When Your Brand New Car Gets a Rebuilt Engine

"SteveLehto" (stevelehto)
10/09/2014 at 13:00 • Filed to: None

You buy a brand new car and on the drive home the engine explodes because of a manufacturing defect. The manufacturer will probably fix it by replacing it with a rebuilt engine. And that's perfectly legal.

In 23 years of handling !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , I have seen virtually every possible automotive breakdown occur to new cars purchased by my clients. Engines explode on the way home from the dealership. Transmissions come apart within days of purchase. Countless other problems have caused breakdowns shortly after delivery. The car goes back to the dealer and the dealer assures the consumer repairs will be performed under warranty.

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Based on the number of phone calls I get, I am certain many people are unaware their warranties do not guarantee them a "New" engine or a "New" transmission in the above scenarios. Most new car warranties today promise that the defect which resulted in the failure will be remedied with a repair or replacement of the defective part – at the discretion of the manufacturer. And the replacement part might be a rebuilt or "remanufactured" one. See excerpts of the Honda, Volvo and Mercedes Benz warranties below. I have more but they all say pretty much the same thing.

This concept does not sit well with many consumers. It feels as if their new car is getting a used engine. To many people, this conjures the image of junkyard parts being put into a new car. However, this is not the case.

Factories take major components which have failed - engines, transmissions etc - tear them down and rebuild them. With engines, if the blocks are undamaged, they rebuild them and replace all of the internal moving parts. Parts like alternators and pulleys are reused if they pass inspection. The net result is a factory-assembled engine which will still be covered by the new car warranty. And there is an upside to this: Some auto parts like engine blocks and differential housings actually get "seasoned" with use.

Metal expands and contracts as it goes through the heating and cooling process, and this can be quite pronounced with larger parts like engine blocks and differential housings, especially when they are brand new. After a period of time, the metal will "settle down" and the clearances will become more stable. This is one of the reasons that manufacturers ask you to be mellow with your driving for the first thousand miles or so – the so called, "break in" period.

A seasoned block, in some respects, is preferable to a brand new, unseasoned one. And the same is true for a differential housing. If you had the choice of someone rebuilding the rear-end in your car with a new housing versus them putting in a remanufactured one with a seasoned housing, take the remanufactured one.

There is also a small chance, if the failure occurs early in the product cycle, a new engine or transmission might actually be used. To "seed" the pipeline of remanufactured parts, manufacturers often set aside a few brand new parts. They have to: how else would they fulfill the need for replacement engines before any have had the chance to fail and be rebuilt?

I have spoken to people who demanded a new engine and threatened to sue if they did not get one. Regardless of how you feel about not getting a "New" engine or transmission, there is no legal basis to demand one. The warranty does not obligate them to give you one. Go read your Owner's Manual now. You will find the words "remanufactured" or "rebuilt" used in conjunction with the parts you are entitled to in the case of a major breakdown.

Some people have suggested they wanted their failed engine or transmission repaired rather than replaced. If a major component in your new car has failed in such a way that the manufacturer suggests it needs replacement we can assume the failure was catastrophic. Manufacturers use varying metrics to determine the point at which an engine or transmission is shot but trust me: You're better off with the remanufactured engine or transmission than one which was rebuilt by a dealer. No offense to the dealer technicians in the audience but think about the comparison. Somewhere, the manufacturer has a facility where they are remanufacturing these components on an assembly line day in and day out. The dealership mechanics do not see catastrophic failures like yours on a daily basis. I'd liken this to asking you if you want your heart surgery performed by your family physician who you have been seeing for 20 years or by the heart surgeon you have never met who does a dozen surgeries a week of the type you need?

I know that the above is not ideal but it is the bargain you agree to when you buy a new car. Just keep in mind that it's probably not as bad as it sounds at first. Chalk it up to bad luck and move on. Odds are it won't happen again.

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Photo Courtesy of 1Futurecars.com.

Steve Lehto is a writer and attorney and has been practicing consumer protection and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! for 23 years. He taught Consumer Protection at the University of Detroit Mercy School of Law for ten years and wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . He also wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

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DISCUSSION (100)

jariten1781 > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 13:09

If a major component in your new car has failed in such a way that the manufacturer suggests it needs replacement we can assume the failure was catastrophic.

There's a common exception to this. On early production the manufacturer will often replace non-catastrophic failures rather than repair so they can send it back to engineering for detailed failure analysis. Regardless, what they replace it with will more than likely be as good or better than what was in there previously.

kaheff (L20E) > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 13:10

I think this shouldn't surprise anyone. Two points. First, the second you leave the dealership you drive a used car. Second, an easy thought experiment. Under supplementary performance (don't know whether this is a thing under your law, it is under EU regulation..) the manufacturer can either repair the good or replace it (actually it's generally the consumers choice which method he chooses, but this shouldn't matter for our experiment). The good won't be new when the manufacturer repairs it. So why should one be entitled to a new engine or whatever when the manufacturer replaces the faulty part?

