t want to, than there is to the idea that a bunch of mean boys are jerks to them. Take my boss and his wife for example. They came and watched 1 autocross event and decided to get involved. She won't drive though. Doesn't want to. Just wants to be involved and ride along.

pauljones > and 100 more 05/07/2015 at 14:20

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As another subtle indicator, look again at that picture of Susie Wolff that you posted. Note the heels, the rolled-up short-shorts, the tank top with no bra underneath, the make-up, and the sexy pose.

Here’s one of the most successful and talented female racers of her time, and the emphasis is still on her as being sexy. Not on her being a driver. Not on her being knowledgeable. But on her being sexy. Talk about entirely defeating the purpose of trying to show that there are no gender barriers to stereotypes in racing. Where are the pictures of her driving her car across the finish line, or the videos of her making spectacular racing moves - like the one of Ayrton Senna, Michael Schumacher, Ken Block, Rhys Millen, etc. that are all over YouTube and appreciated by fans for the technical racing skill being shown?

Hint: They don’t really exist. Instead, there are sexy outfit posing pictures. And quite frankly, it’s not that the occasional sexy outfit posing pictures are the worst thing in the world. It’s that they are the only pictures/videos that exist. There’s comparatively little attention paid to her actual achievements, her actual technical skill, despite the fact that she has that skill in spades.

Think of her as the racing equivalent of Franklin from Peanuts: just a token character throw in as a half-assed attempt to try to be PC. She is being touted as an illustration of the fact that there are no barriers to women in racing, just as Danica Patrick was (remember her bikini shoots? Why was that ever even a thing for a race car driver?). After all, these sexy women got into it, right? They just had to want it. So if there aren’t other sexy women involved in racing, it’s because they just don’t want to be.

At least, that’s the message they are trying to send.

But at the end of the day, Susie Wolff, like Danica Patrick before her, is notably ill-used by racing as an exception that proves the rule. Sure, women can get into racing. But they have to be more than just drivers. They also have to be sexy women so as to appeal to the guys. If they succeed, it’s assumed to be because they had lots of money and support and because they had to be given help behind the scenes so that they could put on a show. If they fail, it’s assumed to be because they just weren’t tough enough to hack it with the guys. At the end of the day, it’s a lose-lose situation for most. They are held to different standards than men no matter how you look at it, and are often simply set up to fail due to the expectations placed on them as a result.

It’s easy to see why women frequently tend to have a hard time in racing.

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > Sam 05/07/2015 at 14:21

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Our own dear Stef does race though, she’s quite awesome as well.

and 100 more > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 05/07/2015 at 14:23

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“Now, i want you to color the ABS module.”

Hey, it teaches her not to be afraid or overwhelmed by the sight of all those components. Good on you!

crowmolly > and 100 more 05/07/2015 at 14:25

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1.) The sanctioning body and teams need to be OK with it. And by that I mean genuinely OK - give women an equal shot at being good, not just a token ride so the sanctioning body can say they did it. AKA the “I have a black friend” racial argument. Works well in the NHRA.

2.) Female fans need to get into it.

3.) Kill the T&A garbage. And the “y’all just got beat by a GIRL” stuff (speaking for both genders).

4.) Part of it is cultural from a young age. A lot of us men grew up with Matchbox cars, RC cars, racing video games, and the like. Constant exposure. Girls have totally different stuff. Some boys grow up wanting to be a race car driver, girls, maybe, a pop singer or something? You get my point.

random001 > pauljones 05/07/2015 at 14:27

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I don't disagree with what you're saying, PJ, but that is a nice picture.

It's tough, no doubt. Women I see at the track (not professional, mind you. SCCA amateur stuff) are usually OK drivers, but they're there more FOR the attention, not for the racing. Not to say it doesn't happen, but it's not the most common.

f86sabre > and 100 more 05/07/2015 at 14:29

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It’s a good question. In Europe there are a good number of girl cart drivers, well above averages, but they drop out at high rates around puberty. According to discussions they have had on Midweek Motorsports, for the UK anyway, the numbers fall off for all sports at that age, but the added stress of cost, really hurts them in Motorsport.

Sadly, I think Susie may be a symptom of the other problem. While she could out race anyone of us, her stats do not stand up to her peers. She has advanced to where she is partly based on her looks and being well spoken, and not being the fastest driver for the job. It keeps happening. Look at Milka Dunno. The fact that these ladies who aren’t the fastest make it to the top ranks and then struggle just paints a bad picture. Now, there are really talented lady drivers like Ana Beitriz, Ashley Freburg and Sarah Fisher and they always struggled for support. Did they deserve to be Given a chance at the top level? For those three anyway, 100%. Were they eye candy? Not really, but it shouldn’t matter at all. They are just good drivers who should be put there racing.

