Cars That Shouldn't Be Had With the Manual (Yes, I Went There)

"Satish Kondapavulur" (becauseCAR)
08/14/2013 at 22:22 • Filed to: MY STUPID LISTS

To cover my bases, let me state that I am not calling for the death of the manual transmission, even though I also wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . There are manual cars on sale I absolutely love, such as the Fiesta ST, 500 Abarth, 135is, and Mustang Boss 302, to name three (out of a relative few). But there are times when presented with a manual option over the automatic, it's probably best not to tick that box.

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As fun as manual cars are to drive, there are still reasons not to buy one. It's not the best choice for stop-and-go traffic. It may sometimes affect resale value (if it's not a BMW). The cost of clutch replacements may negate the manual. (Though in all fairness, our Odyssey has gone through a transmission and then a rebuild of the replacement in under 180,000 miles.) A car may not have been specifically engineered for the manual that got placed in it. In the interest of balance to the pro-manual rhetoric on Jalopnik , I've chosen five cars that are probably better served without a manual.

Author's Note: In the interest of self-preservation, if you take offense to the first image, I apologize. I also wanted to cross out the electronic parking brake, the iDrive controller, and the Sport/Comfort selector as well. I'm totally against the first two, but the last one has its benefits from time to time.

Toyota Matrix

Here's how I imagine a manual Matrix gets sold: teenage car enthusiast wants to buy a manual car with his/her sub-$5K budget. Parents think "no car is safe at that price" and decide to buy a new car for junior. Head to Toyota dealership. Mom sees the Matrix and thinks it's perfect. Kid puts his/her foot down and states he/she has to have a manual, or else . Parents are moved by argument because price is lower (ignorant that future clutch replacements will make up the price difference).

Meanwhile, the salespeople are ecstatic because moving a new manual car happens once in a blue moon at a Toyota store. This means the legendary Toyota resale value won't apply and it'll take a while to sell.

Volkswagen Jetta TDI

Let's face it. The Jetta TDI is bought mostly as a commuter car. So that means stop-and-go traffic, checking e-mail on the smartphone, and grooming/applying makeup. Why bother with a manual that'll get in the way of all that? The fuel economy is also the same between the manual and DSG, getting over 40 mpg consistently. You're even saving money by avoiding the future clutch replacements on the manual.

And it's not as if the driving experience will be significantly worse without the manual, since the DSG can provide the shifts even more quickly while helping maintain sanity in traffic. And even resale matters with this one. Manual VW TDI cars tend to stick around on lots longer than the non-manual cars.

Buick Verano

This one makes me want to facepalm. I have no doubt that this car with a manual and 2-liter turbo engine is fun, but at the end of the day, it's a Buick. A car whose driver is more likely to have grandchildren than know who Gucci Mane is. Whose driver is more likely to know Hedy Lamarr than operate Windows 8. (I'll stop now.) A manual won't bring the younger customers of Buick's desire. A manual makes more sense if a Verano GS existed.

So when Buick offers a manual on the $29,065 top-of-the-line Verano Premium Group (the only way to get the turbo engine), I have to wonder how the product planners made that call. There are better manual cars that can be had for that kind of money, like the Jetta GLI and Acura ILX. A BMW 320i isn't even that far off in price.

BMW 5-Series

As a rule of thumb, any BMW with a manual should be fun to drive. Such has been the case since the 2002. The current 535i is the exception, since it was never specifically engineered for the manual, and it shows. However, it's the only midsize luxury car that offers a manual. But the current one doesn't handle like past 5-Series cars, being noticeably heavier and having terrible steering feel for a BMW. (The steering in the GS F-Sport is better.)

Meanwhile, a ZF 8-speed automatic can get the job of good fuel economy and smooth shifting accomplished much better than the driver can. Also, a manual is probably not the best call with iDrive being standard. And getting a manual deletes the cupholders in the center console ahead of the gear stick.

Ram 2500

Yes, folks. Apparently Sergio Marchionne thought this warranted a manual instead of any car in the Ferrari lineup. It seems that's a benefit of a division run by a man named Reid Bigland. For years, Ford and GM haven't offered manuals on heavy-duty pickups for the ten people who might buy one. But not Ram. You can still get a manual with the Cummins diesel.

Now, I'm going to get many comments telling me the virtues of a manual tranny in a heavy-duty pickup, and I actually want to know them. (In addition, enlighten me as to the differences between the 2500 and 3500 versions of the Ram, Sierra, and Silverado as well as the F-250, F-350, and F-450.) Coming back to the point, I'll bring up the Jalopnik dream of the rear-drive manual station wagon. It does exist, in the form of Ram 2500 4x2 Crew Cab with the Cummins diesel, manual transmission, and canopy. But would you buy one?

