My Prediction: ATS-V > M3

"PatBateman" (PatBateman) 04/14/2015 at 19:21 • Filed to: Cadillac

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I think the "Baby V" will eat the M3 for lunch with it's Nürburgring lap time. And before you say that these times are "bologna", I'll remind you that ze Germans have been using 'Ring times as bragging rights for years.

With more power, an 8 speed auto, Magnetic Ride Control, and underdog status, it would surprise me if BMW kept it's Small Luxury Performance Crown. Don't forget that the last generation CTS-V took the M5's golden hat a few years ago...

Come at me (with more than "Nuh uh, because I said so"), bro.

CB > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 19:23

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I just want to be able to build and price the new Vs.

Jonathan Harper > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 19:25

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CTS-V was faster than the M5. CTS-V was not better than the M5.

I think similar will happen with the ATS-V and M3.

djmt1 > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 19:25

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C63>ATS V Cos 500 Horsepower brah.

E. Julius > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 19:25

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I hope you're right.

PatBateman > CB 04/14/2015 at 19:25

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I think the sedan starts around $61,500, the coupe at $63k and change.

jkm7680 > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 19:26

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no

unclevanos (Ovaltine Jenkins) > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 19:26

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Car and Driver is still going to bend over for the roundel. I have full confidence that the Caddy will make the Bavarians cry in their sleep.

PatBateman > Jonathan Harper 04/14/2015 at 19:26

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Explain.

Brian, The Life of > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 19:28

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This is a no-brainer.

I just can't wait to see how close the GT350R gets to the 458 ... FLAT PLANE V8 FIGHT!!!

TheHondaBro > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 19:29

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ATS-V vs. M3 vs. IS-F?

Oh, hell yes.

Jonathan Harper > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 19:30

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The ATS is going to be quick, we know this. But I don't think the overall Cadillac package is as attractive as an M3. I've definitely got a bias, but I sat in an ATS-V at the auto show and while the seats were awesome, not much else on the inside of that car was awesome.

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 19:33

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You're probably right, but I'd still buy the BMW though.

I think the ATS is ugly as F&%K.

Your boy, BJR > Jonathan Harper 04/14/2015 at 19:33

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Well it's faster, more reliable, cheaper to maintain, and cheaper with better seats and no E60 era iDrive.

We get you work for 'em, but when neither car is for sale anymore....it's okay to admit the -v is better.

PS9 > Brian, The Life of 04/14/2015 at 19:33

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It's really insane just how good the new mustang is. Really. It shouldn't be doing anything as good as a Ferrari does it for $50k or so, but here we are.

Mad world...

Arben72 > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 19:34

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I'm going to wait and see but there's no way the 8 speed zf is better then the 7 speed dct. Other then that they looked pretty attractive at the autoshow.

Your boy, BJR > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 19:35

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watching my brand make the euro fans on Oppo squirm is great. It'll be '45 all over again.

Brian, The Life of > PS9 04/14/2015 at 19:36

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I was so giddy when I read about the GT350R I started feeling lightheaded. It's a good time to be alive!

Jonathan Harper > Your boy, BJR 04/14/2015 at 19:40

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I'm not trying to sell anyone! It's just my preference. I liked BMW as a brand long before I started working for them.

Complaining about the iDrive is like complaining about the new iOS software for an iPhone, the driver just hasn't taken a moment to learn it. Cadillac's user interface is no simpler.

All of that said, I do very much want to drive an ATS-V, I'm sure it's going to be a riot.

RallyWrench > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 19:40

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Conspiracy theory: Ze Germans framed the terrible GT-R crash at Flugplatz as an excuse to impose speed limits on certain sections specifically to prevent the ATS-V from beating the M3, man!

Your boy, BJR > Jonathan Harper 04/14/2015 at 19:42

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I was just talking 2nd gen CTS-v and E60 M5 here, but hey man, I'll respect your preference.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 19:42

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My issue with Nurburgring laptimes is how long the straight is.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Jonathan Harper 04/14/2015 at 19:47

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You mean those GMT400 style gauges aren't on par with the Germans?

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 19:48

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Fuck both of them.

PatBateman > Arben72 04/14/2015 at 19:52

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The eight speed is already better than the Porsche PDK. How much better do you need?

