Formula SAE vintage days

"2BWise" (bnrracing) 08/19/2013 at 11:32 • Filed to: Formula SAE, Bearcat Motorsports, UC, FSAE, University of Cincinanti, Camden, G and J Kartway

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I'd imagine there are a lot of you out here who participated in some form in the Formula SAE series while in college. Thought some of you might appreciate what a group of alumni is doing with the old cars down in Cincinnati. There is a small group that restores, autocrosses, and hot laps a fairly large number of retired FSAE cars. They've currently got 8 cars, I believe, with essentially 6 of them in running condition. I was fortunate enough, as an alum, to get invited down to join them in hot lapping the local kart track, G and J Kartway, in Camden, OH.

http://bearcatfsae.blogspot.com/

After being out of one of these for so long it had to remember how tough these things were to drive. Being on the limit in any of these old cars is no easy task. Who else still runs these things on the regular?

Paul, Man of Mustangs > 2BWise 08/19/2013 at 11:37

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Makes me want to buy one off of a local university.

Joe_Limon > 2BWise 08/19/2013 at 11:41

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I would totally buy one of the ones I worked on... if not for a couple issues.

1. I am not rich

2. I am about 30lbs heavier then I was when I was on the team and I barely fit into the car then.

cardboardarmor > 2BWise 08/19/2013 at 12:24

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Makes me sad that the FSAE guys at my school never got their program off anything past the "Hey we're here and wouldn't this be cool?" phase of things.

They had a hard time of it drumming up support from the faculty/school and interest from the engineering student body being as how the balance of the people there were aeronautics folks, which never made much sense to me - aren't they two awesome things that go fast? You should be friends, not enemies!

Bergh223 > 2BWise 08/19/2013 at 12:28

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Good to see G&J Kartway getting a little press. Have turned many laps there myself, lots of passing opportunities in a kart. Love it.

davedave1111 > Joe_Limon 08/19/2013 at 12:29

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2 - sounds like an excellent diet-aid to me :)

Joe_Limon > davedave1111 08/19/2013 at 12:30

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Awe, but I'm finally at my ideal bmi lol.

DrJohannVegas > 2BWise 08/19/2013 at 12:40

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Old FSAE cars don't die, they just fade away in a cloud of burnout smoke.

(Or they get cannibalized for future cars.)

On a serious note, a number of my team's old cars have been rescued from life in a storage trailer by groups of alums who built them. It's great to see a small fleet of them at an event, and not all the teams have the resources to keep their history around internally. (Think Ferrari until recently. How many great Horses were lost because the old man was too cheap to save them?) Plus, there's nothing like showing up at an SCCA event and getting a PAX close to 1. Make the A-mod guys squirm.

Scootin159 > 2BWise 08/19/2013 at 12:42

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I've seriously considered campaigning an old FSAE car before, but there's a few hidden (and not so hidden) drawbacks:

Many universities won't let the old cars leave in one piece due to liability concerns. You might be able to get them to sell it to you disabled (i.e. missing the steering rack, like what they do with selling old F1 cars), but even then it's likely been scavenged for parts for the next year's car.

If you got one, and built it up to race, it would be excessively difficult to keep operational. Ever seen an FSAE car at an autocross? Ever see it finish all it's runs? The downside with a car engineered to the limit is that it's limits are easily overreached and then things WILL break.

Parts are generally all hand-built, so unless you have access to a machine shop, expect to pay through the nose to keep a parts supply up. And you will need parts (see above).

There's other classes that go faster cheaper. Sure top-level FSAE cars are hard to beat on pace, but a good F500 car can beat all but the best FSAE teams. The top F500 would've trophied in FSAE at the SCCA national championships. And then don't forget shifter karts - they're often quicker than FSAE and can even be wheel-to-wheel raced as well.

thescreensavers > 2BWise 08/19/2013 at 12:49

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Or in my Schools Case, they are stripped and used for parts and left to rot hah. Not having enough money and finally stripped our 2011 car for our 2013 car. No one wanted to strip this car more than me. It was sitting with perfectly usable parts. I was glad we started tearing into it.

2BWise > Scootin159 08/19/2013 at 12:50

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There's some paperwork that goes along with the purchases, but the big thing is that they've all gone to the same person/group. It has helped with getting approval to off load the old cars. Otherwise, they sit around and gather dust and take up shop space.

