Would an affordable, compact RWD sedan fail in America?

"Chappie" (johngaffney) 03/12/2014 at 10:00 • Filed to: RWD, sedan, america

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Right now, the most affordable RWD sedan in America (according to my extensive research) is the base model Dodge Charger. Not exactly economical, sporty (it's a muscle car, calm down Charger-bro's) or ahem... fun sized. But what if someone, someone with huge and fantastic balls of righteousness, brought a affordable ,compact RWD sedan to market? Would it succeed?

First, the parameters. It would have to be in the under $20k price range. $15-$20k for a base model, price goes up with options. I'd like to hope a manual option would be offered, but lets forget that for a minute and just assume that there is an option for a DSG tranny and the acronym CVT never gets mentioned.

It's selling points? Small, fun, sporty car for the everyman who can't afford a BMW or Cadillac, but wants to have the kind of fun that comes with owning one of those cars. Let us assume that the styling is executed well too.

So, given this scenario, could such a car be success? if so, why has it not happened yet? If not, why not? Let's try to get beyond the obvious of "FWD is more efficient" etc. We all know you can still build an economic, light RWD car.

Brian Silvestro > Chappie 03/12/2014 at 10:05

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All you have to do is put the engine in the back as well!

Renault knows the game!

EL_ULY > Chappie 03/12/2014 at 10:08

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Not just America

Straightsix9904 > Chappie 03/12/2014 at 10:12

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I'm sorry, but the under $20k specialized car is gone. The cheapest you will ever see a specialized car is a BRZ, add a couple grand to the purchase price and you have 4 doors.

N/A POWAAAHH > Chappie 03/12/2014 at 10:12

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I think it could work. Take a Yaris or Aygo (sedan versions of course), and throw them on a RWD chassis with 160 base HP. Stripper models with only radios, air bags, and gauges. 6 speed, with a factory rear sway, and you'd have a very fun car.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Chappie 03/12/2014 at 10:16

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A) 95% of all new cars bought are bought by people who know jack about RWD vs. FWD. So if you used RWD as your main selling point, you're advertising to the few enthusiasts who actually have the finances to buy a new car. This means that....

B) The car needs a hook besides being sporty. Some sort of gimmick or tech or styling that sets it apart from the wave of other compacts. Without one, you're sunk.

C) You NEED this car to have a decent volume output or else you won't be able to compete on price. 15-20k? HA! Have fun with that. It costs WAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYY more in engineering than you think

The last car to be what you describe is the RX-8. Built off a miata chassis and still relatively affordable while also being fun to drive. It was rotary powered for a "hook" to get people's attention and in general was a fun sports sedan for under 30k. This is my thinking here - 15k is laughably cheap. Even if you manage to make the economics of a unique RWD chassis work at that price point, it will be a pile of junk. 20k is doable, but then you need to expect sales of no more than 20-25k a year in America since you'd have a spartan yet functional interior. That gives the car a very limited set of buyers. And even if it is RWD, you'd still be competing against hot hatches. So here's the million dollar question - Will it be that much more fun to drive than the hot hatches despite being less practical AND be close enough in fun to a miata or other compact, 2+2 coupe so that the extra practicality doesn't come at a price.

philipilihp > Chappie 03/12/2014 at 10:16

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I am now dreaming of a RWD Mazda3. Thanks a LOT!

jariten1781 > Chappie 03/12/2014 at 10:20

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Nope...It would be less efficient, have less interior space, and be 'worse in the snow'. Those are kind of the only priorities for buyers in the sub-20k sedan market. There's a reason they all died off decades ago.

I would like one though.

Party-vi > Chappie 03/12/2014 at 10:21

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An affordable compact RWD car doesn't make any sense from a business perspective.

It's compact, so space is at a premium. With RWD you need a longitudinal engine (longer hood, fenders, less cabin room), transmission tunnel (less cabin room, less passenger room in the rear), and you need a rear differential and half-shafts to each wheel (less trunk space, fewer options for a spare tire). More room is needed in the engine compartment and this room is "stolen" from the interior. I'll take a roomy interior and FWD over a cramped space and RWD, especially considering that I will never notice the difference in drive wheels on my commute to work. That's another point; no one gives a shit where the drive wheels are located on a car unless they want AWD. Every single Camry/Corolla/Accord/Civic buyer doesn't care. Every Hyundai buyer (except the Genesis people) doesn't care. Why would you go through the effort to build a compact RWD sedan for people who won't notice it's even for sale or why it's so special?