!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! runs !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , named because "Clunker.com" was $82 at auction and would've taken 30% out of the balance of his Eagle Vision for LeMons fund. In between contemplating cross-country runs, he spends much of his time attempting to convince others that his MkV Jetta 2.0T Wolfsburg is indeed a sports sedan.

First photo courtesy Car and Driver. Rest of the photos per the respective manufacturers.

DISCUSSION (100)

Jonathan Hays > Satish Kondapavulur
08/14/2013 at 22:31

To address your pickup terminology issue:

1500/F150 = Half ton truck (the light duty version)

2500/F250 = Three-quarter ton truck (medium duty)

3500/F350 = One ton truck (Heavy duty)

4500/F450 = One and Half ton (Extra heavy duty)

Note: I believe everything up to 3500/F350 is considered a Light-duty truck while 4500/F450 on up are medium duty trucks, but for the sake of making it easy to understand, I figured the above makes sense. Why these trucks are only labeled as 1/2, 3/4, and 1 tons when they weigh and can tow substantially more is a mystery to me, but that's how it is.

Victorious Secret > Satish Kondapavulur
08/14/2013 at 22:34

No cars going forward should have one. Yea, I went even further.

Manuals are simply a rate of diminishing returns and not worth anyones investment anymore. I'll keep my flame suit on, I know I'll get a shit load of flack for saying it.

Manuals are for the 1% of the market that cares for such a thing, realistically we 1%'ers don't matter to a manufacturers bottom line. More appropriately, they laugh at our feeble beliefs that we actually matter. We don't.

Bring me my 8 and 9 and now 10 speed ZFs. If the 8 speed is anything to go by, jesus why even have DCTs anymore when torque converters are that smashing? Why not go full bore into CVTs for regular cars?

Manuals...its about time we at least accepted that they are done. Ironic, we hurl shit at fanboys yet we are the biggest fanboys ourselves and we don't acknowledge how biased and sometimes flawed our reasoning is.

I learned a long time ago to stop bitching and even caring about not having manuals. I enjoy my cars more because of that mentality.

Jacques L' Autre > Satish Kondapavulur
08/14/2013 at 22:34

Please stop making these lists. For the love of God, please stop.

GRIVLET - Proud of Cobalt > Satish Kondapavulur
08/14/2013 at 22:39

y u luv PRNDL?

Gamecat235 > Satish Kondapavulur
08/14/2013 at 22:39

Are you insane? The Buick? No. 270hp FWD 6-speed Buick? Sign me up.

Jetta TDI? You are about to earn the ire of many many folks.

Ram? ::blink, blink:: really? Just no.

Matrix? Maybe, now that they don't have a real XRS. But in the XRS configuration? Hell yes.

Edit... And the 5???

What? WHAT?

pianomanzero > Victorious Secret
08/14/2013 at 22:44

I thought I was starting to feel the same way after having a bunch of automamual cars, my Audi in particular, but I got a hold of my '85 GT-S with a manual and realized how bloody much I missed it.
I love having a manual again, don't care if its stop and go traffic or cruising.
Love it.

bobkustofawitshz > Satish Kondapavulur
08/14/2013 at 22:50

I have to respectfully disagree with everything on this list.
Matrix: availability of a manual may be its only redeeming quality, and God bless the teenager who insists on it.
Jetta TDI: diesel + manual = god tier, and VW is one of the very few (maybe the only?) automakers currently offering a diesel manual car in the US.
Edit: not just one, but two(!) diesel manual sedans - Passat TDI is available with a manual as well.
Buick: I actually agree with you re: the demographic that buys Buicks & the idea of a Verano GS. But Buick, in a rare move for automakers, actually made the manual available on the top trim & with the good engine. You've gotta give credit where it's due.
BMW 5-series: Yeah, it's no E39. But, as you said, it is the only midsize luxury car that offers a manual, and I wouldn't expect anything less. (actually, I know for a fact Acura offers the TL SH-AWD with a stick, which shocked me when I found out. But... Acura. Ugh.) I just think there's something really cool about a big luxury car with a stick.
Ram 2500: see: Jetta TDI. Add 4x4 and stick with the legendary Cummins diesel, in a 3/4 ton truck. Need I say more? That's about as Jalop as it gets.

dogisbadob > Satish Kondapavulur
08/14/2013 at 22:51

Buick should offer the manual in all Veranos, as well as the hatchback version (the Verano is the Opel Astra J)

The DSG has legendary VW reliability, and even changing the ATF every 40k is a chore. You can't just drain and fill it; they make it much more involved than that. The manual transmission probably isn't that reliable either, but it's likely much less expensive than the DSG automatic.