-Yes, things break, and then need repaired but the keeper has a gorgeous garage and the resources to be able to repair most if not all of the cars. The other upside being is that he car re-engineer the parts away from the minimal lifespan they were designed with and get more useable life out of the vehicle.

-I'm not so sure about the cheaper comment. Being as SAE cars only have a lifespan of one year there is little to no value to what remains. Besides parts that may break the running costs are pretty much the same as a 500.

WhiskeyGolf > 2BWise 08/19/2013 at 12:51

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Now that you're no longer in the competition with them, did you remove the restrictor? Those things get nutty when the engine goes to 11...

2BWise > WhiskeyGolf 08/19/2013 at 12:58

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We leave the restrictor in place. Basically, so they can run the same tune that they were built with. Saves a lot of headaches. Tuning these can be a pain especially since our alumni group doesn't have a dyno

Andrew Nier > Scootin159 08/19/2013 at 12:59

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Depends on how competitive you expect to be. The old one we had sitting around the shop when I was an undergrad was extremely simple and way overbuilt (and overweight). Only real problem it had was breaking shifter cables. It wasn't cutting edge even it's time, but it was properly quick and kind of a hoon-mobile (the suspension had almost no travel and it would drift at the drop of a hat). Would it win in Auto-X? Most likely not. Would it be fun? For certain.

Andrew Nier > Joe_Limon 08/19/2013 at 13:01

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My favorite in the shop was old #24. I went back recently and found I couldn't fit in the seat. :( I'm on a diet now. I will drive that car again, damn it!

SasquatchElvis > 2BWise 08/19/2013 at 13:01

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That's pretty incredible, and from my Alma Mater at that! Go Bearcats!

2BWise > Bergh223 08/19/2013 at 13:15

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Track is a blast! Fast, with some technical bits, and the new section on the back half of the track is so much fun. It's also easily the best deal in racing I've ever experience. $10 for an all day test session. The size is just about perfect for one of these cars too. Any idea what kind of lap times the shifter karts do around it? We've always thought that we're close to running similar lap times around here.

tromoly > WhiskeyGolf 08/19/2013 at 13:26

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Most people leave the restrictor in so they can run the SCCA FSAE Autocross class, which requires the cars to follow whatever year FSAE rulebook the car was built under. If they yanked the restrictor they would either have to add 400-500 pounds to run B-Mod, or run in the Experimental class, so leaving the restrictor in makes it easier to find a class.

atk09 > 2BWise 08/19/2013 at 13:52

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You should've seen the Baltic Open this year.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10…

Room13 > Joe_Limon 08/19/2013 at 14:09

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muscles are gross.

OneRotor > 2BWise 08/19/2013 at 14:19

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The one time I tried to drive the Michigan Tech FSAE car I was too tall. 6'4 stuffed into a car optimized for people 5'6-5'10 = I couldn't keep my feet off of both of the pedals. Plus I was a bit too wide in the shoulders. It was nutty fast, but I couldn't fathom driving one for more than 30 seconds.

Having said that, I've toyed with the idea of modifying a LoCost chassis to be a single seater with a 1000cc-1300cc 4cyl out of a Japanese sport bike. THAT would be a blast.

racingmaniac > 2BWise 08/19/2013 at 14:20

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For me there could be a few drawbacks on owning and running a legacy FSAE car. In school a lot of stuff are donated/discounted to students, and most of the stuff you buy(tires for one) are not out of pocket(sometimes they might be). Doing it spending your own money is a bit more costly....and a lot of time you just don't have the time to keep it running....

81_VR6 > 2BWise 08/19/2013 at 14:21

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I put effort in to protect our 2005 AWD FSAE car from being scavenged of parts. It's not the first AWD car, but it was significantly better designed and reliable. It has required a fair amount of rework to become operational again— mostly in the wiring and plumbing. It wouldn't have been possible to restore or maintain without a small machine/fabrication shop (mill, lathe, TIG welder minimum) which limits the type of person that could keep one going.

QADude > 2BWise 08/19/2013 at 14:50

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I went on a trip to Dubai, and went to Rochester Institute of Technology, where they have a satellite campus. My group was visiting the Dubai Silicon Oasis startup incubator, hub which was in the same building.

They showed off a Formula SAE car in their lobby that they built and raced. Pretty cool. I was the only person in my group who was even looking at it, perhaps because I'm a gear-head who loves race cars.

