Are F1 drivers truly the best racers?

"Chairman Kaga" (mike-mckinnon)
08/20/2013 at 11:08 • Filed to: Formula 1

I was reading the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! in the new and improved Road & Track yesterday. A bit of writing really caught my eye. Not that the car was monsterballs. Or that Tony Stewart is a badass and a bit of a kook. No, it was this:

If his performance and character weren't enough to declare Stewart a kind of latter-day A. J. Foyt, there's also this: He'll race 115 times this year alone, and most of the time you'll never hear about it. In addition to a year's worth of NASCAR races—38 events over the longest season in professional sports—he'll more than double his track time in winged sprint cars and modifieds on small dirt and asphalt ovals.

This is no grab for attention: He enters lesser-known events under a pseudonym to avoid the circus. The guy's addicted. Ask him why he wants to drive so much, and he shrugs, as if to say, "That's a stupid question. I can race. I do. Who wouldn't?"

115 races in a year. Most under a pseudonym. The man's heart pumps ethanol.

On the BBC F1 page, I recently read that Fernando Alonso will spend more time in a simulator than actually in the cockpit of a Ferrari on a real-life racing circuit. He'll compete in a total of 19 races this season. And that's his year. By contract, he is not allowed to compete further. Kimi Raikkonen somehow ignores those provisions, but in the post-Robert Kubica realm, that's a standard driver's contract. Possibly the most highly regarded driver in the world only races 19 times in a year.

Now, do we view him like we would a thoroughbred racehorse, that by winning only a few, yet very important races we all must logically conclude he's the greatest?

It begs the question - is the most talented driver the best racer? Apples and oranges? And don't let your opinions of NASCAR and F1 taint the qualities of the driver (as we all know the most exciting racing is multi-classification sports car racing, anyway). But do we consider F1 "pilots" the best simply because they're in an F1 car? Should we?

DISCUSSION (44)

McMike > Chairman Kaga
08/20/2013 at 11:16

Apples and oranges?

Yeah, it really is. Who's the better runner? Sprinters or long distance runners?

andthelike > Chairman Kaga
08/20/2013 at 11:17

Lewis Hamilton swapped cars with tony Stewart and raced around a circuit. they both got a chance to race around in the NASCAR car, and the f1 car. In the end, I

think that Hamilton beat tony.

Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. > Chairman Kaga
08/20/2013 at 11:17

I've long considered Parnelli Jones one of the greatest simply because of the breadth of vehicles he was successful with. Anything you put him in he did great.

GasolineLollipop > Chairman Kaga
08/20/2013 at 11:19

Practice makes perfect.

dinobot666 > Chairman Kaga
08/20/2013 at 11:20

I'd say the best overall drivers are rally drivers. They race under virtually any kind of weather conditions on a course that's hardly ever the same with road conditions constantly changing.

Forgetful > Chairman Kaga
08/20/2013 at 11:21

To be fair, and I don't want to diminish oval racing, but a lot of lower level races are fairly short.

Multi-class racing is a band-aid solution for times when the economy can't support GT and prototype racing separately. It's a compromise that diminishes direct competition. It increases the level of risk.

I honestly think a lot of drivers don't like it and would rather race a field full of the same class. Of course the racing media hypes the 'exciting inter-class action', but I can speak from sim-racing experience when I say that usually when you're interacting with a car from another class in a way that would be exciting to the fans, as a driver you're usually none too happy about it. It's kind of like crashes. Great for the fans and TV, not so much for the drivers.

Some events should be MC, Le Mans, Sebring, Daytona, Spa, Nürburgring, but the glory days of prototype racing were the Group C days.

OtherBarry > Chairman Kaga
08/20/2013 at 11:21

No. I love F1 and think there are some great drivers racing, but I have seen amazing things in all sorts of cars. In their chosen field they are the best, but so are Jimmy Johnson, Sebastian Loeb, and John Force. All great drivers do well crossing over (Mario Andretti), but i don't think you will be seeing drivers branching out much anymore and thats sad. Not that IROC was the best, but a similar series would be great. I'm thinking road course (GT and formula cars), dirt oval, drag race, asphalt oval (left and right turns maybe), and rally cross rounds for a championship. Hold it once every 4 years opposite the summer olympics and lets see who the best really is.