What is interesting is that NHRA has found some secret combo with frequent female winners and champions. That needs to copied.

In the end it shouldn’t matter if there is a male or female under the helmet. They just need to be fast and smart.

Here is a more representative picture of Susie, by the way...

and 100 more > pauljones 05/07/2015 at 14:29

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I will point out, when looking for a picture of Susie Wolff to post, easily half of images google returned were of her in her racing uniform. Admittedly, I took the low-road in my choice of image.

You still make a good point. We all tout feminine empowerment by showing a woman doing a “man thing”, but then tart her up in heels and hot pants, failling to realize that little girls see the outer appearance of the woman, and the story behind the woman gets lost entirely.

pauljones > Forgetful 05/07/2015 at 14:33

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Really? You think so?

Take another look at that picture of Susie Wolff above. Note the heels, the rolled-up short-shorts, the tank top with no bra underneath, the make-up, and the sexy pose.

Here’s one of the most successful and talented female racers of our time, and the emphasis is still on her as being sexy. Not on her being a driver. Not on her being knowledgeable. But on her being sexy. Talk about entirely defeating the purpose of trying to show that there are no gender barriers to stereotypes in racing. Where are the pictures of her driving her car across the finish line, or the videos of her making spectacular racing moves - like the one of Ayrton Senna, Michael Schumacher, Ken Block, Rhys Millen, etc. that are all over YouTube and appreciated by fans for the technical racing skill being shown?

Discrimination and bullying still very much exists; it’s just not as blatant as it used to be. You see this every day, whether it be racial, gender, or any other kind of discrimination. In the case of racing, even if they allow a woman in a race, there’s still the emphasis on her being eye-candy rather than a real competitor, regardless of her results. After all, when was the last time you saw Kimi Raikkonen, Dale Earndhardt, Jr., etc. sent out to do “sexy poses” for photo shoots?

As for your boss and his wife, that’s awesome, and more power to them. I agree with your assumption that she may have little interest in actually driving. But, then, as a guy who loves cars and has worked on SCCA pit crews, I also have little interest in actually driving. In her case, she may be into it because she wants to support her husband in a hobby and turn it into something that they can do to spend time together. And while I’m sure they are very friendly and receptive of that, that’s still a very different situation than actually wanting to be out there racing, without a husband/boyfriend/father, etc.

Shamoononon drives like a farmer > and 100 more 05/07/2015 at 14:36

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Why do the only women that do race have to make it a sex thing? Can’t they just race without posing in high heels and bikinis? I’m sure there are a lot more women racers out there, we just don’t see them because they aren’t also trying to be models.

pauljones > random001 05/07/2015 at 14:39

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Oh, as a straight guy, I completely agree that she’s pretty damn hot and that that’s a pretty damn great picture.

I’ve noticed that Amateur stuff tends to be a little different, and notably friendlier in some cases. While it’s still racing, it’s not racing that’s trying as much to appeal to mass markets and bring in profits. With less at stake in that department, Amateur racing can sometimes be more flexible and amenable to cultural shifts.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > f86sabre 05/07/2015 at 14:42

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I think she looks better that way, personally.

ceanderson920 > and 100 more 05/07/2015 at 14:43

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You should have put a picture of carmen jorda.

pauljones > and 100 more 05/07/2015 at 14:44

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I did a GIS search myself and very much confirmed your assertion. But on the other hand, the other half are of her in cute little outfits and even a few bikini shots. When was the last time you saw male drivers in such shots?

I think that at the end of the day, you nail the entire explanation to your original question quite succinctly right here:

We all tout feminine empowerment by showing a woman doing a “man thing”, but then tart her up in heels and hot pants, failling to realize that little girls see the outer appearance of the woman, and the story behind the woman gets lost entirely.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > ceanderson920 05/07/2015 at 14:46

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No. Just no.... I’m pretty sure that even I can outrace her, and it’s not because she’s a woman, it’s because she’s terrible.

pauljones > f86sabre 05/07/2015 at 14:50

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In the NHRA, it sometimes comes down to dynastic support. Take Ashley Force, for instance. She’s very successful, quite fast, and quite lovely. To top it all off, she doesn’t get quite the same shit that many other women do in other racing series. Why? Because John Force. John Force is a legendary driver with success, money, and political weight to throw around. Nobody is going to be stupid enough to give his daughter shit. Nobody.