SteveLehto > jariten1781
10/09/2014 at 13:11

I've heard this but never seen what the official criteria is (and it must vary from MFR to MFR).

Thanks for the note.

SteveLehto > kaheff (L20E)
10/09/2014 at 13:13

And yet, it surprises many. I think what people are upset by is they do not understand that "rebuilt" is much better than "used," - and that is what people think of when they are told that their nearly-new car is going to get something "rebuilt" or "remanufactured" put into it.

I don't make this stuff up. This is a very common complaint I hear.

Thanks for the note.

Liam > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 13:14

If it comes with the same warrantee then I don't care. It's in the manufacturer's best interest to give me a better one than I had, so I don't keep costing them new engines. We had a Saturn Vue with the crap (aka problematic) CVT transmission. When it died the first time we had a reman'd GM built box put in that came with a warrantee. When that failed in a few months they put another reman'd one in. When that failed in 34 days they put another reman'd one in.... I was glad it wasn't the dealership trying to fix the issue.

We traded the car while transmission #4 was still working. Traded because we didn't want to sell it privately - we figured a dealer could have that karma, as they know what they are getting. Or so they always tell us punters :-).

In another market I always get remanufactured Apple (and Dell/IBM etc). Apple especially sells current models, remanufactured with any in process fixes applied with exactly the same warrantee as I would get on a new one. As good or better product, exactly the same, less money.

thismightbemylastburner > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 13:15

If the engine in my new car failed, I'd want a NEW one. Every car out there was once new, and was expected to be reliable. If the product is failing because tolerances aren't spec'd properly for 'virgin' material, then the manufacturing process and designs need to be examined. "Here, this one's already broken in" is not something a person shopping for a new car wants to hear.

SteveLehto > Liam
10/09/2014 at 13:15

You're a very patient consumer.

Thanks for the note.

SteveLehto > thismightbemylastburner
10/09/2014 at 13:17

And that is what most people think. Especially if the car is really young and the failure was spectacular. Think of engine parts in the oil pan etc. But, the warranty says no - "You get remanufactured parts."

Liam > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 13:21

We bought the Vue used - so the first failure was on us. The others were just getting to a point where we could move it on with the least financial pain we could manage.

jariten1781 > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 13:23

It's case by case. A couple I've ran into on my vehicles:

MK5 and MK6 GTIs were having intake manifolds pulled early. Lead to a TSB and a warranty extension to 10 years 120k for some parts.

Fiesta STs are having transmissions replaced for input shaft bearing failures rather than just swapping the bearing. No one knows where that's headed yet.

SteveLehto > Liam
10/09/2014 at 13:27

Don't you wonder how many times it failed on the previous owner?

SteveLehto > jariten1781
10/09/2014 at 13:28

The article is generally speaking about when a whole system or major component fails. "The Engine." "The transmission." etc. Parts fail and other parts attached to them fail or are damaged and so on.

Steve in Manhattan > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 13:36

This makes sense. I did not want to buy a Dyson vacuum because I think it solves a problem that doesn't exist. I lost that battle with my girlfriend (I lose them all, in fact). However, I said that instead of spending $500 on a new one, we spend $300 on a refurbished one, explaining that it had gone back to the factory because of initial problems, and they'd gone through it to make sure it was perfect. I actually won that skirmish.

What I did not tell her was that the Dyson picks up cat hair and dirt really well, much better than the old Samsung. I'm wrong a lot, so I decided to keep that to myself.

kaheff (L20E) > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 13:38

I am not surprised that people think that way. But if you consider it from a "value" perspective: Would you say that the value of a car with a remanufactured engine is diminished compared to a car that has an engine that was in the car from the beginning on? I mean, those are the two options you have to compare. You cannot compare a car with a used engine to a car with a new engine that has been dropped in. After all, you would be better of than without the engine failure.

SteveLehto > kaheff (L20E)
10/09/2014 at 13:43

There are all kinds of things that you cannot control. If the engine exploded and was replaced either way (reman OR new) the vehicle is probably worth slightly less than if it had the original engine with no problems. Kind of like getting bodywork done - no matter how good, the car is worth less than the one without the bodywork (all else being equal).

desertdog5051 > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 13:43

Interesting point you make. Years ago, I managed a business for a friend and we had a new F-700 Ford have trans problems. (Allison auto). He fought for over 6 weeks with Ford because they wanted to put a re-manufactured unit in the truck with full warranty. That truck made about a $1000 a day, 6 days a week. My argument to him was the income being lost each day and that they would fully warrant the trans. He got his "new" trans and the company lost many thousands of dollars in the process. Hmmm...