GTCL > andthelike
08/20/2013 at 11:29

That was a flawed experiment though. It started raining part way through, so the drivers didn't get the same conditions as each other. It was very cool to see though. Also would have liked to see more than haut a couple laps in each.
And I'm a huge F1 fan, but it is amazin gto see what a rally driver can do in a racecar. They all do different things, so unless you see then all in the same format it is impossible to really compare.

Hoccy > Chairman Kaga
08/20/2013 at 11:31

There is only one way to find out..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_of_C…

McLarry > Chairman Kaga
08/20/2013 at 11:31

I don't think you can let the regulations imposed by the sport dictate the 'spirit' of the driver... If Fernando could spend more time in the actual car, he would, he's limited by the rules and so the next best thing is a simulator. Same with the restrictive contracts...Most F1 drivers would compete in other series as their schedule allows as evidenced by the fact that so many did before it was made a typical contract clause. I think it's very cool that Tony Stewart races under a pseudonym...It's clever, it's cool, it's fun.................in the end, it's a very extravagant luxury. He's got the money, the time, and the freedom to have a very expensive hobby. Good on him, but that doesn't make him a better racer in my book it makes him very lucky.

Kake Bake > Chairman Kaga
08/20/2013 at 11:31

I hate to be this guy, but Alonso will probably turn right more often in his 19-race season than Stewart will in his 115-race year. That and the forces on the driver are more varied and immediate in F1. The cars accelerate and decelerate more quickly and are more dangerous in a collision, so reaction times and spatial awareness are more important. You can't just Gran Turismo your way to the finish line by bumper cars-ing the other racers.

I base this on no empirical evidence rather than a personal bias and a cursory knowledge of the physical requirements for either profession.

Edit: Ha, wow. I guess I'm not the only armchair motorsport professor.

andthelike > GTCL
08/20/2013 at 11:32

I was only barley aware of the video, and did not know about the rain. what I did watch of it mentioned a similar experiment between Juan Pablo Montoya and another driver though.

ncasolowork2 > Chairman Kaga
08/20/2013 at 11:35

I think it is a ridiculous question. The absolute best in NASCAR might be capable of racing in F1 and visa versa, but the two skill sets are so completely different that it isn't a fair question. Honestly though Loeb is probably the best in the world right now. Hamilton, Alonso, and Vettel aren't far behind.

GTCL > andthelike
08/20/2013 at 11:40

Oh it was cool.…just sucked about the rain. Plus I think Tony had more ballast on board compared to Lewis, if you know what I mean.

magman007 > Chairman Kaga
08/20/2013 at 11:42

To be honest, I don't think so. I think Seb Loeb doesn't bother with f1 because he doesn't want to embarrass the whole field. Don't get me wrong, it takes a lot of talent to drive f1, talent I nor many people do not possess, that being said, lets look at F1 drivers who have left for other ventures, and lets look at their records. Montoya only fairs well on the road courses, many F1 drivers enter le Mans, and rarely do well (Loebs best finish was 2nd however), Kubica chopped his hand off rallying, and Kimis results were lackluster at best.

Im not saying rally drivers are the best out there, but in my mind, a driver who is successful in many if not all disciplines is the best driver out there. I like the point leo parente and others made on last weeks shake down, where in I would prefer to see more star drivers crossing discipline borders, so we can really see who has the most talent, and being able to follow one or a hand full of drivers across the board like the andrettis did. SO instead of having a favorite driver in one series, have a favorite driver in multiple series.

Eric Siedlecki > OtherBarry
08/20/2013 at 11:45

I think some actual rally stages need to be thrown in there for good measure, as well.

Eric Siedlecki > magman007
08/20/2013 at 11:48

The reason Loeb isn't in F1 has to do with F1 rules. Being as Loeb has focused the majority of his time on point-to-point racing, he hasn't raced enough closed circuits to qualify for his Super License.

TurboSloth > Chairman Kaga
08/20/2013 at 11:53

Apples and Oranges.

Honestly, when it comes to the styles of driving, there are so many that comes to mind (for me, its NASCAR/circuit racing, WRC, Open Formula Racing (F1, indy), GT touring cars, drifting, etcetc). I feel that if I had to give a title to "Best Racer on the Planet, Right Now " it would have to be the Iceman himself. Kimi is the best driver on the planet right now only because of his style of driving (doing WRC, Nascar, and F1, and being able to be great at all 3).

