Let's Stop F1 + IMSA Screwing Up Racing

"LeoParente" (shakedown)
03/23/2014 at 12:56 • Filed to: shakedown

F1 and IMSA provide the foundation for details on how to make Racing NOT suck. The 2014 Formula 1 debut in Melbourne, Australia ended with an Infiniti Red Bull disqualification over fuel flow. The TUDOR United SportsCar Championship at the Sebring 12hr was Round 2 of the new series and the 2nd straight race of missteps and controversy.

Leo Parente and /ShakeDown discuss the wtf's and the why-not's to make Racing fun, again. 'The Responsibility of Racing TO Racing' is the topic. And there is more than enough fodder for your comments.

DISCUSSION (55)

pirates-ecu > LeoParente
03/23/2014 at 14:12

f1 is fine, only people stuck in the past, or sucking on the RBR teet are mad about this year.

now for imsa, 6 hours of freaking yellow in a 12 hour race is just stupid.;.... they need to start pitting in 2 groups..... DP and P , and everything else . The whole 4 laps just to pit everyone is complete horse shit.

Autolegend86 > LeoParente
03/23/2014 at 14:17

Explain your responding on how F1 is fine.

hatbob > LeoParente
03/23/2014 at 14:19

F1 is absolutely fine.

1 engine or 4 and a thriving competitive and relevant f-1 series.

I love that the cars are more powerful, less stable and more fuel efficient. These are all great things. Fuel flow is an important limitation because it limits power. They had to get rid of turbos before because of dangerous power levels, by limiting fuel flow you can have turbos and develop relevant tech for the rest of the automotive world but avoid 1500hp designs.

It's going to be the best season ever!

Fuck all you whining moaning neo-luddites. Embrace the change.

P.s. Plus DRS is less gimmicky now and same with new types KERS. They are there for a reason not to fix a passing problem.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formul…

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > LeoParente
03/23/2014 at 14:26

Honestly, I think this F1 season is going to be one of the most exciting in years. If the rest of the races are similar to the Australian GP, it's going to be very fun to watch. The cars are on a new platform, and nobody seems to have it completely figured out. It means the playing field is more level. In the past several seasons there have obviously been a few dominant teams and then the sort of "underdog" teams if you will. The changes for this season, both in terms of the platform and driver/team switches, seem to have taken a bit of that guaranteed dominance away. I thought the racing in this first GP was much more exciting, and there seemed to be a lot more of a competitive nature to it. Yeah, the RBR disqualification may be on a rather weird or stupid (whatever you want to call it) rule, but it's a rule that all the other teams dealt with too. I'm not saying there aren't places to improve, but for the most part I think the changes that have been made are going to produce one of the more exciting F1 seasons we've seen in a long time.

BlueBMWGuy > LeoParente
03/23/2014 at 14:39

Perhaps, Jalopnik should start a fund raiser... Just so we can hire the Stig for a few hours, Drive him over to Fox Sports, help him find the C.E.O. and kick that guy hard in his gentleman's sausage/meatballs for cancelling the Speed Channel. It's because of his shortsightedness, we can no longer view the Dakar Rally, IMSA racing in it's entirety, and F1 races. tell me that wouldn't be fun watching? A brand new Top Gear Challenge?

It's really a shame that the Velocity Channel didn't pickup where Speed left off..

mitsustiggy > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
03/23/2014 at 14:56

Totally agree. Will be nice to see an end to the Vettel Dominance

BrendanM > LeoParente
03/23/2014 at 14:56

I don't actually have a problem with the effect of the new rules in F1 this year in regards to the way they've shaken up the field, giving smaller, less successful teams a chance to rebuild themselves. That said, I strongly disagree with the attempts at fuel efficiency - it kills the racing and the spirit of F1, which is flat out racing. The only reason Melbourne was so exciting was because of the safety car laps, allowing the drivers to save fuel for a few laps and drive flat out to the finish. I wouldn't expect Malaysia to be quite as exciting unless something similar happens, although that definitely is a possibility.