SteveLehto > desertdog5051
10/09/2014 at 13:45

That's an interesting one. Obviously, people can get emotional about their vehicles . . .

Thanks for the note.

amanaplanpanama > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 13:47

Great stuff as usual. Having read all/most of your articles, I imagine you riding around on a Segway scooter, as you've seen the worst of what the auto industry has to offer. Do you still enjoy automobiles on a personal level? For my own curiousity, are you more of a McParland man (ie: choose new) or a Tavarish man (ie: buy used)

kaheff (L20E) > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 13:48

I was wondering that. Is it the same with an engine failure? So theoretically, you would be entitled to damages for the value that has been lost after such an engine failure?

SteveLehto > amanaplanpanama
10/09/2014 at 13:52

I drive a Ford Explorer (which will be a story one day in and of itself) and have had three in a row. A brother of mine (the one who rebuilt the Hemi) worked at Ford for years and gets me A-Plan. I've owned new cars going back five or six cars now but I have nothing against new. I understand the tradeoffs and it's just a matter of what you are looking for.

On a side note: I have never ridden a Segway. Makes no sense to me. You can stand there and move around at a walking pace - which you could do if you wanted to by moving your legs? Not sure I get it.

Thanks for the note.

SteveLehto > kaheff (L20E)
10/09/2014 at 13:53

Under Michigan law (where I am an attorney) you are entitled to nothing more than the engine repair (replacement with new or reman). You get nothing for the devaluation (if any) of the car afterward. That is why some people get upset by this.

It's a "Porch-uh" > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 13:56

I just talked to a friend about this with his Passat. It's a 2014 with only a few thousand miles on it when the dash lit up and it went into limp mode. Brought it to the dealer, who told them they had never seen anything like this before (but didn't explain with "this" was) and had to call VW... in Germany. They told the dealer not to touch it (they also hadn't seen anything like "this" and wanted to do the autopsy) and they would overnight a "new" motor. I asked my friend if it was actually new or if it was a rebuild. He assumed it was new since it came from Germany, but didn't know for sure. Either way, he didn't care too much since it was a lease and under warranty the length of the lease, but I was curious as I'd heard of this happening and people getting mad.

SteveLehto > It's a "Porch-uh"
10/09/2014 at 14:00

I suspect that "new" in this instance was "remanufactured" but you never know. All of the people I have spoken to about this are at domestic manufacturers.

And it drives me crazy when people call it "Porsh."

amanaplanpanama > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 14:02

Lol fair enough. I actually rode one at a conference in Denver one time (awesome security guard) and it was kinda fun. I agree it's seemingly ridiculous, but it makes sense for a guy like that, who'd walk double digit miles a day on average making his rounds.

Looking forward to the Explorer story. My family has had their share of them and I have a mostly love, some hate relationship with them.

BigBlock440 > thismightbemylastburner
10/09/2014 at 14:13

So you'd want to risk a new one with that was built with the wrong process again?

thismightbemylastburner > BigBlock440
10/09/2014 at 14:26

Yes. If it fails again, it might be recall time and I would be further compensated. (Ideally)

Its a stubborn approach, but you just bought a new car for heaven's sake.

Liam > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 14:38

Yep. We'd owned a low mileage Vue much the same before, so skimped on the pre-purchase research. I think we got this one at about 80k miles, and people were having failures within the first couple of years of ownership we found out. So apparently we just lucked out on the first one we owned. I wouldn't be surprised if it was on the 3rd or 4th transmission when we got it based on what I've read.

Steve in Manhattan > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 14:40

Not quite so major, but at about 75K the trap oxidizer and turbo went south on my '87 300D (W124). It was undriveable. They had just started seeing this in higher mileage cars (the car was a bit more than 2 years old). The decision was quickly made that they had selected a bad mix of components, and they fixed it no charge. I can't imagine how many thousands it would have cost me.

txgenius > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 14:48

Remember that GM owners...........

sadfasdf > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 15:24

I can see being pissed if it's a ZR-1 or something (but the numbers don't match anymore!), but is there even any loss if it's a Nissan Versa?

SteveLehto > sadfasdf
10/09/2014 at 15:28

Ask the Versa owner! I tend to agree with how this goes down about 99% of the time but I have actually seen a client whose engine exploded the day he bought the car. I would think it is appropriate for the MFR to buy it back and replace the whole car. But they view it like any other warranty repair. How much faith will you have in your car after its major surgery, knowing it only made it a few miles the first time out?

Rich > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 15:37

Seriously? I have a friend that had a new 2013 Dodge Dart that basically blew up because the factory did not put oil in it and the dealer did not check it during their pre-customer delivery. After contacting an attorney Chrysler agreed to return his money...there is not way I would accept a used engine in a new car. I personally went through the lemon law back in 1997 on a Saturn vehicle because of a stalling issue that the dealer determined would require the heads to be replaced...I won the case...easily by filling out some paperwork and demanding my money back. Do yourself a favor...if you ever have a problem like this...go for a full refund...don't screw around with a replacement engine...you paid for new...get new.