Scootin159 > 2BWise 08/19/2013 at 14:58

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Ha, just noticed your username.... so we meet again (seems we always entered into the same autocross/formula car type discussions back years ago on Rennlist).

I do know the resale value of SAE cars that come up is VERY low, but then again the ones I've seen for sale tend to be all so used up that you basically have to rebuild the whole thing ($$$$) anyways. There no doubt are many parts of the 500's and FSAE cars that are just catalog purchases, and range roughly the same prices (rod ends, etc).

I guess my bigger concern is the custom pieces that would require a CNC to rebuild (hubs & uprights) - but then again... I did buy a 500 that has all custom CNC'd suspension components anyways, so maybe that's not the best argument, lol.

Would be nice if you could just drop a stock 600 motor in there though, for both reliability and the added power bump... but you wouldn't have anywhere to run it if you did. Even AM in the SCCA wouldn't be an option without bolting on an obscene amount of lead (and likely increasing the wheelbase).

wzkool > WhiskeyGolf 08/19/2013 at 14:59

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A lot of teams use motorcycle engines (anything up to 600cc or so), but with the restrictors power's limited to about 80hp tops. What sort of hellish beast would you get if you managed to fit a nearly 200hp 1000cc superbike engine in such a car? Shouldn't be too hard: find some yob who crashed his crotch rocket and is selling the engine online for dirt cheap to pay for the medical bills, drop it in, then sell the FSAE approved restricted engine to a current team (whole or parts) for profit.

Scootin159 > QADude 08/19/2013 at 15:02

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I've raced against the RIT FSAE team several times - as it's an annual thing, they do vary in speed from year to year, but when they're having a good year they are very quick.

Scootin159 > QADude 08/19/2013 at 15:04

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I've raced against the RIT FSAE team several times - as it's an annual thing, they do vary in speed from year to year, but when they're having a good year they are very quick.

2BWise > racingmaniac 08/19/2013 at 15:42

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I agree with the time comment, but since there is no competition deadline and they're run just for fun it's not a big deal. Tires are still donated. I provide the front takeoffs from my Formula Continental to keep them supplied. At the rate they go thru tires (which is fairly slow) compared to my rate of consumption (a set a weekend) supply should not be an issue.

Fortner Industries > 2BWise 08/19/2013 at 16:15

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I worked on the SAE Baja car and we shared a shop with the FSAE guys. Were I to buy one of the two, I'd pick the Baja car. The Formula car had a carbon fiber monocoque, and was pretty much a one off (yes, they saved the molds, but good luck getting them, and who really has the ability to manufacture a CF safety cell in their garage?). Crack that frame, and it's game over. Permanently.

As stated in the first post, the car is engineered to the extreme for the sole purpose of winning (which it did). This is a car built to win one, maybe two races before a complete overhaul. It was not designed to last track day after track day. Stressed members had razor-thin factors of safety to save weight. Parts will break, and good luck reproducing the hand-made suspension linkages, gearbox, controls, etc.

On the flipside, the Baja car was made with largely off-the-shelf parts (engine is a rules-mandated unmodified 10hp Briggs), and built with tremendous factors of safety (to survive the relatively brutal 4 hour endurance race). While only able to top around 35-40mph on the flats, it could drive over logs, launch off ramps, and survive just about any beating you could serve up. Most of the suspension and drivetrain bits were off-the-shelf Polaris parts, making most parts cheap and easy to find. We had Baja cars from 4 years prior that had been beaten to death on camping trips and always came back in one piece. There was one team captain that put a Honda V-twin in an old car, and that thing could fly (very literally).

While the Baja cars were obviously more primitive tech-wise, their ability to take a beating meant anyone on the team could drive and abuse them (which we did nearly every weekend), as opposed to the Formula cars, where only a select few could lap them, and only one or two of that group were allowed to run with full race settings.

I realize I'm biased as I was on the Baja team, but most of the Formula guys agreed that the Baja cars were far easier to live with outside of the large university budgets and well-stocked machine shop.

ASheep > 2BWise 08/19/2013 at 18:08

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My uni keeps our 2007 car around for "driver training" (fun at trackdays). We have tried to get permission to take it out to non-FSAE trackdays and hillclimbs, but it's really hard because of insurance issues. A university in Western Australia had a "classic FSAE" comp last year, but we couldn't make it over there to compete :(

It was the last car our team used a GSXR engine on, without the intake restrictor it's INSANE! One of the guys has plans to fit a turbo kit, we have all the piping and intercooler built, but first the brakes need an upgrade, needs a new diff, new wheel bearings, and a bunch of other stuff to keep us alive...

