Detroit can't get over itself...

"Josh Welton" (watchtheprettylight) 03/27/2014 at 16:06 • Filed to: detroit, shinola, brown dog welding

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This is pretty much a response to !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . Jon Moy eviscerates Shinola and it's parent company for using Detroit as a buzz word.

I'm not from the city, I'm not even from the SE Michigan area. I grew up in the Bible Belt just south of Grand Rapids. I'm a middle aged white guy, so I'm sure whatever I have to say on the issue will be considered less relevant than the youth native to Detroit.

But I learned to weld, I became a tradesman, and I honed my craft in Detroit. I worked in the city for the better part of a decade. I'd like to set up my own shop down there one day, if not for certain life obstacles I've face the last few years I'd be there already. And it's got nothing to do with this contemporary notion that seems to anger those that are there now...that all these 25 to 45 white folks are trying to take this city for themselves.

No, it's because Detroit is the Industrial Mecca. Automotive Capital of the World. The !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . Heck, at the turn of the last century it was the largest stove manufacturer in the world. It's alway been about building stuff, whether it's cars or ships or tanks or planes. Ghosts of past endeavors still hide in buildings abandoned, in use, and in between(like Piquette) throughout the city. I've got a few friends that collect industrial machinery to refurbish and use, and there's no shortage of treasures around here.

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I want to see the city succeed, but I don't have any misgivings of being a "white knight." Even so, you're pissed that somebody's using "your" city as a marketing ploy? Because marketing and consumerism are typically so altruistic, right? Because "your" city has been so successful at marketing itself, right? This is the same goddam mindset that led to a proud city's spiral into chaos: "Nobody is gonna fix this unless it's us." Well....we're waiting? I can't help but think that when someone reads as much racism and spite into a seemingly benign situation as the author did in this piece, there's some transference going on.

Forget that. !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . Literally and figuratively. If people and/or corporations want to do ANYTHING that resembles a positive step...why not let them? If you want to question if a bike or a watch that's assembled in Detroit is truly made in Detroit, I get that and I've read those concerns before and to me those are reasonable queries with varying answers. I've got my own opinions on that, but for some reason race never entered the equation in my head. Conjuring up images of "savages" and "white knights"...is that going to do any good, at any time, to any one? Nope, it's just staying stuck in the same cycle of us versus them. !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! would be proud.

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Racescort666 > Josh Welton 03/27/2014 at 16:20

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I didn't read the entire article in question so I might be off a little bit but the author clearly doesn't understand how cars are made either if his argument is that there are a few products that are only assembled in Detroit. Most of the auto lines are final assembly only with parts coming in from all over the world.

Plus, I agree. I view Detroit as a sort of industrial Mecca as well. There is a large population of very skilled people in the metro area that can design and build some of the most complex machines on earth. Why is it such a sin to take advantage of that? It doesn't need to be automotive, this workforce is valuable to any industry.

Party-vi > Josh Welton 03/27/2014 at 16:21

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I completely agree with you, but have one small bone to pick about Shinola.

Buying Ronda quartz movements in bulk and "hand assembling" them in Detroit does not make them worth the ridiculous prices they're charging. Also, calling it a "USA movement, Swiss parts" is like calling your Corolla a Toyota car with a Lotus engine.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Racescort666 03/27/2014 at 16:29

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It's not just the manufacturing, but the detroit area as a whole has an incredibly large engineering and research capacity. All of those suppliers are stuffed to the brim with engineers and scientists. Cars may be #1 but oil and chemicals are definitely #2 or 3. Don't forget the University of michigan - Ann Arbor is a powerhouse in academia with their resources and staff. If we don't utilize all of that, then there will never be a recovery.

Josh Welton > Party-vi 03/27/2014 at 16:29

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I'm not totally at odds with that idea. From what I've read their intention is to expand into doing mechanical movements, but starting that in the US is a tough row to hoe. The price I can't complain about because they started lower and sold out before production began. That's pretty much how I do my pricing, base it on demand as much as anything.

Detroit has a rich(recent) tradition of claiming heritage that's iffy. Made in Detroit moved out(and I think back?), the Big 3 all started outsourcing prodigiously while holding on to the tag, Carhartt still has the "Detroit" jacket that's now made in Mexico, etc., etc. I guess I try to look at the intent, and I think Shinola is really trying to dig in. Guess we'll see.

Z_Stig > Party-vi 03/27/2014 at 16:40

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I can't give this comment enough stars. Even more comical, they try to give the Rhonda quartz movement their own unique name as if they modify it, which they totally do not do.

Their website is even worse. When you hover your mouse over the Watches link, a blurb pops up with the text "In 60 years, a grandfather will finally be able to hand down an American wrist watch" or something to that effect.

Complete and utter bullshit! Have they not heard of the original Hamilton company (before Swatch revived it) or Elgin!? Coincidentally, I have my Speedy and my dad's vintage Hamilton CLD (which was his grandfather's) at my watchmaker for service at the moment. For $200, the watchmaker is restoring the Hamilton. So, I'm getting a freshly serviced, authentic American watch, a quality American designed and built movement, and a watch with history; that's a much better value than the $500 Shinola is charging for their contrived vision.

/endrant

Party-vi > Josh Welton 03/27/2014 at 16:43

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I can respect what Shinola is doing 100%, but I just wouldn't buy their product or suggest it to anyone looking for a good deal on a watch. They are very good looking though, just not for the price.