Rich > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 15:37

SteveLehto > Rich
10/09/2014 at 15:42

This would probably depend heavily on what state you are in. In Michigan, the single failure would not qualify it for lemon status if the repair could be done within 25 days.

Thanks for the note.

The Gray Adder > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 15:42

I remember when my '88 Mercury Topaz blew an oil pump and took the engine down with it. The friendly people at the Lincoln-Mercury dealer where I took it rebuilt the engine in-house. The car was in their shop for several weeks, which was a big-time pain in the ass, and when it was all done, I got an invoice six pages long with an itemized list of everything that got replaced - and a bill for the sales tax. Sure would have liked to have gotten a remanufactured engine from Ford rather than have their monkeys...er...interns...er...newly licensed mechanics go to all that trouble. But no. The car ran fine after that, but still...

Car had 59,800 miles on it. Another month and I would have seriously been boned.

SteveLehto > The Gray Adder
10/09/2014 at 15:45

That's another issue I didn't have space for. The time it might take the local techs to tear the engine down, see what went wrong, determine if it can be fixed, order and get all the parts, and then reassemble. Even when they do everything perfectly, it will probably take longer than someone picking up the phone and saying, "Send us a motor."

Thanks for the note.

Future next gen S2000 owner > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 15:47

Similar but related in a way. I sold cars a few years ago and we had a smoking deal on a new F-150 Harley Davidson edition F-150. Supercharged, nice deep amethyst color. This "new" F150 was the finance managers vehicle from the dealership until he did something catastrophic to the motor at around 350-400 miles. Motor comes out a different motor goes in. Since it was the dealerships vehicle from the get go and had less than 500 miles on it, it could be legally sold as a new vehicle.

If someone could tell my why a truck was thrashed so bad to warrant pulling out that original motor and replacing it within 500 miles and still have it called new I would love to hear the explanation. In Hawaii, apparently this is okay.

I almost sold that truck, there was a nice profit to be made on it. Also, it wasn't a defect, the finance manager beat on that truck bad. Basically an open secret that it went back to Ford due to "manufacturing issues". Same guy also had an insurance fraud conviction for a different vehicle but that is another story.

StevenG > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 15:48

Which to me is something they should pay you for. You suffered a loss due to their mistake.

SteveLehto > Future next gen S2000 owner
10/09/2014 at 15:49

Wow. And those are the kinds of transactions I sometimes see from the other side. "I bought this truck and somehow found out it has a new motor . . . " Litigation ensues and - of course - Ford takes another bath.

Thanks for the note.

titsinmymitts > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 15:49

Does the title then change to a rebuilt title once the engine is replaced?

If so, then yes I'd be pretty upset as my car's value just dropped by the thousands.

SteveLehto > StevenG
10/09/2014 at 15:50

I agree. But I don't get to write the laws. I just read 'em and do the best I can.

SteveLehto > titsinmymitts
10/09/2014 at 15:51

No, a rebuilt title is when the car itself is wrecked, deemed totaled, and then someone rebuilds the car. (The standards on that also vary from state to state but the key is - it is the car that is rebuilt, not a single component.)

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > It's a "Porch-uh"
10/09/2014 at 15:52

Was this a TDI by any chance?

kaheff (L20E) > sadfasdf
10/09/2014 at 15:53

It's not a loss you can point at like a scratch or otherwise. It's straight down to the fact that the market won't pay the same price as for a car without an engine swap.

Future next gen S2000 owner > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 15:54

Well, I did tell the customer it had a new motor. I explained that as part of the discount relative to the other Harley Davidson editions. They seemed okay with it. I felt bad trying to sell that truck to them but they knew as much as I did about it and they wanted it really bad. But credit was terrible, no down payment, needed a cosigner. It was way above what they should have been considering. That was their choice though, I wasn't there as a financial advisor.

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 15:56

Who wants to take a shot at the over/under % for Hellcat Challenger/Charger engine replacements within, say, the first six months?

StevenG > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 15:57

Michigan, which I know about only because of your articles, seems to be a terrible state for consumer protection.

StevenG > sadfasdf
10/09/2014 at 15:58

Probably something, even if it is $1 he should be entitled to that.

titsinmymitts > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 15:58

Ah, okay. I was misinformed.

Thanks!

SirNik84 > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 15:59

This reminds me of an ad for the junk yard that use to play on the radio when I was a kid. It went something like "Why buy parts at a junk yard? Because the car your driving is made of used parts." And you know, that's the truth!

tsmit > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 16:00

I bought a new car once and only once, 2011 kia soul, around 10k miles the engine shat itself all over the road, chunks of metal, oil, the whole 9 yards. Know it was bad luck but made me lose faith in the brand and dislike the car, all my other cars have been used, way i see it let someone else deal with breaking in the engine and get all those new car issues resolved, i'll grab it after it's thoroughly tested and at a much cheaper price.