The point is, all of this fuel saving tech is great, but it has it's place in the WEC. It's time for the FIA to start thinking about what the fans want, which doesn't include quiet, slow and ugly cars of the "future." Let's just hope that Christian Horner does get the reins of F1 eventually, and that we'll begin to see some flat-out racing in a few seasons time.

gearjammr > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
03/23/2014 at 14:58

I agree... mostly because RBR DNF'd. Its great that Renault has dominated for 5 years and now cannot get the new engine package together. I cannot stand watching Nascar for the same reason F1 has been so boring... 1 team dominates the championship.(Johnson-Vettel). Id like to see everyone on the same page, but would have a great time watching Ferrari and Merc powered teams battling it out.

Grivyn > pirates-ecu
03/23/2014 at 15:27

What I'd like to see is an end to artificially induced barriers. I watch racing to see the quickest car and driver win, not who has the best software that can walk the tight rope of fuel limits, false tire wear and silly DRS. Actual driving skill has no place in F1 anymore.

pirates-ecu > Grivyn
03/23/2014 at 15:58

did you watch last week, did you see the rear happy cars that every one had to deal with. The first race of the year was some of the best driving i have ever seen in my life....

try taking your head out of your ass, and watch the race with out a bias.... Every driver was using every drop of skill to get those cars home, and it was a hell of a race....

sorry if you don't like F1 anymore... but the doors right there.

onerunjunior > Grivyn
03/23/2014 at 16:32

Bottas would disagree with you. So would Kvyat, Magnussen and others. They all drove brilliantly.

onerunjunior > BlueBMWGuy
03/23/2014 at 16:33

Blame NASCAR for the decline of Speed. They bought the whole place out to show dumbass truck racing practice when things like the 24 Hours of Le Mans were on.

Nimrodical > LeoParente
03/23/2014 at 17:15

Go here: https://www.facebook.com/UnitedSportsCa…

Let them know what you think.

hatbob > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
03/23/2014 at 17:20

It isn't a stupid rule. Turbos can give an ungodly amount of power which is incredibly dangerous. The old BMW qualy spec engines in the 1980's put out well over a 1000hp. Limiting max fuel flow limits max power making F1 somewhat safe.

They need turbos for F1 to be relevant to what manufacturers are doing and it gives us much more powerful cars this year. They need some kind of limit on power though. Once you pick a limit you have to stick to it or everyone would cheat.

hatbob > Grivyn
03/23/2014 at 17:28

You are clearly someone who has no idea about racing heritage. Limits were introduced almost from the beginning. You cannot have cars putting out over a 1000hp as it become far to dangerous. There is a responsibility on the organizers to look after the safety of the drivers. You tell a driver he can have a car with 3000hp and they will drive it.

Now for you whining.

1. Fuel flow limits stop cars producing dangerous amounts of power. They used to limit the turbos but those can be useful in normal cars so they limit the fuel flow.

2. Fuel limit is there to force innovation on hybrid systems.

3. There is no false tire wear. Pirelli could make a super compound which would last the race. That would be a boring race. I still remember Hamiltons amazing charge on bald tires at the end of one of the GP which was incredible to watch until it exploded on the last lap.

4. The DRS has been refined, it's no gimmicky anymore

Go fuck yourself, they are incredibly talented drivers.

hatbob > BrendanM
03/23/2014 at 17:34

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. The cars are more powerful, less stable while being more fuel efficient. If you love racing more power and less stability is a great thing.

F1 doesn't exist in a vacuum. Renault was going to pull if it didn't have some relevance to the industry. Honda only came back because of the changes. 1 Engine type would have sucked. The fuel flow limits are to put a limit on power, it's no different to banning turbos or turbo RPM.

The results of the restrictions are always aiming for the same thing. You need to have some limits on power for safety. We will never see flat-out racing there will always be limits for safety. The new cars are more exciting than the old ones and that's good enough for me.

Stop being a luddite and embrace the changes.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formul…

pirates-ecu > Autolegend86
03/23/2014 at 17:42

see above... we have explained it more then enough.... Its going to be the best year ever...