On the other hand, put in a woman whose talent and attractiveness are the match of Ashley Force, but who doesn’t have that same level of support and watch what happens. She likely won’t get anywhere near as far.

random001 > pauljones 05/07/2015 at 14:51

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That's really a great point.

ceanderson920 > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 05/07/2015 at 14:52

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O man she is a terrible racer, I think we all can agree that the only place she should be at the track is on the grid before the race starts.

Trevor Slattery, ACTOR > and 100 more 05/07/2015 at 14:52

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Simple. On the whole (yes I am generalizing. The word exists for a reason!) more women than men look at a car as an appliance. Some like nice appliances, but they will still be appliances.

random001 > pauljones 05/07/2015 at 14:53

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It's not so much like that in racing, but look for Soccer or football stars and tell me if you don't see them all shirtless, oiled up, etc. Hell, GIS David Beckam and see how many underwear shots you see. It happens, but I think the impact of a female sports star is greater to us because we're way de-sensitized to the dudes. Just sayin.

f86sabre > pauljones 05/07/2015 at 14:55

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True, but there is also Angelle and Muldowney. They didn't have the Force name behind them.

and 100 more > DrScientist 05/07/2015 at 14:57

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Ok, yes! Thank you, this is getting toward my initial point...

I feel as though many gender-based differences have been disappearing with the help of video games and computer technology. No, I’m serious.

Anyway, think you for posting these, I’ll read up as soon as I am able.

DrJohannVegas > pauljones 05/07/2015 at 14:58

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It’s almost as if there was a system...a system which perpetuated itself...

pauljones > f86sabre 05/07/2015 at 15:01

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Two. Seriously, two .

While I won’t pretend to know any detailed history of either Angelle or Muldowney, if I were a betting man, I would bet that you’ll find one of two things: A) they were token attempts at being PC first, and drivers second and/or B) they still had significantly more support behind them than most other women in the sport can dream about.

pauljones > and 100 more 05/07/2015 at 15:09

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Bear in mind context when reading these studies. The username “DrScientist” notwithstanding, there are astoundingly few people, even in professional circles, that have any semblance to a grasp of basic terms like “statistical significance,” and the fact that just because something is “statistically significant” does not necessarily mean that it is the (or an) underlying cause. There are a great many pitfalls in many of these studies if you know what to look for; pitfalls where the data did not, in fact, tell the story the researchers were looking for, and thus they’ve tweaked the presentation of the data and the study to suit their original hypothesis as much as possible.

In fact, if you look at the first paragraph of the second example he cited, you’ll find a glaring one.

yamahog > Forgetful 05/07/2015 at 15:26

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Ha. Hahahaha.

yamahog > DrScientist 05/07/2015 at 15:28

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Evopsych? Really?

Bad science, bad!

BigBlock440 > and 100 more 05/07/2015 at 15:32

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Why aren’t there more men in ballet? Probably because they don’t want to.

pauljones > yamahog 05/07/2015 at 15:35

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Will you share a few stories about the shit you’ve gotten in your field and your experience? I’m quite certain that it will draw plenty of controversy and annoying responses, but I still think it’s important that individual stories are heard. We’ll never hear about Susie Wolff’s stories for a myriad of reasons, but that doesn’t mean yours can’t be heard.

pauljones > BigBlock440 05/07/2015 at 15:45

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Congratulations. You’ve come up with yet another example that supports one of the key underlying arguments behind the original question: gender stereotypes. Just as girls are often steered away from STEM activities at a young age, boys are just as equally steered away from activities that don’t fit the traditional male image.

There was actually a great movie about the very example that you mentioned. The movie is called Billy Elliot , and it’s an insightful look at the gender stereotypes that boys and men face as well.

Forgetful > pauljones 05/07/2015 at 15:50

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With the current climate of fairness and equality, if you’re letting those who discriminate dictate your participation, you have to take some responsibility for that. There will never be an end to bullying, sexism and racism. At some point everyone has to push past the societal restraints, what ever those may be. And if we don’t, we only have ourselves to blame. Man, woman, white, black.

Forgetful > yamahog 05/07/2015 at 16:00

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Well, I assume you’re just dismissing my post because it doesn’t match your experiences in motorsports, but coming from 6 years of competitor RC racing, 6 years of sim racing, and now a half season of Autocross, I’ve seen nothing but a welcoming atmosphere for the women who want to get involved. I’ve never once seen or heard of a woman being told she can’t, shouldn’t or isn’t capable of competing in the events I've been a part of. What I have also seen is a lot of women who just don’t want to, despite offers and opportunities and all kinds of encouragement. Why is that? I don't know.

pauljones > Forgetful 05/07/2015 at 16:07

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I see. There are only societal restraints because nobody tries to push past them. Not because such restraints might in someway be perceived as beneficial to those asserting those restraints, but merely because they are a naturally-occurring phenomena.