Ltd783 > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 16:03

I think I mentioned previously when my brother grenaded the engine in his car with a missed downshift (bent some rods actually), and Hyundai gave him a new crate engine, rather than repair his engine. I think it was actually a re manufactured engine, but in this scenario at least, as a consumer, how is this not preferable to an in shop rebuild (if not a brand new engine)?

Would they rather a couple guys at the dealership who may/may not know exactly what they're doing tear apart your engine and replace parts, or swap it out whole for one that's had the actual manufacturer put their stamp of approval on the rebuild. This is at least an upside to cars being seen as a series of single, massive systems by the manufacturer, instead of parts (at least while they're under warranty and you're not paying). I can't imagine if some dealership employees were tasked with repairing a nav system. Just yank the whole thing out and start over...

maspeir > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 16:04

I work for a company that remanufactures transmissions. While I cannot go into all of the processes involved, the detail required by the manufacturers is extreme. The cost of the tooling required would put an automotive shop out of business.

We strip the transmissions down to the most basic parts. All sub-parts are disassembled to their basic components. Everything is cleaned and inspected and any piece that does not meet the manufacturer's specs is replaced. Any component that is designed to wear, like a seal, is replaced regardless. Assembly requires gauges for nearly every part; Gauges that cost upwards of $10,000 a piece. Reassembly takes place in stages, with each stage following a multi-step process from the manufacturer. After the transmission is rebuilt, it goes through a thorough testing process. What you end up with is basically the same as if it came directly from the manufacturer.

Remember that "new" doesn't always mean "good". If that were the case, your engine wouldn't have blown driving away from the dealership. ;)

maspeir > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 16:04

Remember that "new" doesn't always mean "good". If that were the case, your engine wouldn't have blown driving away from the dealership. ;)

guppysb > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 16:05

Once again, great article Steve. When it comes to mechanical internals or mechanical parts, I see no issue in receiving a remanufactured or rebuilt parts as long as it goes through a certain QA process. This is, however, very different from electronic internals. As a computer engineer, I can guarantee you that your remanufactured electronic will never work as properly as the original built from the factory. When human beings work on electronics, things like cold solder joints occur, or the internal replaced might not be of the same quality. Even if it passes the test tool, it'll never be as good as the original. If the said replacement is an ECU, count me out. I want a factory original. All it takes is a leaky capacitor to ruin your entire car. As much as we'd like, we humans will never have the precision of a nanometer fabrication (Ok, maybe in the future when we are all part of skynet).

schwartz > jariten1781
10/09/2014 at 16:06

Hmm I had a bearing go bad in the transmission on my FoST, luckily it was the support for one of the driveshafts and not the transmission.

JiveMasterT > jariten1781
10/09/2014 at 16:07

I had the input shaft bearing explode on my Eclipse GSX and trashed the transmission case. They had to junk the whole thing.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 16:13

I work at one of the largest automotive parts manufacturers in the world, most notable for their transmissions, and we do reman out of our facility, mostly for transmissions, axles, and torque converters. I can guarantee you that pretty much anyone would not be able to tell the difference between the finished product of a properly done reman and a brand new part.

sklooner > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 16:13

This makes complete sense, yet after an accident everybody seems to want new parts- I always worry there that they are pattern pieces and not OEM I also know major manufacturers sub out their rebuilding locally, at least here in Alberta

SteveLehto > Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom
10/09/2014 at 16:13

Better: How many of those claims will they deny outright?

SteveLehto > StevenG
10/09/2014 at 16:14

In many ways yes. There are much better states within which a consumer is treated.

ThePro > Future next gen S2000 owner
10/09/2014 at 16:15

In a similar case to yours, the other day I test drove a 2014 Focus, it had 200+ miles on the odometer, and it just didn't feel right. The transmission felt like it had years and years, the car wasn't even prepped as new and I believe it had stuff in the center armrest.

You would accelerate and the car would slowly start moving, like a kid who's afraid he's gonna stall a manual. Then after basically running away from the dealership (who weren't bad at all, and gave me a very tempting price, but this was the only car in the price range), I got into the Honda I drive and I basically screeched tires on the first two stop lights, because I was pressing the pedal like in the Focus. Something was seriously wrong with that Focus.

Just before anyone points this out to me, yes, I already test drove another Focus, so I knew this wasn't normal, and yes, I'm aware of the transmission issues, but nowhere did anyone say that their car barely moved from stop. I'm not sure if the transmission was rebuilt in-house or someone returned the vehicle, but I'm sure I wasn't driving that car home.

