Snowpocalypse 2015 (barely)

"Quadradeuce" (quadradeuce)
12/29/2015 at 11:24 • Filed to: None

It’s December 29th, and normally we have plenty of snow on the ground by now up here in Green Bay. Amazingly, we’re just a few short days away from 2016 and the first snow storm of the season finally showed up, dumping 12” of snow overnight. So I thought now is as good a time as any to write a little snow driving refresher, and piss on some of the generally accepted conventions around here while I’m at it.

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But forget the towel. Make sure you have some kitty litter, a small shovel, gloves, and a warm blanket (just in case you drive a Camry). Be prepared to get stuck, and unstuck, but also be ready to wait for a tow truck if the worst happens. And for God’s sake, clear the snow off your car before you head out. Especially your headlights and tail-lights.

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I know, all you need are snow tires and you can drive a C4 Corvette in the winter. True, any car can be a winter car if equiped properly AND the driver knows what they are doing. However, people tend to forget that a Corvette has a limited slip differential, which makes a HUGE difference. Put an open diff on that baby and you are going nowhere, even with snow tires.

I have been driving in Wisconsin for 14 years. I cut my driving teeth in lake effect snow. In that time, I have NEVER used snow tires. I have also never driven off the road or needed a tow truck. I have needed to get a push a couple of times, but I’ve never gotten so stuck I couldn’t get back out. My current car is the first car I have had with 4WD, and it is amazing. So amazing, guys. My tires even have 70k miles of wear on them and I am a snow warrior in 4WD. My truck also has a locker, and it’s amazing how much a difference that makes even in 2WD.

But trust me, you don’t need 4WD or even snow tires. My wife’s last car was a Fiat 500 and she never got stuck even once. It all comes down to the driver.

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First off, you need to know how much traction the roads are giving you. So immediately after getting behind the wheel, find a safe place to test your brakes and see what it takes to start sliding. Knowing that information is often the difference between a safe trip home or ending up getting familiar with your insurance agent.

Double your follow distant. Chances are the car in front of you is tailgating, so when they inevitable slam on their brakes you want to have plenty of space to stop.

Slow down. You’re going to be late for work. So is everyone else.

Avoid unplowed streets if you can. Even if it means a significant detour. If you have to drive down an unplowed street, stay in any existing tire ruts in the snow. Now is not the time to be trail blazing.

Avoid going up hills at all costs, especially if you have to stop at the top. Case in point: my baby sitter lives at the bottom of a rather steep hill. Her street was unplowed. Luckily, my commute takes me DOWN the hill to her house. But some dumbass in a Camry decided they HAD to drive up that hill, even though there are plenty of alternate routes in that neighbor hood. Guess what? That Camry was stuck, stuck, stuck.

Get out and help push someone if you can. You may need the favor returned someday. Thankfully, the Camry already had people helping it out so I kept on driving (I had a 1yr old and a 2yr old in the car too), but I would have happily hopped out and helped if they needed it. A little bit of rocking and pushing, and that Camry was free to sulk back down the hill.

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And other snow clearing equipment. Give them space to do their job.

Good luck out there and keep it between the ditches!

DISCUSSION (42)

Takuro Spirit > Quadradeuce
12/29/2015 at 11:30

We got around 8 in Grafton. I heard Milwaukee got 12. I was fine until I tried to leave my driveway, without shoveling the berm left by the city. Stupid low ass car.

Quadradeuce > Takuro Spirit
12/29/2015 at 11:32

I grew up in Milwaukee, which gets way worse snow storms than Green Bay. Lake effect snow is a while different beast. And my parents refused to buy a snow blower...

HammerheadFistpunch > Quadradeuce
12/29/2015 at 11:35

Good, sound advice. This sounds a lot like my 15 years of lake effect snow driving experience here in Utah. My wife and I were talking last night about winter tires; I bought her some winter wheels and tires for her Jetta sportwagen TDI[the nox box] and although she likes them she doesn’t think they were a necessity...and she has a point, her parents never needed them, and we haven’t HAD to have them except maybe once. That being said, once you get up to speed, I would take her car with winters and an open diff over my truck with full time 4wd snowflake all terrains and all the locking diffs any day.