Watch it or don't, I don't fucking care... JUST STOP BITCHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

pirates-ecu > pirates-ecu
03/23/2014 at 17:46

Last year, the 2.4-litre V8s were producing around 760bhp and using in the region of 150kg of fuel to complete a race distance. This year's turbo hybrids pump out as much as 850bhp and use only 100kg of fuel in a race. That's an increase of efficiency in the region of 35% - for significantly more performance.

pirates-ecu > BrendanM
03/23/2014 at 17:47

"Last year, the 2.4-litre V8s were producing around 760bhp and using in the region of 150kg of fuel to complete a race distance. This year's turbo hybrids pump out as much as 850bhp and use only 100kg of fuel in a race. That's an increase of efficiency in the region of 35% - for significantly more performance."

will tin hat covered fans like you please go jump off a bridge.

The real fans are doing back flips after Australia... the trolls AHEMMM are on message boards bitching..... which do you think you fall under.

Miata. Cos HP is cheating. > LeoParente
03/23/2014 at 18:33

Yeah, sorry. No sale.

Redbull broke the rules, simple as that. Disqualification for that is nothing new and goes back to the grandiose days of leather helmets and skinny tires that you all seem to think was so awesome: Yay for the race leader winning by tens of minutes!

The IMSA issues at Sebring are indefensibly laughable. Your packaging of your issues with F1 as a rider on complaints regarding IMSA's massive screw ups would even make the tea party proud!

Rich J > LeoParente
03/23/2014 at 21:50

Great Shakedown. Agree with so much of this.

With regards to the excessive yellows and bad calls at IMSA's race control office, I invoke Hanlon's Razor: " Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

Basically, while the series may have NASCAR-ized a bit, the bad calls are more likely dumb acts than attempts to make a point. Which is really more likely when the DP went off track with an hour to go:

A) Race Control just starts up the half-hour yellow procedure, not thinking about the effects it will have on the competition, because that's what we do.

B) The NASCAR Yellow/Red/Purple/Blue striped phone started ringing, and Brian France, from his secret lair, called for a Secret Competition Caution, while petting a white cat and sipping brandy in the inky shadows.

My opinion: training and more experience in race control. Get Frietas from the WEC in to "Guest Direct" some races. He's done such a good job, that nobody really knows who he is.

Wilson > BrendanM
03/23/2014 at 22:23

This season's F1 cars aren't that far off last year's pace, all things considered. There's every reason to believe that they'll be beating last year's times by the end of this season - despite the large increase in available torque this year that makes them more difficult to drive and much more fun to watch.

Fuel restrictions aren't just about efficient usage, it also means that much higher priority is placed on the ERS systems. Because of the massive instantaneous torque available from the electric motors and the fuel limit incentives the FIA is giving the teams, I think we're going to see a crazy amount of speed coming out of those systems over the next few years since their development is such a high priority.

And as to how the cars look, F1 development has always been driven by function over form. If appearance were significant, we should have prohibited all design changes back in the 60s before aero started screwing up those beautiful machines.

steevkay > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
03/24/2014 at 00:38

Right on, and I still find it amazing that there are so many viewers complaining about the noise or the engine size or the turbo or the Pirellis or the rev limit etc etc etc

It was an interesting race, we still have the unseen race battle between Hamilton and Rosberg, others will begin to close the gap... there's much to look forward to. The old formula had become stagnant; the new one is fresh and interesting. It's good to see drivers fighting their cars again.

DCrants > Grivyn
03/24/2014 at 00:54

You realize the software plays a minor part with these cars, right? Most everything is pre-set and can no longer be changed.

DCrants > pirates-ecu
03/24/2014 at 00:57

But if they sstopped bitching, they'd have to recognize this same boring argument has existed in F1 since the dawn of time.