PatBateman > Jonathan Harper 04/14/2015 at 20:03

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Allow me to clarify: so it is your OPINION that the M3 is a "better" car than the ATS-V? Couldn't anyone make the argument that any car is better than another because of certain aspects that they prefer? Not trying to bust your balls, just making a point for discussion.

What quantitative facts make the M3 better if it's slower around the track than a similarly priced, same-class vehicle?

PatBateman > RallyWrench 04/14/2015 at 20:04

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I'll take it. Obvious conspiracy is obvious.

PatBateman > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 04/14/2015 at 20:09

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Figure 8 times, skid pad Gs... There are other ways to gauge the cornering ability of cars. But if we want to look at road courses, the 'Ring is tough to beat.

PatBateman > Your boy, BJR 04/14/2015 at 20:09

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AWWE YEEAAHH!!

PatBateman > TheHondaBro 04/14/2015 at 20:22

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I hate to say this, but I don't think that the IS-F could hold either car's jock strap.

TheHondaBro > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 20:24

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But the RC-F is a worthy competitor to the M4. The IS-F will have the same engine and everything, just two more doors.

PatBateman > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 04/14/2015 at 20:25

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When the ATS or M3 put a V8 in a special edition, we'll compare those.

PatBateman > unclevanos (Ovaltine Jenkins) 04/14/2015 at 20:26

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I think it'll be interesting. If the Caddy does in fact beat the Bimmer, then I'd be interested in seeing the arguments against the domestic.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 20:26

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With more power, a 6-speed manual, Magnetic Ride Control, and underdog status, it would surprise me if BMW kept it's Small Luxury Performance Crown.

Fixed it for you, the "small" cars need the manual.

PatBateman > djmt1 04/14/2015 at 20:27

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I'd also be interested to see the lap time on that monster.

PatBateman > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh 04/14/2015 at 20:28

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I think it looks different yet elegant, but that just comes down to preference. I also think that the M3 looks mighty fine as well.

PatBateman > jkm7680 04/14/2015 at 20:28

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'Cause?

jkm7680 > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 20:30

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Double parking an ATS-V wouldn't work, wearing a flatbill hat and white Oakleys wouldn't be the same and not using your blinker wouldn't be half as interesting.

PatBateman > E. Julius 04/14/2015 at 20:30

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We'll see. I'd be lying if I denied that I'm rooting for Cadillac. The ATS bumping off The King is a good thing for the future of performance cars.

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 20:32

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I kinda like the four door ATS when I see it from the side, but the coupe.. yuck, it looks like a cheap korean rip-off of a Nissan G35. But hey, that's just my opinion though :)

PatBateman > TheHondaBro 04/14/2015 at 20:33

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The RC-F has a 4.4 60 time and a 12.7 in the 1/4 mile.

Jonathan Harper > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 20:34

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Sure, anyone can make any argument they want. Yes it's my opinion, is that not what you're looking for? Quantitative facts can be regurgitated by anyone, but what it comes down to is how it really feels out in the wild.

No one knows yet so I'm just giving my opinion of what I think might happen.

PatBateman > jkm7680 04/14/2015 at 20:34

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So, you're saying I couldn't drink my zero carb monster drink in the ATS?

F*CK.

nafsucof > Your boy, BJR 04/14/2015 at 20:36

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exactly I loved watching the videos of the ctsv beat up on the m5 now it's got 640hp to the 600 of the new m5. Can't wait to watch it beat up again. Also I'm not even the biggest fan of the ctsv just like seeing underdogs ftw.

TheHondaBro > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 20:36

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That's because it's a naturally aspirated V8 where the M4 uses a twin turbo I6. From the comparison I've watched, the RC-F feels more like a race car than a road car.

BorkBorkBjork > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 20:37

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The license plate photo reminds me of a story. I was driving on North Dallas Tollway when I noticed a BMW M3 with a license plate that read "AMG LOL". Before I could even bring it up to my friend, a black E63 AMG shot by the M3 at a million miles per hour, growling heinously the whole way. Makes me smile just thinking about it, damn perfect timing.

jkm7680 > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 20:37

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No, you're not allowed to. That's reserved for the "M3 Code Book."

Volume 2, chapter 3, section 10A, line 5b. Just in case you wanted to check that for reference.

nafsucof > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 20:38

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but its handling...