There are 2 types of winter traction:

-not getting stuck

-not loosing control

My truck is aces at the first...you just can’t stop it...though its not so great at the second.

What truck? GM with Eaton G80?

Quadradeuce > HammerheadFistpunch
12/29/2015 at 11:40

2011 GMC Sierra Z71. Bought because it was the only half-ton that had a locker. That thing is amazing. I feel like Mad Max when I drive in the snow. I look forward to snow storms now.

I have no doubt that snow tires help quite a bit, but I have never felt they were NEEDED. Even when I drove crappy decades-old economy cars with bald tires I never had problems. If I can be a snow warrior in a 1990 Grand Prix, anything is possible.

Future next gen S2000 owner > Quadradeuce
12/29/2015 at 11:42

If it wasn’t for the Packers, Green Bay would be a sweet place to live.

Quadradeuce > Future next gen S2000 owner
12/29/2015 at 11:47

Must be a bears fan. But seriously, if it wasn’t for the Packers, Green Bay would be an unknown mill town (like Wausau). It’s amazing how much of an impact they have around here.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > Quadradeuce
12/29/2015 at 11:48

I’m in the Milwaukee area and though the storm itself wasn’t all that bad, the roads on the way home were some of the worst I’ve driven and I’ve lived here my whole life. I think because it was right below freezing the roads were wet and with the layer of snow on top were super slick. First time I’ve used 4wd on my truck (open diff and not weight in the bed)

HammerheadFistpunch > Quadradeuce
12/29/2015 at 11:51

I’ve said this here before and it bears repeating; the hierarchy of snow dominance is as follows.

Skill + AWD + Winter tires

Skill + Winter Tires

Skill + AWD + Good all season

AWD + Winter tires

Skill + Good all season

Winter tires

AWD + Good all season

Skill

AWD

Everyone else

Quadradeuce > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s
12/29/2015 at 11:51

Most of the main roads were plowed by the time I woke up, so it was business as usually around here even though we had 13” of snow. It helps that the local Gov’ts have plenty of cash left in their plow budgets, so plows were running all night.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > Quadradeuce
12/29/2015 at 11:57

We got 4-6” by 4pm yesterday, so rush hour was a mess. I don’t use the freeways on my commute so I don’t know how those were, but the main highways around Waukesha were horrible, pills of slush everywhere.

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > Quadradeuce
12/29/2015 at 12:10

THIS.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Quadradeuce
12/29/2015 at 12:26

Thoughs on 4wd that were tunning through my head last night:

- Damb this thing has amazing traction in snow. I forgot how amazing it was.

- Anyone who tells you that 4wd doesn’t help steering, you can call bullshit on.

- Anyone who says 4wd doesn’t help in braking is talking partially out their ass. the extra drivetrain resistance is great for coasting down, and having power to all 4 (in an auto) adds a sort of “natural ABS”. From my own personal observation. Those who clarify and say that 4wd creates an illusion of more traction than is really available, and that this becomes evident when you try to stop, are 100% correct.

- 4wd can be more dangerous than 2wd, reason 1. When you try to get a little oppo on, you have to push so much harder. In 2wd, the fun happens at much lower speed.

- 4wd can be more dangerous than 2wd, reason 2. When there’s just enough snow to mess screw up traction about 70% of the time, I’m on par with everyone else since I have to stay in 2wd to avoid drivetrain binding. However just as everyone else is getting slowed down by totally covered roads, I can run 4wd everywhere and have far more traction than they do. Which leads to me moving quite a lot faster, and refer to illusion of traction above.

- 4wd is very little help on downhill/off camber/both stretches of road.