DCrants > Wilson
03/24/2014 at 01:09

This season's F1 cars aren't that far off last year's pace, all things considered. There's every reason to believe that they'll be beating last year's times by the end of this season

So right. Teams are saying they'll pull 3-4 seconds off by the end of the year...and with McLaren already claiming they'll be 0.5s faster this next race than the last....look out.

osob > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
03/24/2014 at 02:59

only thing i miss it the sound. as a TV audience, without the engine sound F1 does sound like the support series

Stef Schrader > LeoParente
03/24/2014 at 06:19

Heh, that's a pretty good pre-made IMSA statement. You ever work in racecar PR?

bariki > LeoParente
03/24/2014 at 06:51

FWIW, did bringing the two main professional road racing series in the US not decrease the total number of cars on the grid and the total number of races? Which means that the total number of race seats for up and coming racers also decreased. Not a statement, just a question. But if it's true, that seems like a step back.

More money in US road racing would be a good thing. With more money (apparently you can earn prize money at the grassroots level of stock car racing!), people should (in theory) be more willing to take on up and coming amateur racers instead of trying to make up for the size of their budgets with gentlemen drivers.

Imagine if there was real upward mobility for Spec Miata, DSR/FSR, and other club racers in the US.

But the sad fact is that road racing is a minor sport in the US. You would have a better time taking your money and racing in Europe or Japan, or resigning to a stock car career, since the money is better.

I think the question we should be asking is what would it take to get NASCAR-level US viewership of road racing (and therefore NASCAR-level investments of Other People's Money), or is that simply not possible?

What about supporting races at NASCAR events at venues with combined road courses? Or would there simply need to be an investment in buying airtime on major sports networks? Maybe the reason Americans like NASCAR is because they'd rather watch cars do 200 MPH in circles right in front of them than do 190 MPH around corners 300 feet away.

Maybe it could be something as spending some money convincing Walmart to sell posters of the cars? I'm sure Duck Dynasty will be fine with one less poster on the shelf...

minikupr > LeoParente
03/24/2014 at 08:11

I think that F1 has to fulfill 2 requirements:

1 - most technologically advanced

2 - exciting racing

Unfortunately, when you have a team that is technologically ahead of someone else, the it does not become exciting anymore.

The biggest problem I have right now, is the sound/engines. The new rules, while they may provide for an exciting season, make me feel like we are not seeing everything that we could come out from the teams. Having heard F1 engines before the rules changed, there was this excitement going through my stomach when they passed by. And while I am not saying that they are quiet, or that they are slow, they do seem quieter and slower than what could be technologically achieved. And while I dont necessarily like Mr. Ecclestone, I do agree with him that "fuel saving" is in my opinion a bad reason for these drastic changes, given that its a sprint race where u dont even refuel. In 24h races, I understand it, it gives you an advantage, but I while I dont know how much fuel they save as compared to last year on a race weekend, I highly doubt it offsets the fuel that their motor homes and other optional facilities consume just by transporting them from one venue to another.

jodark > steevkay
03/24/2014 at 08:37

There are team owners complaining about the noise. It seriously sucks. One of the trademarks of F1 is the scream and it is gone. I will say it is a lot easier to fall asleep during races now though.

kniga > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
03/24/2014 at 08:50

F1 is not going to be fun if they keep disqualifying people on the podium. Disqualifying Ricciardo was the worst PR disaster in a long time. Disqualifying a relative rookie who just won his first podium with a new team in the first race of the season on his home soil, and for the first time for that country, was a really bad way to start the season. And besides, limiting fuel flow was a bad idea from get go. Every fan said that. Then there were real concerns with the reliability of the fuel flow meters and now we get this.

kniga > gearjammr
03/24/2014 at 08:53

So far officially, all three podium spots are taken by Mercedes-powered cars. Moreover, Mercedes has given everyone clear hints that Rosberg wasn't pushing as hard as he could. Get ready for Mercedes domination this year.

SaiDas > LeoParente
03/24/2014 at 10:09

I like the changes so far even if for just one race, but the engine note of these new engines is just awful. Tune the exhaust or something because the sound was a big part of the F1 experience.

brandondrums > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
03/24/2014 at 10:44

By that logic though, why not put them all on customer chassis and heck, why even worry about them being Formula cars at all? GoKarts would work just fine - they won't break any records but frankly I don't think these F1 Cars have much of a chance of doing that either.