PatBateman > Jonathan Harper 04/14/2015 at 20:39

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Personal preferences are one thing, and everyone obviously has a right to their own. The M5 is a well-made car that has heritage. The CTS was Cadillac's second generation introduction to fighting it. Where it counted (on the track), the 'Merican won.

Feel is one thing. The checkered flag is another. With this in mind, I suppose you're right: "better" can be a subjective term.

PatBateman > TheHondaBro 04/14/2015 at 20:40

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"Feel" is one thing. The checkered flag is another. I just wish that Lexus had built something a bit faster.

PatBateman > BorkBorkBjork 04/14/2015 at 20:42

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You see, this is why I wouldn't put that plate on an ATS-V. I'd get spanked for whatever reason by an M3 one day and never hear the end of it.

PatBateman > jkm7680 04/14/2015 at 20:43

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I think Raptors also have an exemption for that rule.

PatBateman > nafsucof 04/14/2015 at 20:44

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I'm too lazy to look up the RC-F's skid pad/figure 8 stats.

jkm7680 > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 20:46

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It really depends, but that's a whole different handbook.

PatBateman > jkm7680 04/14/2015 at 20:49

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I checked the handbook online, but it only has one picture.

jkm7680 > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 20:50

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Well, that sums it up about. That's actually a direct quotation from the handbook. Challenging your inner douche isn't hard when you really start to put your mind to it!

Your boy, BJR > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 20:55

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This should be V's new theme song

I came, I saw/I hit 'em right there in the jaw

nafsucof > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 04/14/2015 at 20:57

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right but when have c class amgs been anything but sledgehammers in China shops on a track, they can smoke the the tires all the way around but serious competitors for the m3 they have never been except for outright acceleration.

PatBateman > Your boy, BJR 04/14/2015 at 20:57

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In the jaw!

BorkBorkBjork > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 21:08

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But yes, I do agree that next-gen V's are going to be significantly more capable than just about any luxury performance car out there. As much as I love Cadillac's, though, the problem is still brand stigma. Every time someone brings up "New Cadillac", the majority of people say that German Car Company X's car will be better, even if they are unable to articulate precisely why it will be better. Most of it is simple brainwashing, American consumers think that European products are superior because of some unquantifiable "sophistication" that is apparently native only to the other side of the planet.

Another part is the "grandpa car" stigma, which is hilariously paradoxical. My Grandfather, true to form, would only drive a Cadillac his entire life. He also fought in WWII, stuck around to help execute to the Marshall plan, came home to start his own furniture company, designed seating for NASA astronauts, and flew his own airplane (a Lockheed Electra). I would say he was quite a bit more sophisticated than your typical BMW driver.

nafsucof > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 21:10

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I think it's a cool v8 they are just heavy ass cars and no matter what, they carry more momentum into every corner...

nafsucof > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 21:13

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oh yeah I had to go back and read, I don't think it's worthy either I was saying its handling sucks(comparatively speaking).

nafsucof > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 21:15

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here this is from motor trend "In terms of handling, the RC F's peak lateral grip was 0.95 g and it completed our figure-eight test in 24.7 seconds — the exact same time it takes the Dodge Challenger SRT Hellcat and one of the three Alfa Romeo 4Cs we've tested, mind you. The M4 can pull 0.98 g and run the figure eight in 24.2 seconds, the RS 5 pulls a max of 0.99 and takes 24.6 seconds, whereas the AMG 507 pulled only 0.91 g and needed 25.2 seconds."

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > nafsucof 04/14/2015 at 21:27

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Tl;DR: AMG=Fun, M3/4=Numbers

nafsucof > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 04/14/2015 at 21:48

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meh he even said ultimately it's less exciting. Exciting is fun to me and I like numbers and fun so oh well different folks different strokes. Tl;dr.

Arben72 > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 21:59

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I don't see gms numbers as true. And it sucks, drive a car with it. They said 70ms faster then pdk. If pdk shifts anywhere as fast as my m3 (and I know it's faster), the 8 speed would have to change gears in 30ms. I think gms fudging the numbers somehow. Dct destroys the 8 speed, it's not even a contest unless your talking low speed comfort.

FrankAtlanta > BorkBorkBjork 04/14/2015 at 22:14

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Re: stigma - who cares? I bought a V and love it. No shame.