Party-vi > Z_Stig 03/27/2014 at 16:46

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I hear you - I've got my grandfather's Elgin sitting in a case waiting for the day I can service and wear it. Also, has Shinola ever heard of Bulova? I've got quite a few of those (albeit with Swiss movements, but it is an American company). $200 sounds like a great deal to restore a watch. I remember spending three times that to have a 1940 Bulova done.

Z_Stig > Party-vi 03/27/2014 at 16:51

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Thankfully, it's not in too bad of shape right now. The crown and winding stem were broke, but the watchmaker said that wasn't too bad. The case and dial look pretty decent and the crystal just needs a polish. From what I can gather, it's late-50s to early-60s vintage, but he's going to find some more info for me.

Do you collect old watches?

Party-vi > Z_Stig 03/27/2014 at 17:00

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I used to, before I had commitments like insurance and a mortgage haha. I've got mostly '60s and '70s era mechanical watches, with a few '40s examples and a mid-19th century Swiss bar movement (converted pocket watch), plus some other odds and ends. I've got about a dozen other pocket watch movements that I had planned to restore but just lost interest.

Z_Stig > Party-vi 03/27/2014 at 17:02

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Very cool. I think I need to go raid my dad's jewelry box again and see what I can find haha

Party-vi > Z_Stig 03/27/2014 at 17:09

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When I get some time I'll start posting pics of what I have in my personal blog. No need to clutter up Oppo's FP. In the meantime, here's the calender complication from an old Lucerne I picked up. A pinion on the movement would strike the 8-tooth gear on the left each day and rotate a hand on the dial.

DCCARGEEK > Party-vi 03/28/2014 at 13:13

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Yes, they are more art than function. If someone were looking for a good deal on a paperweight, I wouldn't recommend one of BrownDogWelding's great pieces of art. Why? They could get something much cheaper to hold paper on a desk. But if they wanted a nice looking piece of art - I would highly recommend his product. Point is, price isn't always defined by function. I own a Shinola watch and hope, once I'm moved into my new place, add some of the kickass art the OP makes.

Josh Welton > DCCARGEEK 03/28/2014 at 17:55

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I probably should have gone more in depth to a few of his other complaints like price, but I guess the anger towards outsiders is what struck me most about this piece. The thing with cost is...PEOPLE ARE PAYING IT. I believe they raised the prices after their initial offering because they sold out before production started. I'd raise my prices too and not think twice about it. A related note to that: as opposed his idea that Shinola was banking on the Detroit name and *knew* it would pay of: they took a gamble. I think they pry had a pretty good idea it would work, but the fact that people dig the style, the product, and package enough to pay a premium above even what it was first offered at is nothing to be ashamed of.

And I completely agree with the paperweight analogy. I've increased my prices dramatically since I started, and one reason was to get away from the crowd that only see paperweights.

Josh Welton > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 03/28/2014 at 17:56

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THIS

ZweiDeutschesAutos > Z_Stig 04/01/2014 at 07:25

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I agree with your broader point. I really wish Hamilton still made their watches here. I have a Jazzmaster Viewmatic and Khaki Frogman and love the vintage American style but wish they had more than suggested lineage to back it up.

Where I disagree with you is on the Shinola price issue. I have a Brakeman 46mm and for $625 list I don't think it's a bad deal. You're just getting into cheap autos at that price and it's pretty comparable to a generic higher-end Quartz from Japan (i.e. Citizen) which have less character and quality of finish.

To me it's like a Chevy SS (Shinola) vs a Honda Accord EX V6 (Citizen). The Chevy is sort of American but not really and it's slightly more money than the Accord while being much cooler. Does it get as much shit as Shinola for doing this? Maybe but not quite. It's still seen as an American car even if it really isn't. It's also much cheaper than a BMW 550i (equivalent to your Omega). As cool as a vintage American muscle car (Hamilton)? No but we're still glad it exists.

In that same vein I'm glad to see my Shinola in my watch box (next to some equivalent stuff and some far more expensive Swiss mechanicals). It's hopefully the start of something and all at a price that while slightly high is also justifiable particularly when compared to most of what us watch guys spend on our stuff!

ZweiDeutschesAutos > Party-vi 04/01/2014 at 07:27

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Is the Chevy SS still a Chevy? How about the Cadillac ATS? They're both basically the same thing as Shinola.

Party-vi > ZweiDeutschesAutos 04/01/2014 at 08:15

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Wat?

ZweiDeutschesAutos > Party-vi 04/01/2014 at 10:56

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USA branded and generally embraced for being American, but the mechanicals are still foreign. Isn't that the same as a Ronda movement in a Shinola?

Party-vi > ZweiDeutschesAutos 04/01/2014 at 11:03

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I'm having trouble with your foreign mechanicals bit. The SS has an LS motor and the ATS has an Ecotec engine (among other options). Or are you referring to the badge engineering done on the SS? The ATS is based on a domestic GM platform and isn't engineered off of any Holden vehicle (as far as I know). Plus Holden is still GM and the technology came from GM in the United States.

Shinola is tauting that their movement is built in the USA and uses Swiss parts. If they're so proud of the movement being assembled in the United States why do they feel the need to mention the Swiss parts? Unless the movement was assembled in Switzerland with mostly Swiss labor there's no reason to mention where the parts come from. The phase "Swiss parts" has no meaning beyond establishing where the movement components originate from, but Shinola is hoping to get consumers interested by use the Swiss image of quality watches and craftsmanship. It's a bunch of marketing bullshit that seems to be working thus far.