If you want to save fuel, then tell them to use less fuel. Don't do that AND tell them they need a turbo 1.6L V6 AND that you can only carry X amount of fuel in the car per race AND that the fuel can only flow at X rate AND that you can't do XYZPDQ with your aero AND you have to put a penis on your car.

I find all of this hilarious because even as someone who does NOT like NASCAR because they keep things over-regulated, they do let them have some large engines. If you do the math, you'll find that their giant 7L pushrod V8's with 800hp use LESS fuel than Forumula one cars do.

Why? Fewer Revs/mile.

brandondrums > hatbob
03/24/2014 at 10:47

Everyone Cheating means Everyone is on the same level. If there's no rule, it's not cheating.

Plus it's not the fuel flow rule alone that makes all of this really dumb. It's that AND all of the other rules.

Limit fuel flow, displacement and total fuel consumption for engine spec. Limit wheelbase, min weight and wing surface area and location for aero.

Then be done with it and see who makes a better car. That's racing.

What we have with the 2014 Forumula 1 Series is coloring by numbers.

boobaru > kniga
03/24/2014 at 10:49

As much as I enjoy watching Vettel win (to silence all the insufferable Ferrari bros), I would much rather watch a Ricciardo/Rosberg battle. They both have the pace, neither have a WDC, and are generally cool dudes. If Renault ever gets their head out of their ass it should make for a good year.

bonzomatic > LeoParente
03/24/2014 at 10:52

I'll admit that I've never been a huge F1 fan, but I decided to watch the Monaco race last year and I was really disappointed. 2 second pit stops and no refueling? It's just too sanitized and technical now, and I lost interest immediately. It's like watching slot car racing.

hatbob > brandondrums
03/24/2014 at 10:52

Come back again when you aren't high. I don't get what you gibberish means.

brandondrums > hatbob
03/24/2014 at 11:07

? "I don't get what you gibberish means"
Considering it's not gibberish, it sounds like you're the one that's high.

"Once you pick a limit you have to stick to it or everyone would cheat."

Not only is your statement extremely obvious but you're also defending a stupid rule simply by the merit that it's a rule. The FIA already limits:

Fuel consumption
Engine Displacement
Boost pressure
Engine Revs
Engine Configuration

AND they make them put penises on the nose of the car. What a RIOT!

If you want to make cars LESS expensive and use LESS fuel - tell them they can only use X amount of fuel per race and engines can't be larger than X Litres nor can they flow more than X amount of air per sec (like lemans)

Limiting flow rate PLUS total fuel consumption while allowing them to engineering their own fuel mix is not a productive strategy. That makes the series far MORE costly to take part in when the goal is to be LESS expensive.

willkinton247 > Rich J
03/24/2014 at 11:07

Exactly. They are learning how to run a sports car series, and this is a mistake out of stupidity.

hatbob > brandondrums
03/24/2014 at 11:09

No, you are just plain wrong. Fuel flow limits power for safety. Total fuel consumption drives hybrid tech which is relevant to the industry.

boobaru > LeoParente
03/24/2014 at 13:26

I think the changes are great. The turbo energy harvesting is very applicable to future consumer offerings, and I hope it trickles down. I will say that I had this idea in high school for some Visa technical competition, so I will wait for my check in the mail. I have the dated schematic somewhere...

This much technical upheaval is healthy for the sport. Separates luck from skill, rule-gaming from competence.

brandondrums > hatbob
03/24/2014 at 14:08

You clearly aren't reading what I'm saying or perhaps you don't understand how cars and Formula 1 work.

Using LESS fuel per unit of air often means MORE power if you can prevent knock. The leaner you can run the mix (to a limit) means a hotter and stronger burn. The reason cars need more fuel in their mix than LBT (lean best torque) is to prevent the cars from blowing up.

The MOST money in F1 engineering is spent on fuel and lubricants and as far as I know the rules haven't changed to prevent teams from engineering their own fuels or lubricants for the new engines. Before with the v-8's and v-10's they engineered fuels with the quickest burn rates to enable the cars to reach the highest revs - octane didn't matter as much as volatility and flame propagation.