We can't just say "hey, f1 pilots are the best on the planets because f1" because then we'd be essentially be creating tiers on motorsport. We would be saying that F1 is much more superior than Formula Drift, WRC, NASCAR, Rallycross, ALMS, and other types of racing, because of 50 million dollar paychecks, advanced engineering, and sheer speed that f1 cars can reach. We would then ignore the central reason for having different racing series; unique fundamental principles in driving style.

TLDR: Don't judge a driver's talent based on the series of racing they participate in, but rather their consistency across multiple series. Being a master at 1 series makes you the best racer in said series, but being very good at multiple series makes you the best around.

TLDR2: Kimi is my hero. He is also #1 because heknowswhathesdoing across different styles of racing.

TLDR3: Someone should do an illegal substances check (like what they do on baseball players) on Tony Stewart. I'm pretty sure it should be illegal for his heart to be pumping ethanol.

Bakkster, touring car driver > Kake Bake
08/20/2013 at 11:55

Actually, the August NASCAR road race has more right turns than the August Grand Prix. And what if we compare number of left turns? ;)

Given how many of Smoke's races are in Sprint Cars, your talking of danger makes me think you're not aware of what we're talking about. These cars can actually have higher power:weight ratios than F1 cars (top cars make 900+ HP and weigh under 1400 lbs, about 50 lbs lighter than F1), have open wheels, less safety structure, and run on dirt making 'spatial awareness' much more important as the drivers deal with racing wheel to wheel while sideways on a bed of dirt that's different from what it was last lap.

Kinja'd!!!

And if you think that F1 cars are more dangerous, not only has Tony Stewart been put out for the season from a sprint car, there have been two fatalities just this season. The tracks and open wheels don't help. F1 cars are incredibly safe in an accident, whereas a sprint car almost invariably flips, rolls, and hits the wall or catch fencing. Being upside down in a formula car is rare, upside down in a sprint car is the norm.

Kinja'd!!!

magman007 > Eric Siedlecki
08/20/2013 at 11:56

Thats some bull shit! Guy can run le mans, pikes peak, and have the most successful career in WRC.... Im sticking with my original point, in that he and red bull dont want to embarass vettel.

Bakkster, touring car driver > Chairman Kaga
08/20/2013 at 12:15

Ditto on the below answers. It's like asking who's the best track and field athlete, without comparing them directly in something like the decathlon. Is the top sprinter the best athlete at the Olympics just because the 100m gets the most attention? What about the top marathon runner or high jumper?

F1 drivers are the top formula car drivers, but that doesn't make them the best in a stock car, touring car, or GT. Hell, it won't even make them the best in an IndyCar. And that's before you start looking at pay drivers and looking at the back of the field (do you really think Max Chilton who never is a better driver than Tony Stewart who has an IRL championship?).

IMO, cross-category drivers rank ahead of specialists. When you can succeed in stock cars, touring cars, open wheelers, and rally, then you're a true legend. Of course, that by definition disqualifies most F1 drivers nowadays. F1 drivers get the most glory, but they're not necessarily the best at anything but driving F1 cars really fast. I actually look to what an F1 driver does after his time in F1 comes to an end for the judgment of their greatness for actually driving cars. If they retire, they weren't really a racer, and racing cars was just a way to make money.

When F1 drivers leave and have a successful career in sports cars then I sit up and take notice. I would consider Jan Magnussen and Allan McNish better overall drivers than Michael Schumacher, despite the former only having scored a single point between them in F1. Schumacher is one of the all time greats, but only in Formula One, the others have proved themselves to be more well rounded. If Schumi were a 'real' racer, he would still be out on the track today wiping the floor with whatever competition he had.

Chairman Kaga > ncasolowork2
08/20/2013 at 12:23

But what I'm asking is more of a philosophical question. I'm not REALLY asking if Stewart or Alonso is the best. What I am trying to get at is the presumption that F1 drivers are the best drivers, and thus the best racers. I think river implies skills, but racer is more of a state of mind. It's kind of like asking who's the better musician, technical wizard Steve Vai, or seat of the pants Stevie Ray Vaughan? It's almost a matter of taste.