Re: your grandpa - way to go!

Your boy, BJR > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh 04/14/2015 at 22:30

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aren't you also (literally) a European communist? Pretty sure your demographic was the last thing cadillac considered in, well, anything they've ever done, really.

e36Jeff now drives a ZHP > PatBateman 04/14/2015 at 23:59

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I'm reserving my thoughts on which is the better car until its actually out and can be compared, but the one big concern I have is the price of the ATS-V. based on the released option packages, you either need to add $9k or $11k(depend on if it needs the Recaro seats to match the base M3 seats) worth of options to a base price of $61,460 ATS-V to match the base options of a $63k M3. They have out-Germane'd the Germans when it comes to options on this car. HID and nav isn't even standard, and they are charging $500 for a sunroof(free add-in for an M3/4) AND they have the balls to charge you $305 to re-add standard parts that another option package removes. It makes the option lists on a BMW look generous by comparison.

PatBateman > e36Jeff now drives a ZHP 04/15/2015 at 08:20

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Yes, but Cadillac usually negotiates the walk out price. BMW... Not so much.

GUYMANDUDE > PatBateman 04/15/2015 at 09:17

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ats-v is going to be awesome. I would still go for the m2 when they decide to make it.

e36Jeff now drives a ZHP > PatBateman 04/15/2015 at 11:36

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I don't know where you've been shopping, but you can absolutely negotiate prices with a BMW dealer. My father negotiated $10k off his 7-series, and got another $1k post-sale for an issue with his door locks not working properly.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > PatBateman 04/16/2015 at 17:15

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But he's right - there's a big advantage to high horsepower cars there. Which is why a 918 can lap it a full minute faster than many other cars considered "very fast" 5-10 years ago.

A car that can do an 8:00 lap is still no slouch today...

PatBateman > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 04/16/2015 at 17:24

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Just to get a preview of possibilities, Car & Driver compared the 335i M Sport to the ATS 3.6 in 2013. The 335, with the M Sport goodies, held their Skid Pad test at .89 Gs. The ATS (without any special goodies) held at .91 Gs.

If this is indicative of how the performance level cars play out (which it might not be the case, who knows), the Bavarians might be up against a car that both corners better and has more ponies than the M. We'll see, though.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > PatBateman 04/16/2015 at 17:46

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I remember that review. The ATS beat the BMW in all things important to an enthusiast (handling, fun to drive, etc). The BMW pretty much won the comparison because it was more comfortable and had better truck space...

I wrote them a letter about it (and I'm a BMW owner!).

PatBateman > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 04/16/2015 at 17:50

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As I've said, I think that having the Cadillac beat the M3 at it's own game is a good thing for the future of performance. Wouldn't it be nice to suddenly have BMW, Audi, MB, and CADILLAC in a power/handling war?

Competition is the mother of innovation.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > PatBateman 04/16/2015 at 17:59

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Absolutely - I completely agree.

I sure hope BMW, fat from its record sales, hasn't gotten to the point that they no longer care to hold that title... The only current BMWs that really interest me are the M235i and upcoming M2 and Z4/Supra.

The i8 is interesting from a technological perspective, but I have no desire to ever own one.

PatBateman > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 04/16/2015 at 18:23

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Actually, that has worried me. If BMW decides to rest on it's laurels, will anyone step up? Arguably, Mercedes is coming in with their C63, but I've personally never met anyone who is a hardcore AMG fan.

I only hope that BMW doesn't wait until their M3 base moves to other cars (not even sure it would happen) before they start tweaking their M cars.

Deputy Kovacs > PatBateman 04/17/2015 at 00:05

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This got heated.

I think the M3 will win in terms of adjustability, and with certain journos being adamant that 'feel, and control' are the winning combination, sometimes you can't beat pure fire power, even if the M3 is packing a highly underrated motor.

I'm a german car snob, I won't deny it at all, but if theres one thing I know, it's that the CTS-V is going to be stupid fast. Lets hope for a good soundtrack to accompany it.

Deputy Kovacs > Arben72 04/17/2015 at 00:06

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Recent iterations of PDK have been pretty much flawless in every application. Sure, it's a bit rough in the 991's, but it adds some character. In the Panamera GTS it's straight up awesome.