Now, they'll engineer fuels to have the highest octane possible and the highest specific heat to keep the engines from pinging and melting down under the higher compression ratios due to forced induction.

Forced induction gives more freedom to make torque and horsepower than cylinder count and if the fuel rules aren't further tightened to prevent teams from engineering high stability race fuels their fuel flow limits won't do much in the long-term to limit power.

ONLY limiting airflow will do that. Chemistry is a powerful thing.

brandondrums > hatbob
03/24/2014 at 14:12

Oh and here's some references to everything I just said.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/01/15/new…

http://www.formula1.com/news/features/…

http://www.roadandtrack.com/racing/formula…

BrendanM > Wilson
03/24/2014 at 14:16

I've actually done a lot of research since several people replied to my comment and I realize that I was being naive. I agree with a lot of what you said in your reply and I'll think more carefully and make sure I know the full story before my next comment. Thank you for being respectful in your reply

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > gearjammr
03/24/2014 at 21:25

I can't wait for Honda's return in 2015!!! I'm an import guy and am eagerly awaiting having a Japanese manufacturer back in F1.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > hatbob
03/24/2014 at 21:25

I don't think it's stupid, I was just saying that whatever some people may consider it (and some think it's stupid) it is what it is. They need to accept that it's there for a reason.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > jodark
03/24/2014 at 21:32

I agree that the engine noise isn't quite what it used to be, but that's been sort of a trend in F1 for a long time. The engines have gotten smaller and that obviously changes the noise. I think they still sound good, but obviously they aren't going to have that scream that the V12s, V10s, V8s had. I never said there aren't improvements to be made, but I think the increase in competitiveness between all the teams more than makes up for the decrease in engine noise.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > brandondrums
03/24/2014 at 21:44

Well if you get rid of all the rules it becomes who has the most money. You do need some guidelines to create competition based on talent rather than just checkbooks. That's why every form of racing has different classes and rules. I'm not saying all the rules are perfect, far from that. What I'm trying to point out is that based off this first GP, it looks like the changes this season (rules, platform changes, and driver swaps) have made for a much more competitive field. I think Hulkenburg is one of the most talented drivers in F1, was really hoping he'd get a spot in one of the "top" teams so that he had a better shot at podium finished. However, from what I've seen I truly believe he can do very well and be more competitive in a Force India car than he would've been able to in previous seasons.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > brandondrums
03/24/2014 at 21:47

I'm just saying they made the rule for now and it needs to be dealt with for now. We've obviously seen the negative backlash and hopefully the rule will be reviewed and revised in time. (Admittedly: I was a bit high, and am now, on pain meds. Broke my femur two weeks ago and have been in more than a fair bit of pain lol. Still pretty clear headed though.)

gearjammr > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
03/25/2014 at 07:04

Honda yeah, but Im from Murica'.... Im excited to see if we get that Haas Racing F1 team based in North Carolina. I hope some good American drivers get a chance at the sport. Scott Speed wasnt the best entry we could have put up. I dont understand the underlying bias F1 has against Americans. It would be great to change that.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > gearjammr
03/25/2014 at 11:58

I agree with this 100%. I would love to see an American land an F1 drive. I really hope Haas Racing makes it in, they seem like they've got the right vision and will do what they need to do to properly bring America back into F1 racing. I still want to see more Japanese manufacturers back in F1, particularly Toyota. (I'm a diehard Toyota fan) haha. But I really want to see F1 catch on more in the U.S. and I know the best way for that to happen is to have an American team, particularly one with a NASCAR background, get into it.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > LeoParente
03/25/2014 at 19:03

What I still cant figure out is if the FIA knew of the sensor during practice, (and qualifying ?) why was his qualifying even valid? Why was he not put at the back of the grid behind Maldonado?

Rich J > willkinton247
03/25/2014 at 21:11

Or inexperience. Apparently the race control guys didn't think they had any options for yellows other than the 3-pit-lap monster.

We had a saying at my last job "Follow the process, and we'll live with the results.". Make the process clear, straightforward, and back it up. That will build confidence with the teams - who seem more concerned about uncertainty that anything else.