SteveLehto > tsmit
10/09/2014 at 16:16

I was always disturbed by the name KIA which is also short for Killed In Action.

sfltrack0000 > kaheff (L20E)
10/09/2014 at 16:16

A friend's new dodge had a bad battery and the dealer would not do anything about it. He fixed the problem with a test drive of a new car and a wrench.

theonetruetom > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 16:16

I used to do smartphone tech support for a major wireless carrier, and every so often we'd get people who were upset that the warranty replacement would be a remanufactured device. My answer was always something to this effect:

Mr./Mrs. customer, remanufactured phones are phones that have been taken in to the factory and completely repaired to new specifications. They may have already had problems at some point in their lifetime, but those problems have been worked out, and we thoroughly test our recertified devices to make sure there aren't any problems. You're actually getting a better deal in this case, because your new device will have gone through that testing, whereas the old device you had, hadn't, when you got it.

Usually worked pretty well. The odd 1 in 30 or 40 customers would take offense and threaten to sue us, but I'm sure there was warranty information like the MB and Volvo warranties in your post.

SteveLehto > maspeir
10/09/2014 at 16:17

Exactly! Thanks for the note.

SteveLehto > guppysb
10/09/2014 at 16:18

Interesting. I've seen several comments about buying reman computers. I had always felt that was a little iffier but I never really quite knew why. Thanks for the note.

talis1984 > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 16:18

A Few points, after reading through, and also some of the comments... As someone who enjoys restoring classic cars, I've always rebuilt the engine that was in the car (original or not) so I have no problem with rebuilt motor or trans from the OEM. It's "new" to me, so that's good enough.

It's good to hear that people who have had replacements have had good luck with them. I like how you made the point about heart surgery. One point I'd like to add, is that in most cars the engine is made on a regular assembly line, with mostly unskilled working placing, or bolting, or doing whatever that one or few tasks are before the line moves out of that station. A rebuilt *may* be handled by master techs the same way the GM performance engines are; one tech per engine from start to finish. It may also be on a line, but I would have to think that if they are taking it apart, finding the defect, testing, and replacing moving parts to make sure it doesn't come back again they would want a higher level tech working on it.

Also it's no shock to hear it affects the value of the car later on in resale. What I always wanted to know was how they got away with nonmatching VIN's / missing VIN's a lot of states read the VIN on the engine (now by OBDII readers) and check it against the VIN on the paper work and dash tag.

Mike D F > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 16:19

I suppose a lot of the acceptance of a remanufactured part would have to do with whether it was done by the manufacturer themselves or Jim-bob's machine shop down the street. Where it might not be done to manufacturers specs with their parts. I'm guessing that in many of the circumstances that require such an item to be installed there's likely an established factory system in place for refurbishment of said parts. Honestly, let's face it if you're muffler bearing blew up odds are good someone else's did.

SteveLehto > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
10/09/2014 at 16:19

And in some instances (with a seasoned housing) wouldn't you prefer the reman?

I am not condemning the practice, BTW. I am merely pointing it out. Just trying to clear some of the confusion on the issue.

Thanks for the note.

sfltrack0000 > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 16:20

In Michigan you have 72 hours to void a contract. Same day, no problem!

AZRCD > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 16:21

As you touched on, but didn't fully go into, there is a huge difference between an OEM remanufactured part (which is what you described) and a rebuilt part, especially an aftermarket rebuilt. When a part is remanufactured it is completely torn down and reassembled. When a part is rebuilt it is only torn down to the failure part / point and rebuilt from there. Usually manufactures don't have rebuilt parts, they have remanufactured parts (I'm a VW parts guy, we only have remanufactured,). It's typical in the aftermarket that you don't find remanufactured, but instead rebuilt which I think is where a lot of the negative connotations come from. As mentioned, it's not the same thing and also the new part used in the aftermarket are probably not OEM and may not have OEM quality. That is the final point, when your getting a reman from an OEM remember they are of course using their parts, that is to say all original etc.

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 16:21

The cynic in me says the majority will get the thumbs-down. That's the risk you take in buying a gonzo car like that I suppose.

SteveLehto > talis1984
10/09/2014 at 16:22

That area - who does the work - is one of concern. There are great techs out there and I've known some bench builders who I would trust with my life. But what about just picking the nearest dealer at random and hoping they have that guy working in the back?

SteveLehto > sfltrack0000
10/09/2014 at 16:22

Not true. I assume you are joking?

autojim > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 16:24

This is a useful one, Steve.

The reman program I'm most familiar with is Ford's (FAR or Ford Authorized Remanufactured). Ford contracts with a few companies to do reman on certain components or assemblies (engines, transmissions, alternators, final drive assemblies, etc.). In order to earn the FAR tag, those companies have to pass a quite strenuous quality audit, remanufactured parts are put through durability testing just like new parts, etc.