Thanks Fiat for offering a manual Ram, and fuck Ford and GM for not doing so. And they're even going to offer a Ram 1500 diesel!

The 5-series is way too big and should be renamed 7-series. And the fact that the manual deletes the cupholders is the last straw. I thought the CTS offered a manual transmission, unless they dropped it.

Lets Just Drive > Satish Kondapavulur
08/14/2013 at 22:54

Yeah!

And remove the fucking driver, too. He's the most inefficent part of the car.

That way we can all have Google Cars, live in Utopia and get together for weekly circle-jerks with our neighbors.

I'm glad you were expecting flame for this because I just want to say, "Fuck right off, Ahab."

Satish Kondapavulur > Jonathan Hays
08/14/2013 at 22:59

Thanks. But it always seems to me that people buy based on the number, not on how they'll actually use the truck. My neighborhood is full of people with heavy-duty trucks who got them only to tow sometimes tow a boat or trailer. Which you really don't need a heavy-duty truck to do.

J. Walter Weatherman > Satish Kondapavulur
08/14/2013 at 22:59

113

Manual Jetta TDI owner here to tell you how strongly I disagree with its inclusion on this list. I don't understand why being a commuter should mean that a manual is a bad choice. I tried having a commuter car without a manual, and it bored me to tears. Why does the fact that I want to save gas on my commute mean I don't want the fun of three pedals? I can tell you that the low end grunt of the turbodiesel is incredibly rewarding with the 6 speed.

Also, what on earth do you mean that the manual will save money on the clutch replacements? DSGs don't last forever either, and are much more expensive to replace. They are also much more expensive to maintain.

Satish Kondapavulur > Victorious Secret
08/14/2013 at 23:03

I think manuals will stay on the lower-end cars, like the Ford ST and RS models and 500 Abarth. I can't imagine those cars with an automatic or DCT. But on the seriously high-performance machines, an automatic or automated manual would become the norm.

I personally think it's a travesty that the new Corvette doesn't have a DCT. It would be so much better, and would win a lot of streetlight drag races.

Satish Kondapavulur > Jacques L' Autre
08/14/2013 at 23:04

It may come soon. I even resorted to asking Oppo for suggestions yesterday. With paltry results. :(

Jacques L' Autre > Satish Kondapavulur
08/14/2013 at 23:05

Take it as a sign.

Satish Kondapavulur > GRIVLET - Proud of Cobalt
08/14/2013 at 23:06

I hate PRNDL. I do like transmissions where I can choose exactly what gear I want to be in, which I can do on the ZF 8-speed transmissions and the dual-clutch gearboxes. However, GM inexplicably chooses to have PRNDL on the current ATS, which I get mad about, because it's chassis tuning is better than that of the current 3-Series.

Phyrxes once again has a wagon! > J. Walter Weatherman
08/14/2013 at 23:08

As a Manual Jetta TDI (Wagen) owner I agree with the sentiment of this post.

Satish Kondapavulur > Gamecat235
08/14/2013 at 23:11

Buick: I'd get the Regal GS.

Matrix: I'd rather get a manual Scion or Honda Fit.

Jetta TDI: It'll make sense in the end. Hopefully.

5: The manual 535i takes too much away from BMW's reputation for properly sorted manual cars. There's no way it'll bring people into the brand like the E39 did.

Ram: Seriously, would you buy one?

Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. > Satish Kondapavulur
08/14/2013 at 23:17

My dad had a '99 Ram with the 6 speed manual, 4WD, and diesel. Was a great truck until the infamous 53 block crack. Then even after getting the engine replaced, then having an injector go bad, toasting it, and then swapping in a junkyard engine. It never was the same truck. Always seemed to have something small always was keeping it from running right.

Satish Kondapavulur > J. Walter Weatherman
08/14/2013 at 23:23

The DSG transmission fluid is expensive, and does have to be done every 40K miles. But a clutch replacement would be at least five times the cost of servicing the DSG.

The traffic recommendation comes out of convenience though. I'd never be able to change the radio and drive stick in traffic at the same time. And the DSG has done a pretty good job for me so far in my Jetta 2.0T, that I don't regret not getting a manual.