On the bright side, your argument here isn’t so bad that it’s not even wrong; it actually is very wrong. That being said, something tells me continued discussion with you probably won’t be particularly fruitful. Good luck.

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > and 100 more 05/07/2015 at 16:18

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Well Danica Patrick has sucked in pretty much everything she’s ever done sooo...

Forgetful > pauljones 05/07/2015 at 16:44

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Well that’s too bad. I thought we were having an reasonable discussion. I respect your opinion here, I just don’t think it tells the whole story.

What I’m saying is we’ve pushed pretty far against those restraints and all of the racing I’ve been involved in has been open and welcoming to everyone. Especially at amateur levels, clubs are happy to get every participant they can.

But, men and women are different. That proves true in all kinds of psychological and physiological science, and somewhere buried in those differences are factors that result in the gender tendencies like men experimenting higher levels of endorphins during competitive activities.

I’m sure you just want to write me off as some nut-job MRA or something, but really I would love nothing more than to see more women involved in motorsports. I just don’t think the reasons for it being the way it is is as simple and sinister as some make it out to be. Yes, sexism has limited women’s involvement, and yes that wrong. It's not the whole story and it's not the only factor at work.

DrScientist > pauljones 05/07/2015 at 16:45

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absolutely correct dr jones.

this type of developmental research makes many suggestions from its empirical results. we are notoriously susceptible to making inferences on how primate evolution and social interactions during that time may have shaped or selected for the biology underlying what we see in these results.

however, what can not be argued is that there are differences in sex-steroid exposure between the sexes, especially during critical periods of neurologic development. further, neurons, including gene transcription, differentiation and survival during the peri-natal phase can be influenced by circulating estrogens—likely through cross-talk with classic growth factor receptors and their associated signal transduction cascades.

how that specifically relates to visuo-spatial abilities and other behaviors is, as far as i know, not known definitively. clearly though, there are research groups who are exploring these points.

also, bear in mind, we can make generalizations, but biology is not binary. the developing nervous system (and gonadal steroid production) exist on spectra, in the levels of sex steroids produced, the receptivity of neurons to the signal, and in the efficiency in which those hormones can elicit a response.

vive le difference, or something. :)

DrScientist > and 100 more 05/07/2015 at 16:51

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as paul mentions below... be careful going half-cocked into a debate over the biological differences of neurodevelopment between the sexes, especially in a “females are better at this, males are better at that” type of approach.

what i wanted to point out... is that there are indeed biological differences in the developmental states of males and females. how this translates to physical or perception abilities and behaviors is clearly still under investigation.

the two reviews i cited are trying to create a “story” around what has been seen in the laboratory. successfully or not, i don’t know. i haven’t had the time to read them.

just be aware that we don’t HAVE to wave our hands around saying women “tend” to want to do this, and men “tend” to want to do that.

[now i’m going to go pray this doesn’t make its way to jezebel]

pauljones > DrScientist 05/07/2015 at 17:12

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A bow of respect to you for actually taking a moment to address the potential issues and assuage my suspicions.

My particular background was in Behavioral, Social, and Positive psychology, with elements of Cognitive psychology thrown in. Biological and Evolutionary psychology, along with Psychoanalysis, seemed too spotty for my way of thinking. Thus, I tend to be very cautious about them, though perhaps unfairly so in some circumstances. And, to be fair, I have little actual research of my own under my belt, as I ultimately wound up deciding on a very different career very quickly.

So, cheers to that, and to your research.

DrScientist > yamahog 05/07/2015 at 17:16

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its actually developmental neurobiology.

not saying the reviews cited are not bad, and as mentioned, it was about a minute of pubmed searching.

i am saying there are biological and developmental events that may underlie sex-specific behavioral differences.

yamahog > pauljones 05/08/2015 at 05:31

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I’ve touched on it in the past, but perhaps. I’d probably have to post to my own blog and share to Oppo to ward off any major annoyances.

yamahog > Shamoononon drives like a farmer 05/08/2015 at 05:40

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Idk, why do men have to make women racing a sexual thing? A good portion of the comments here are still focusing on looks, no wonder some women might want to take that opportunity for more cash and media exposure. Re: your second sentence, do you think that says more about women or the nature of the media interested promoting them?