As you say, with a new program, often the replacement engine is going to be a new one as the reman pipeline isn't full (if it's a specialty/low-volume vehicle like a ZR-1 Corvette or a Mustang Cobra, there may not *be* a reman pipeline as the low volume doesn't justify it).

In the ::mumble:: years I've been involved in the auto business, from working at my family's repair shop to working as an engineer around Detroit, I've only rarely had difficulty with authorized-reman major assemblies from the automakers. In some cases, the reman shop is able to offer a *better* attention to detail than the OEM, due to lower production volume.

And in some cases, unique specs can be offered. An example: My F350 has the 7.3L diesel and a 4R100 transmission. Around 228k miles, the one-way clutch on the torque converter stator came apart and blew pieces of itself all through the transmission. As this was coming out of my pocket, I was looking at a well-regarded-by-the-PSD-community 3rd-party shop to rebuild, but the distance to the shop, the lead time, and the cost were pretty high. Did some checking and discovered that FAR had 2 specs available, a "same as production" diesel-spec 4R100, and a "heavy duty" diesel-spec 4R100 that incorporated the best bits of the diesel, Lightning, and UltraDuty off-road race transmission specs, and as a friend who was involved with that program and knew how I used my truck said, "You won't break this one. I tried to, and it just kept taking it until the boss said to stop spending money trying." Given that my friend, like me, thinks destructive testing is a great idea, I was sold. Got the HD version, replaced the trans cooler while we were at it, and the trans came with a 4-year, 100k mile warranty! It's got ~110k miles on it now and still drives like it was brand new.

So, yeah, a OEM-authorized reman unit as a warranty replacement? Aside from the "now the numbers don't match!" screaming from people who are thinking they're going to sell their 1-of-100,000-similar-units car at Barrett-Jackson in 30 years for Huge Money (News Flash: You're not. Even a lot of limited-volume vehicles are plateaued at or below the rate of inflation, and high-volume stuff just doesn't bring the dough ever), it's a very safe bet that it'll actually perform at least as good as, if not better, than a spanking-new unit from the OEM's production inventory.

SteveLehto > AZRCD
10/09/2014 at 16:24

This area (definitions) is funny because you will notice that one of the manufacturers above referred to these as rebuilt parts. Probably not helping their case by doing that.

Future next gen S2000 owner > ThePro
10/09/2014 at 16:24

And to think some people will buy a new car without test driving it first. Just crazy. I know you can order cars but I would assume taking it for a quick spin would be part of the delivery process before you take ownership.

SteveLehto > Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom
10/09/2014 at 16:24

I Concur.

SteveLehto > autojim
10/09/2014 at 16:25

Thanks for the note. Great information.

ScoobsMcGee > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 16:27

Alt thread title: The Joys of Being a Subaru Enthusiast

DMCVegas > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 16:29

I can second that with my own experience. I had this happen with a brand-new 1997 Hyundai Accent. After about 8 months of driving, I had problems shifting gears, and would sometimes need to double-clutch the car in order to shift. Of course in all fairness, I also learned to drive stick on this same car. Anyhow I called up the dealership, Ben Stepman Hyundai (in Henderson, - of course! ) scheduled a time to bring the car in for a test drive. The mechanics spent a couple of hours on the car and the Service Advisor told me that I apparently had worn out the synchro gears. They took so long because they were on the phone with Hyundai USA to ask how to proceed with this repair, and Hyundai ordered them to replace the entire transaxle rather than rebuild it. They would ship a replacement unit in, and would call me when it arrived to schedule a repair date.

Fast forward 3 months, I haven't heard a thing. I call back to the dealership. The Service Advisor was glad to hear from me. Turns out they had my contact number wrong. It was a FAX line, and even after sending faxes they had no response (another reason I'm thankful for email nowadays). Anyhow, the SA asked if I would hold after asking me about a good date to bring the car in. 10 minutes later he came back on the line and apologized stating that he had to coordinate some times for some reps to come out from Fountain Valley so that they could be present for the repair/swap.

The day came. Their shuttle only dropped-off customers rather than picked them up, so I opted to stay... almost 5 hours later, my car was ready. According to the SA a couple of engineers and some other people from Hyundai were present. They went over my car from bumper to bumper checking anything and everything they could in order see if there were any other mitigating circumstances that could have caused the premature failure. Incorrectly adjusted shift cables, bad hydraulics, etc. They found nothing, so they proceeded to swap out transaxles. From there he said that the unit would be taken back to Fountain Valley for a preliminary analysis,measurements, & testing, but eventually it would be broken down and shipped back to Korea for metallurgic analysis of the gears as well as whatever else the engineers needed to look. All this so the engineers could figure out what went wrong so they could prevent this from happening again in the future.

And people wonder how Hyundai rapidly advanced both their Quality Control and Engineering so quickly. That right there is a big part of how it all happened.