ORANGE! > 2BWise 08/19/2013 at 18:20

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Duuuuuuuuuuuude!!

That was AWESOME!! He was working that car hard! I could watch that vid all day, especially since it was just raw car sound!! SO. GOOD!

CAFIFTY > 2BWise 08/19/2013 at 19:09

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I have twice tried to purchase one of the FSAE cars from my old University. And honestly I am glad I am glad i didn't. I love FSAE and love the cars but I just don't think its worth the headache to upkeep them. There is no good series to race them in. You have to custom machine everything. Nothing was made with longevity in mind (at least with my sub par team). The ergonomics typically suck (i had a driver get burns on his back from the exhaust). And parts almost always get cannibalized from the next year (ecu, sensors, shocks, wheels, etc).

With this said if i have the chance to buy one from my University on the cheap I still would but knowing I would regret it.

Axel-Ripper > 2BWise 08/19/2013 at 19:22

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When I started we had our 2006 car still alive and running as a freshman project/driver training car. It was our last 4 cylinder car and had simply had carbs put on in place of the notoriously unreliable restricted EFI system. This, of course, made it slightly less hideously unreliable. It was also a far cry handling wise from our then (and now even more so) current car. Point at corner, mash gas, once car moves slam brakes and try to turn, hope it sticks, mash gas again, repeat. It was not a "finesse" style car. It was a jetpack. A hilariously unreliable and unsafe jetpack built by long gone (and probably intoxicated) college students with a want to go fast.

Alas, that car was eventually lost to the realm of safety, common sense, and lack of storage room. And a mild fire during testing (remember kids: wear your firesuits and keep a fire extinguisher handy. We were all glad we did.)

TeamWoodsy > 81_VR6 08/19/2013 at 19:55

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which AWD car was this, the one I know existed is Guelphs, It would be great to know there are more of them can't wait until someone has the stones and resources financially and engineering wise to pull of a AWD aero car. Can you say dominate the wet skid pad at FSG like nobodies bussiness.

2BWise > CAFIFTY 08/19/2013 at 20:20

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I give the head of our alumni group huge credit. He stores the cars and does the bulk of the upkeep. A lot of that is documented in his blog. He has some serious skill and fab ability. Im lucky enough to get invites to come down and join in the fun. Its also part of the reason I never personally bought one. When I graduated I wanted to go wheel to wheel racing and have since been campaigning my own formula car (FC in SCCA). That car alone is enough work for me alone to prep but has a place to compete. These retired SAE cars are just a fun way to hang out and get some seat time. No stress, no stopwatches, catch up with old friends.

Xelmon > 2BWise 08/19/2013 at 20:42

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Portland State University - or rather, we - run our old cars after retirement as it's an excellent training vehicle.

We also go through them at a somewhat steady pace, as unlike places such as Texas A&M, we live on the 4th floor of our engineering building with about 800-900 ft^2 of space... I don't remember the dimensions off the room off hand.

Amit > 2BWise 08/20/2013 at 00:40

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I am a current student at UT Arlington. We still drive our 1986 car. (Below with 2009 car) Around campus we have a 92' car, a 94' car and cars from 2003 to 2013. All in running condition. This past year we dropped of our 1988 car of at The Museum of American Speed in Lincoln. It makes for a great learning tool and it's really cool to see them fire up. Love the story here and it is cool to see an effort to maintain these cars.

Bergh223 > 2BWise 08/20/2013 at 11:17

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Not sure about shifters. As a point of reference, WKA Alcohol Animals (4 cycle for the karting novices out there) turn 41.1's to 41.3's. Id imagine the shifter would be 2-3 seconds faster. If you check out mylaps.com you can probably find more.

And agreed 100%. The new section in the back forces you to be super smooth so you hold your line on exit of the double left. Looking forward to trying to get back there next year at some point.

CAFIFTY > 2BWise 08/20/2013 at 13:04

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Thats awesome. I am mad jealous. It sounds like a great time. So many of my close friends are from FSAE i couldn't imagine how fun it would be to get together with them on the weekends and race retired cars.

redmouseball > 2BWise 08/20/2013 at 22:37

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Mini Baja FTW!