Takuro Spirit > Quadradeuce
12/29/2015 at 12:27

Same here. On both accounts. First time I used a snow blower was when I bought a house on a corner lot.

Cursed my parents every snow day as I putt putted down the sidewalk.

OPPOsaurus WRX > Quadradeuce
12/29/2015 at 12:31

i always point out to people that awd/awd is great and it gets you going but the arder it is to get going, the harder it will be to stop, and the fancy drvietrain wont help with that (which is why you should increase following distance as you pointed out) sometimes I feel like AWD is just going to get you in more trouble.

Scott > Quadradeuce
12/29/2015 at 12:44

I grew up in MT driving an old 2wd truck, with a couple boards my dad threw in the bed for “weight”. I’ve been driving since I was 15.5... got my license late for a teen in MT back then. The best advice, spend as much time as you can in an empty icy parking lot learning to control your car. If the police give you any trouble just explain that you are practicing car control in the snow. I’ve never encountered a cop that gives someone trouble for trying to be a safe driver, but if your being a hooligan, different story.

Also periodically you need to test what conditions are like. Best when no one is behind you, you are on a straight road. Get on the brakes slowly and gently keep increasing pressure until you lock up, then get off. Realize testing how much grip you have is important, but also increases the risk while doing so, so choose a safe opportunity.

Do this a couple times as soon as safely possible, any time road conditions change, or on longer trips do it a couple times an hour. Some people advocate accelerating, my driving instructor in Germany would have a fit. With FWD it’s not as bad, but RWD cars your more likely to loose control. Besides, the idea is to know what’s available for traction in an emergency. knowing how fast you can accelerate is not really going to tell you much. The worst suggestion I heard was from our EHS guy at work who advises flooring it and swerving, left and right. He’s from SC and that was his first real winter. While you can slightly decrease your stopping distance by swerving back and forth rapidly, it is a skill you need to practice, and not something to be done when testing the limits of traction. At least not until you have a pretty good idea of what the limits of traction are. The ONLY time I would advocate accelerating to test your traction levels is if you are in a heavily congested area. It’s more dangerous, but also less likely to cause problems for the cars around you.

Despite learning to drive with very low traction, I ALWAYS put snow tires on my cars. My truck, not so much, all season tires for trucks are mud and snow tires. All season tires for cars simply mean they will come to temperature in cold weather, it does not mean they will give you better traction on snow and ice. I had this same argument with my partner, who argued that he has never needed snow tires. To me that is just like, saying I don’t wear a seat belt, because I have never needed it. Seriously you don’t NEED extra safety? Sure you don’t need it.. right up to the moment you do.

As well, in Germany you cannot drive in snow or ice with all season tires. Good luck if you can even find a tire dealer that will sell you all season tires. When I lived there you had to have snow tires on past a certain date. I understand they changed the law so that you are only required to have tires designed for those conditions. That’s much better since in NY this year I would have destroyed snow tires that would have been required under the old German law. The odd thing is for some reason it is difficult to get snow tires on a rental car. one of my scariest moments behind the wheel was in a BMW with summer tires, in mid Dec on the autobahn. Conditions so bad I actually saw a snowplow in the ditch. All seasons are designed for cold temperatures so they are fine right up until either an arctic front drops the temperature way down, or you get snow or ice.

We got our first snow here in NY as well. Coming in this morning I watch people sliding all over the road. For me in my SUV with snow tires it may as well have been raining, I had no issues, was able to drive just like I do in the rain. I could brake as hard as I normally would. I was able to drive comfortably at the speed limit. The only spot I had any issue was an intersection that was slushy from traffic, with ice underneath. Slush on top of ice is about as bad as it gets. Even still the allseasons my SUV had last winter would have been overwhelmed by the snow approaching the intersection, and absolutely useless on the slush and ice. My snow tires had to fight for grip, but pulled me through confidently.