DMCVegas > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 16:31

Question for you: With extended warranties, I've heard the same thing that they can still use remanufactured parts such as alternators. But I've also heard that they can use non-OEM parts as well from 3rd party suppliers that don't meet specs. Any ideas on that?

ThePro > Future next gen S2000 owner
10/09/2014 at 16:31

Well, coming from Argentina, where I'm from, they just started with the test drive thing a few years ago, mostly because most cars were ordered, there wasn't such thing as a "Dealership Inventory" there until recently, mostly because dealerships saw that with huge inflation, they would buy a car when the MSRP was 90000 pesos, only to sell it two weeks later for 95000.

SteveLehto > DMCVegas
10/09/2014 at 16:32

Cool story. Thanks.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 16:34

Certainly. The points you made in your article were definitely right. It all goes back to the general public's lack of automotive knowledge.

SteveLehto > DMCVegas
10/09/2014 at 16:34

Depends entirely on the warranty. In most states (consult with a local attorney!) the extended warranty will contain the terms they live by. If that warranty allows for those kinds of swaps then that's what you get. I can imagine some third-party warranties saying that so they could save money. I can't imagine one from a manufacturer which would call for non-manufacturer parts.

SteveLehto > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow
10/09/2014 at 16:35

Thanks. I actually consulted two of my industry contacts before putting this one up to make sure I got all my facts straight. And it really is a matter of perception and education (ie., consumers just need to know more about this).

DMCVegas > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 16:36

Very interesting... I just was wondering that since not only was it something that I've heard, but when I bought my latest car back in April from a Ford dealer, the extended warranty option was NOT being offered by Ford but a 3rd party.

Thanks again!

VAXcat > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 16:37

What if it's an enthusiast class car, possibly with some collectors value - now you don't have an all-numbers matching car. Or do they stamp all the correct matching numbers when they do this?

yeah, that guy > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 16:37

My technical understanding of 'seasoning' from engineering school, and not mechanics is that seasoning is just like marinating a steak. Oil, which is high in carbon, slowly diffuses some of the carbon from the oil into the metal. This takes the steel, aluminum, or whatever surface material and hardens it. If you cut open an old connecting rod (steel) and take samples of the metal in the center of the rod it will be of a different composition than the metal on the surface. The beauty is the metal at the center maintains it ductility, while the outside that takes the contact is hardened and stiffer.

This is not technically true for aluminum parts (a block is probably okay...) because aluminum fatigues with every stress applied to it. It may be an infinitesimal amount of fatigue, but it is why they do not build bridges with aluminum, and instead use steel.

Old steel block? Awesome. Used aluminum connecting rods? Shit.

SteveLehto > DMCVegas
10/09/2014 at 16:38

Always check to see if one is available from Ford directly. Some dealers would rather sell the 3rd party warranties because the markup is higher.

Admiral Picard > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 16:38

And it drives me crazy when people call it "Porsh."

When someone says that to me I reply "never heard of it."

SteveLehto > VAXcat
10/09/2014 at 16:39

The warranty does not say they have to do that so they won't. Most cars it would not matter but I agree with you: What if you bought some high end supercar or a sports car you planned on keeping etc? This would devalue it noticeably.

Captain Daytrip > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 16:39

There has NEVER been a case when we would perform a warranty repair using an old part. All components are brand new, whatever the failed part or assembly was. The only time we use old or used parts is when those greedy extended warranty companies force us to and then screw us on labor.

SteveLehto > yeah, that guy
10/09/2014 at 16:40

Yes, my understanding is that it is primarily with the cast iron parts. Not so sure about the role oil plays in it though. I did a LITTLE research on this the other day and most sources simply talk about the affect of the heat cycles.

sfltrack0000 > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 16:41

Yes, that was a joke.

SteveLehto > Admiral Picard
10/09/2014 at 16:42

The funny thing is that it is a family name. It is one thing to mispronounce a word (supposably) but another to butcher someone's name. Especially the name of a great family!

DerW220 > SteveLehto
10/09/2014 at 16:42

This happened to someone I know who bought a new 2012 CR-V AWD. The transmission would whine in park, especially on a non-level surface. It was a fairly major annoyance and another problem with the shifting started to occur. Well, a couple days later after the thing has been in the shop, a call comes in from Honda engineers requesting that the transmission be removed and studied in depth at their facilities. So, at only around 6k miles the transmission was declared a failure and was replaced with a reman unit. Apparently the car has driven and shifted slower ever since. You'd think that with that ancient 5-speed auto of theirs that they'd actually get the manufacturing and the engineering tolerances perfected, right? I think many other people have had transmission issues with it as well. Honda does some crazy things to save a few pennies..

SteveLehto > Captain Daytrip
10/09/2014 at 16:43

Did I say that people used old parts or are you simply making a statement?