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 03/12/2014 at 10:27

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This is well reasoned and completely valid.

crowmolly > Chappie 03/12/2014 at 10:28

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Well, RWD means rear axle, more complex suspension, longitudinal engine and a forced driveshaft tunnel at the very least. So more $ to build.

Couple that with AWD being a huge trend in the market right now because of "snow capability" and I don't think it would sell enough to make enough for the parent company.

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > Brian Silvestro 03/12/2014 at 10:29

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mmm, engine in the back, yes, works great for little cars (3-door hatches, MR2s, not so well for sedans :/

Party-vi > Chappie 03/12/2014 at 10:30

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WAIT I FORGOT ABOUT KEI CARS!!! They were tiny and cheap!

Let's see, the Suzuki Cappuccino was manufactured from 1991 to 1997. Oh. Didn't work. Hmm how about the Honda Beat, designed by Pininfarina? Oh, 1991 to 1996. Well how about the Autozam AZ-1 with a mid-engine? Ah, I see, 1992-1995.

Even though they were only sold in Japan, each of these tiny RWD kei cars died after a handful of production years. The Japanese market wasn't enough to keep them going, and those guys had GT-Rs and RX-7s! I doubt a cheap (sub-$20k) RWD sedan is possible in the US.

Brian Silvestro > JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t 03/12/2014 at 10:32

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Why wouldn't it?

RazoE > Chappie 03/12/2014 at 10:32

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RWD, manual, sporty. This is why I chose an IS300.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > N/A POWAAAHH 03/12/2014 at 10:33

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Question - "throw them on a RWD chassis" implies they have one to put them on. Where are they going to come up with the hundreds of millions of dollars to make a chassis to make a car that will barely sell?

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Brian Silvestro 03/12/2014 at 10:35

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Fiat did it before it was cool (puts on hipster shades and drives off)

Brian Silvestro > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 03/12/2014 at 10:36

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VELOCITY STACKS

willkinton247 > Party-vi 03/12/2014 at 10:36

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There's also the people that think RWD means you'll potentially go wildly out of control at any minute.

When I bought my Jetta, my friends mom said, "you'll really like the security of that front wheel drive"

Jayhawk Jake > Brian Silvestro 03/12/2014 at 10:40

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That's the only way I see it happening, and by that I also mean it's never going to happen.

Brian Silvestro > Jayhawk Jake 03/12/2014 at 10:42

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Party-vi > willkinton247 03/12/2014 at 10:43

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"How about the security of knowing car control and how to drive?" said Willkinton247 as he torque-steered out of the driveway, flipping the double-bird as smoke poured from the Jetta's front wheels.

davedave1111 > willkinton247 03/12/2014 at 10:47

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It's actually a fair point given that most people don't understand anything about cars. To us, it's entirely predictable: stomp on the gas mid-corner, and out steps the tail. If you know nothing about cars, and don't understand why it happens, it's unpredictable - and you can imagine how terrifying it would be to have a car that 'randomly'/'unpredictably' breaks loose in corners.

N/A POWAAAHH > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 03/12/2014 at 10:49

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Backwards camry chassis. It's basically a Lotus now..

BigBlock440 > Chappie 03/12/2014 at 10:57

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There are rumors of the next Avenger being RWD...

therevengeofthesaab (really likes pre-2005 hondas right now) > Chappie 03/12/2014 at 11:08

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Damnnit, most people will just buy a old BMW.....

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > Brian Silvestro 03/12/2014 at 11:14

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weight balance is the big one. a good frunk will settle the argument about the engine living where the trunk would be, but when you push it back there to make room for the rear seats you end up with a pendulum out back... this is a little more manageable in short wheelbase vehicles as mass is more easily centralized, but it gets very tricky in a hurry... there IS a reason darts are heavy in the front and light in the rear, and it isn't just because the fletches weigh less than the point.

Tatra tried to combat this problem by using a very light engine with high speciffic output (small displacement air-cooled hemi-head v8, it's a beautiful little engine BTW...)

but even then the handling was... exciting.

Brian Silvestro > JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t 03/12/2014 at 11:15

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Well that's...disappointing. I'm still gonna get a Fiesta ST by the way.