If you have a manual transmission, keep the clutch engaged until you are about to stop. The engine will help to keep from locking up the wheels. My truck with a manual transmission is better under breaking than my SUV with ABS, that is until I have to press the clutch pedal, than it becomes all to easy to lock up.

Future next gen S2000 owner > Quadradeuce
12/29/2015 at 12:45

Lions. You are right though. That could be said for most of northern Wisconsin and the U.P.

Tohru > Quadradeuce
12/29/2015 at 12:53

Hello from Wisconsin Dells!

My roommate drove 35 miles home last night in my ‘95 F150 2WD with a set of 15 year old BFG All-Terrain T/As on the back. If you drive careful and don’t have your head up your ass you don't even need AWD.

Scott > HammerheadFistpunch
12/29/2015 at 12:57

I would add to the very top, a big 4WD truck, manual transmission, and LOTS of weight. I actually got rear ended by a cop, while driving my Dodge Ram in snow and ice, with an old slide in Camper in the bed. I came up on a light, and hit the brakes when the light turned yellow. The cop behind me was unable to stop that quickly and rear ended me. Neither vehicle had any damage, but he said as a police officer he had to report it and get an officer from another department to file a report. He admitted he was going to pull me over for driving too fast for condition, but since I was able to stop so fast, he felt he did not have a case. He did tell me to slow down so others don't think they can drive that fast. and while I strongly advocate snow tires, my truck had typical light truck, all season M+S tires. But than truck tires are closer to snow tires than all season tires are. I can't recall if I had 4WD engaged at the time, but I would guess I did not. I rarely use it until I need it. The only time I might use it when I don't need it is just to get oil circulating in the differential.

HammerheadFistpunch > Scott
12/29/2015 at 13:15

Depends. My big fat truck doesn’t do as well as I would like in the winter. I stand by the list. Weight over the tires helps for traction (Tractive force = µN) but it always works equally against you when it comes time to change vectors (F = Ma) so I call it a wash.

Scott > HammerheadFistpunch
12/29/2015 at 13:32

Maybe poor aerodynamics of a camper help to offset some aspects. All I know is that in the winter, with the bed empty, my truck is pretty good. Slide the camper in and it suddenly becomes a sports truck of the north. Not possible to loose traction on acceleration, or breaking, and turning... well the high CG is the limit there, not traction. while everyone else is spinning their tires searching for grip, I pull away as if it is dry pavement. It certainly helps that all that weight is centered over the rear axel. Granted the fact the brakes are unable to overcome the engine, and the traction of the tires is likely due to the momentum of all that weight. But I am certainly able to stop fast than I care too, and way faster than anyone else on the road. Certainly no competition compared to a car on dry pavement, but seems about equal to what my truck is able to due on dry pavement.

Ross Kraz > Quadradeuce
12/29/2015 at 14:26

DUN DUN DUN dunununuh GO PACK GO!!!

In September, I bought a house in Suamico. Shortly after, I bought an old Ariens snowblower. Finally got to use it this morning but seriously underestimated the amount of time it would take me.

It works great but the drifts were higher than the snowblower and the wind couldn’t make up its mind (usually it liked to blow snow right back into my face no matter which direction I had the chute). 1 hour and 45 minutes later, some shoveling, and then salt...I still can’t lift my arms without them shaking.

On the bright side, snow means that we can play drunk parking lot tailgate tackle football this weekend.

WiscoProud > Takuro Spirit
12/29/2015 at 14:38

I live in Milwaukee, the airport reported 9" and is a few miles SE of me. I would estimate I got the same. Super heavy snow though.

WiscoProud > Quadradeuce
12/29/2015 at 14:46

I agree wholeheartedly with your post. I will also add that you need to be aware of how much ground clearance you have. I don’t care if you have snow tires and awd, if the snow is so deep its lifting your tires off the ground, you’re not going anywhere. Our street wasn’t plowed until this morning and a Neon got stuck in the middle. He wasn’t turning or anything, he just didn’t have enough clearance for the snow. Likewise my neighbor has a 4th gen Ford Explorer that has less than 7” of clearance at the control arms. I also had to help dig him out. For snow I think LSDs are perfect.