Chairman Kaga > McMike
08/20/2013 at 12:24

I'm just going to recycle my response to another poster...

Chairman Kaga > TurboSloth
08/20/2013 at 12:27

Just to drive a harder point into my original post, I was just getting into more of a philosophical frame of mind about the difference between driver's skill (aka The Best Driver) and heart (aka The Best Racer). It's like asking what's the better car, a McLaren P1 or a Ferrari F40?

TurboSloth > Chairman Kaga
08/20/2013 at 12:31

I feel that I could write an entire book on skill vs heart. Being a driver vs being a jalop. Tony might be less skilled than Alonso, but there's no doubt that he is a bigger jalop.

Chairman Kaga > Bakkster, touring car driver
08/20/2013 at 12:52

This is really what I was getting at with the original post.

I play music. Know a lot of musicians. Some of them are master technicians. They can tell you every tone in a G minor phrygian dim7 chord, and every accidental possible in the mode without turning it into a mixolydian. And they're good. Then I know guys who plug into their beat Les Paul into a Marshall and wail. They're good too. Who's better? Does it matter?

For my money, it's guys like Hendrix, who possess the knowledge of music theory, but also the heart of an artist, who are the true Greats with a capital G. Those guys don't come along very often.

It's also why I sort of consider driving an art, which is another philosophical discussion unto itself.

TrackRatMk1 > magman007
08/20/2013 at 13:23

Someone else mentioned Race of Champions, which is always a blast to watch online and has some of the best current drivers compete in multi-disciplinary racing. Loeb has the most ROC wins and even has several runner-up prizes. It's telling, even though it's not a fact-based way of determining most skilled drivers.

Understand that the OP was not opening a debate into skill, per say but more "racer mentality." But since we're already off topic, I think Loeb is probably one of the best at that too. His interview responses go like this:

"Are you happy with your run?"
-Loeb: "Well, it was perfect again. So yeah, pretty happy".

It just shows his utter confidence in everything he does. He comes off as a pompous Frenchman but his skills are virtually unparalleled. Also, he is French and the French are excellent at rallies of all sorts. Attitude pretty justified.

He also raced an Red Bull F1 car, and did phenomenally well his FIRST TIME. His interview is as always, pretty entertaining:
http://www.formula1.com/news/interview…

Senna_ > andthelike
08/20/2013 at 13:34

I was there, the conditions were wet/damp throughout. The F1 car was on wets and should have been on inters. It was beautiful and sunny 3 hours later, Tony Stewart offered to try again in the afternoon, Hamilton said no and left in a private jet. Who was the real racer? You could Tell Tony was like a kid in a candy store and Lewis was pissed and did not want to be there.

Best part was Coulthard hot lapping FAST in a street Vette.

F1 fan

OtherBarry > Eric Siedlecki
08/20/2013 at 13:51

Sounds good to me. Special stages here we come.

magman007 > TrackRatMk1
08/20/2013 at 13:56

Well said.

I completely forgot ROC, my problem with ROC is they are never racing against eachother, never in a pack, never in direct competition past a lap time. Plus, they always change the cars year to year, which keeps it fresh, but I would rather some unity.

As much as I don't watch ESPN, I have taken a liking to the GRC idea. Its great to see personalities from other racing series duking it out against eachother in a mish mash of high powered hot hatches. Now how fun would it be to watch Loeb, Kimi, Vettel, Hamilton, button, alonso, stewart, burton, gordon, McNish, Kirstensen, Kanaan, etc all duking it out in WTCC? Or GT3 one weekend, WRC the next?

Kake Bake > Bakkster, touring car driver
08/20/2013 at 14:56

Man, didn't you read the last two sentences?

Bakkster, touring car driver > magman007
08/20/2013 at 16:04

Also part of the problem with asking who are the best racers, rather than the best drivers. How much proper 'racing' happens during an F1 race, compared to in sports cars, touring cars, or stock cars?

Bakkster, touring car driver > Kake Bake
08/20/2013 at 16:05

That's why I gave you the rest of the details ;)

Kake Bake > Bakkster, touring car driver
08/20/2013 at 18:12

Ah, I didn't want to learn something today!

How dare you try to broaden my perspective!