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > Brian Silvestro 03/12/2014 at 11:18

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You won't be disapointed unless high-quality soft-touch interior materials, rear-seat legroom and cushy ride quality are top on your list of needs ;) (This is NO WAY a complaint! I FUCKING LOVE my FieSTa. It is exactly what it was meant to be; cheap and awesome.)

Chappie > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 03/12/2014 at 12:23

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I think these are all fair points, but you wouldn't market it as "rwd" but rather bmw sportiness without a bmw price.

Let's say you can make something at the 22k price range. It's cheap but not über cheap. Essentially it's challenging up model hot hatches and the fwd sedan market.

And when I say compact, I'm not talking about fiesta-sized. An is300 was chosen partially because in today's market, it would be more classified as a compact than a mid sized sedan. If you built something today at about that size with a 2l turbo'd engine and kept it pretty minimal, sort of like how you see the interior of a new Jetta built, I feel like it could work with the right marketing. But I don't know enough of the engineering side to know that it's a viable possibility.

I think one thing we do in the car business now (which reflects wha we do in most other businesses, I suppose) is go for the low hanging fruit. While that's where the easy money is, the lack of originality leads to things getting stale quickly.

If the Subaru twins have proven anything it's that you can be successful doing something different. A modern sports sedan at an affordable price is something very different here in America.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Chappie 03/12/2014 at 12:51

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BMW "sportiness" was always teamed with "luxury". Or at least, a much higher level of interior components and quality. So it's "kinda sorta like how an old BMW drove but nowhere near as nice inside" for "less than a 1-series".

I know you were talking about compact-midsized sedan, not subcompact, but the fact remains a GTI will probably have more interior room, as would a Focus ST, MS3, or even a GLI. I think you'd end up running into the same problem that the toyobarus WILL run into if they haven't already - you sold to the early adopters......now what? Those twins have proven very little so far as they were in development for a very long time and neither company seems to know what to do with them now. I'd hardly call them a "success" with only about 2 years of sales.

"Modern sports sedan" is meaningless. As is "affordable price". The suzuki kizashi is what you want besides the fact that it's FWD. Spartan interior, simple yet efficient motor, great chassis and balance, good suspension. Guess what? It was a dud. Pontiac G8 - sub 30k RWD family sports sedan. Sales were half of expectations.

And I'll tell you the #1 reason why such a low price point is not what any automaker wants to get into for an enthusiast focused car - the used market. For all the e-drooling people on this site do, when it is their money (IF they can get the money) they usually buy on the used market. If this hypothetical sedan came out last year, for 23k I can get a brand new RWD sedan that has a crappy interior, no toys, and little power........Or I can snag a 2-year old C-class with only 20k miles or fewer with a 6-speed manual, the basic yet well built benz toys, and the detuned V6 that is assembled with granite and depleted uranium. Maybe it isn't "as sporty as" the hypothetical sedan but I can guarantee you I'd rock the benz if given the choice. Or a used 3-series. Or a used G8. Or get a used kizashi for dirt cheap. Or even get a new mustang.

There's your problem with this idea - your odds of success are very low and it is for a very thin slice of pie. For all of the effort you put into it, you're most likely going to fail and fail in a very expensive and dramatic way.

Brian Silvestro > JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t 03/12/2014 at 12:56

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It's a good thing I couldn't care less about those things in that segment for that price!

PardonMyFlemish16 > Chappie 03/13/2014 at 09:50

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Yes

Chaos-cascade > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 03/14/2014 at 16:06

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Chaos-cascade > Chappie 03/14/2014 at 16:08

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Luke Austin > Party-vi 03/16/2015 at 22:52

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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cf04Do…

Deliwoot > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 11/13/2016 at 02:19

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Sub-$30k my ass for the G8. Dealers were known to mark them up.

Deliwoot > RazoE 11/13/2016 at 02:20

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I would be dailying this right now if the SportCross version came with the 6-speed and got better gas mileage. Seriously, how the hell does the IS300 get below 20 in the city?

RazoE > Deliwoot 11/14/2016 at 09:32

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Because it’s heavy and under-powered. The IS300 only came with a 5-speed manual (which essentially came off a 1981 Celica) or automatic. 6-speed manuals were only for the IS200 and Altezza RS200s, which we didn’t get. =(