Incidentally, I have a bunch of family in Green Bay and they were saying they had over a foot at their houses.

WiscoProud > HammerheadFistpunch
12/29/2015 at 14:49

I haven't driven an 80, but why do you feel like you have less control? My 100 is like a tank for not getting stuck and keeping control. Is it the solid front axle? Full disclosure the only solid front axle vehicle I've driven is a Jeep unlimited.

WiscoProud > Scott
12/29/2015 at 14:52

The M+S rated tires took me through many Wisconsin winters, don’t discount them. I stick with severe service rated now, which are basically snow tires with big lugs.

HammerheadFistpunch > WiscoProud
12/29/2015 at 14:52

nah, its just the stopping and turning a big ass truck thing. The duratracs are AMAZING in the snow when new, but I guess they loose some of their mountain snowflakiness as they wear down.

WiscoProud > Quadradeuce
12/29/2015 at 14:53

You're absolutely right about the Wausau analogy. Nice town, but no one has heard of it.

WiscoProud > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s
12/29/2015 at 14:54

I'm forced to take 43 on my commute. I left at 3:30 or so, and never got above 20 mph. We were always moving though.

WiscoProud > HammerheadFistpunch
12/29/2015 at 14:55

How many miles do you have on them? I only had my Xterra for a year, so I basically had new tires the entire time.

WiscoProud > Scott
12/29/2015 at 14:58

I always advise people to practice in parking lots, especially when they get a new vehicle or new tires. During rough conditions I will test my traction too when no one is near me. Give it a little extra gas or extra brake, and see if traction is lost. Its a good way to keep the limits in your head.

HammerheadFistpunch > WiscoProud
12/29/2015 at 15:53

I’ve got about 25-30k on them.

WiscoProud > HammerheadFistpunch
12/29/2015 at 15:56

That's not too bad. How's the tread on them?

HammerheadFistpunch > WiscoProud
12/29/2015 at 16:00

pretty good actually, I am betting on another 20k before replacement.

WiscoProud > HammerheadFistpunch
12/29/2015 at 16:01

I got nothing then. Interesting though.

Quadradeuce > WiscoProud
12/29/2015 at 19:27

Ground clearance is huge when it comes to snow. A modern bumper or diffuser is no match for a plow berm. Snow wins every time.

Quadradeuce > Ross Kraz
12/29/2015 at 19:28

I left work at noon because my back was annihilated. Now I have to get back out there and finish the shoveling...

Quadradeuce > Tohru
12/29/2015 at 19:30

Agreed, but I’ve spent more than my fair share time behind the wheel ofa 2WD pickup. Worst. Winter. Car. Ever.

WiscoProud > HammerheadFistpunch
12/30/2015 at 11:28

This dawned on me last night, what width are your tires? For snow (on road at least) skinnier is better. Anything about 300 width is pushing it and negatively impacts handling. Of course if you're in real deep stuff, the extra width will start helping again with a wider footprint.

HammerheadFistpunch > WiscoProud
12/30/2015 at 11:33

They are 285, so pretty wide but I can tell you they were a lot better in the snow new than they are now. Still pretty good, but not nearly as sure footed

WiscoProud > HammerheadFistpunch
12/30/2015 at 11:43

That’s pretty much the same as my 275s. That’s so weird, I would love to know why it diminished. maybe the sipes aren't as deep now due to wear? No idea.

HammerheadFistpunch > WiscoProud
12/30/2015 at 11:45

MY guesses are 2 fold:

1. worn down sipes

2. Harder compound with wear to prolong tire life. I’ve noticed that the tire feels harder and less squishy now.

WiscoProud > HammerheadFistpunch
12/30/2015 at 12:05

I could see that. I would like to know how they compare to other snowflake tires at 50% tread. I think it would be a difficult but useful comparison.