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > Chairman Kaga
08/20/2013 at 22:22

THere has never been a doubt in my mind that Smoke and Jimmie Johnson are two world-class drivers..... The former is maybe as athletic and fit as the latter but I'd rarely hesitate to bet on either

GhostZ > Chairman Kaga
08/20/2013 at 22:25

I think the generalities come from the demands.

The physical (both mechanically and in the body) and mental (again, both in design and driver's mind) demands of F1 are so absurdly high compared to Nascar. It seems as if most F1 drivers must be better since they have to deal with the high entry cost. This isn't necessarily the case though, because driving skill can be developed independent of money or position.

Do I think the average Nascar driver is better than the average F1 Driver? No, I can't say that.

Do I think the best Nascar drivers could be better than the best F1 Drivers? Hell yes.

The thing is, it doesn't matter if you race 300 times a year, or 3 times a year. Being the best means you are able to move that hunk of metal around a track faster than anyone else . The only standard of comparison you can make is what track and what hunk of metal . Making those divisions lets you find out who is fastest on those tracks with those hunks of metal but the comparison flies out the window if you change either of those.

fury413rb > Chairman Kaga
08/21/2013 at 06:25

technically dirt sprint cars are turning right... while the car goes left.... and how many times do F1 cars pull the front wheels off the ground?

overheated579 > Chairman Kaga
08/21/2013 at 07:56

I see what your asking now, not who is the most talented but the person who loves racing the most. I think Tony Stewert would be the best "racer". The fact the man does his already long season and then when he's done he enters smaller races under pseudonames is amazing. Racing is his life and he shows it. I don't know if I would call him the best driver but then again I'm not a NASCAR guy but no one can deny the fact he has a ton of talent
P.S- to the people arguing who are better drivers NASCAR or F1 that's stupid, both sports have amazingly talented drivers but the sports are different I'm sure if you took the best drivers from each sport and made them trade places they would do equally as we'll in each others sports

Monsterajr > Chairman Kaga
08/21/2013 at 08:07

I'd look back in history to guys like Mario Andretti and John Surtees (plus a bunch other's I can't remember) that used to race in just about anything with a motor. Mario started in dirt track, raced Indy, Sprint cars, Formula 1, LeMans, Sports Cars, and I even think NASCAR. Surtees raced motorcycles and F1.

Jump to today and watch Race of Champions where you'll see just how rounded some of the F1 racers really are or aren't. I'll say that the racers (any form) that we are usually drawn to are the most talented. I would imagine you put Fernando Alonso, Tony Stewart, Sebastian Loeb, Valentino Rossi, Boris Said in a goKart and they'll give each other an equal run for their money. Lesser pilots may do well in specific types of racing but the best can move relatively effortlessly between them.

I do wish they would reprise the IROC series which pitted drivers from all types of racing in equally matched cars against each other over the course of a couple races. It was great fun to watch.

Today, you only have to look at Stewart, Montoya, Raikonnen, Kubica as modern examples of the likes of Andretti as pilots who can jump from one form or racing into another. Even Schumacher jumped to motorcycles (though did it too late in the game for him not to shit his pants).

So F1 Pilots are at the pinnacle of motorsports but it doesn't mean they are the pinnacle of racers IMHO.

brandondrums > dinobot666
08/21/2013 at 09:42

Bingo, Rally drivers are the best.

fury413rb > McMike
08/22/2013 at 03:30

Silver crown champ cars run 100 mile races

Matt Urban > Forgetful
08/23/2013 at 17:09

I like multi class racing. IT gives craftier drivers more opportunities to outwit their opponents.

JDIGGS > Chairman Kaga
10/18/2014 at 06:54

Definitely not the best racers, maybe the fastest raw drivers?

Look at any f1 guy (who isn't 1 of the 3) who now races sports cars / prototype racing. They all say they wish they had made it to f1 a few years later. When they had common sense and had learned something.

Basically f1 drivers have the most raw talent but are terrible when it comes to the talents needed to say race 24hr lemans with multi class racing.

F1 drivers are taught to race in an unsustainable fashion using as little of their brain as possible, combined with a bunch of politico rules that handicap the fastest cars in racing.

ShadowCar > TurboSloth
10/02/2016 at 03:48

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