Cloud81918 > Satish Kondapavulur
08/14/2013 at 23:25

I agree that trucks and most large vehicles are better without them. They handle more stress than manuals. I can also stomach them in luxury cars and long haul cars.

I will also agree that the Matrix is pretty lame with a manual. So is the second gen xB. I've driven both and they were frustrating. Both are way too underpowered to be engaging. Heavy and lacking any responsive feeling, they just aren't made better when you choose your gears.

But the TDI, naw I'd want to row my own. While they don't rev out of course, I think there is fun in shifting through that short rev range. And VW has a tendency to make for engaging dynamics even with a big iron lump sitting in the front end so when you find that curve you be glad to have a manual. Also with the torque, you aren't forced to shift often, nor do you have to be picky about gear selection. I've never understood the shifting complaint in traffic either; it isn't that bad and I've driven stick for years. Now they have the DSG, price the DSG servicing before saying clutches are more expensive. DSG servicing will send such VWs to the crusher towards the end as it is not cheap.

Satish Kondapavulur > dogisbadob
08/14/2013 at 23:27

The CTS doesn't offer a manual except on the CTS-V. And the 2014 CTS doesn't look like it'll have a manual.

The thing with the DSG is that the cost of changing the ATF will be overshadowed by a clutch replacement on the manual, which is why I'd go for the DSG, as long as it's serviced every 40K miles.

HammerheadFistpunch > Satish Kondapavulur
08/14/2013 at 23:28

you realize that the dsg has 2 clutches that will eventually need to be replaced right?

HammerheadFistpunch > Satish Kondapavulur
08/14/2013 at 23:28

No way should the dsg be on the only tranmission for the tdi. Its the far worse choice. In fact C&D just did a comparo with the jetta tdi dsg vs the cruze diesel auto and they said that the best free way to make the jetta tdi better was to save $1100 by opting for the manual. The manual is the ONLY transmission this car should have. I've had one for 3 years...I ought to know

Satish Kondapavulur > Lets Just Drive
08/14/2013 at 23:33

I actually don't mind Google Cars. Especially if the people who didn't care about driving got them. That way the left lane would never be clogged, accidents would almost never happen, and the highways would never be backed up. All of which mean I could tear down the highway without having to deal with terrible drivers.

Thanks for your support for the driverless car cause!

Satish Kondapavulur > Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street.
08/14/2013 at 23:35

If anything, I never see the Rams from the 1990s around nowhere near as much as I see Silverados, and F-Series trucks from the same period.

J. Walter Weatherman > Victorious Secret
08/14/2013 at 23:36

You say we shouldn't have any manuals anymore because they are "not worth anyones investment anymore", but I don't think that anyone that is still buying manuals these days is buying them based off of efficiency, they are buying them for fun, and those people are likely to continue to buy manuals, regardless of efficiency. And sure, it is not a massive part of the market, but it is still sizable enough to make it worth manufacturer's while to offer a manual on the right models. Manuals still make up more than 5% of the overall market, last I heard, and the number has actually increased over the last 10 years as far as I know, too.

I am not arguing that manuals need to be offered on MORE models - they should only be offered on ones that make financial sense for manufacturers - but I don't understand the argument that they should be done away with all together, while there are still enough people buying them to make them profitable for manufacturers.

Satish Kondapavulur > bobkustofawitshz
08/14/2013 at 23:38

Excellent comment!

I have to say, if the current 7-Series had a stick, I'd love it, mainly because the steering feel is much better than that of the current 5. And I could live out my Transporter fantasies.

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > Satish Kondapavulur
08/14/2013 at 23:41

At the end of the day, if the people demand it, it will be built and sold....

Who are you to tell some company what to build when their market research (which admittedly can be wrong at times) tells them exactly what the people who actually buy products demand?

Simple as that.

Satish Kondapavulur > Cloud81918
08/14/2013 at 23:42

DSG servicing is not cheap, but think around $250-$300 every 40K miles. (I have one in my Jetta 2.0T.) With at least $1000 for a clutch replacement and considering the life TDIs lead, I'd go DSG. Though they do drive relatively well.

J. Walter Weatherman > HammerheadFistpunch
08/14/2013 at 23:46

...and that replacing the clutches in the DSG isn't anything like replacing the clutch on a traditional manual. And that there are tons of other expensive parts on the DSG that can go out as well...

Satish Kondapavulur > HammerheadFistpunch
08/14/2013 at 23:47

As long as the transmission is maintained and looked after, the DSG should be fine. I haven't heard any horror stories. Yet.

HammerheadFistpunch > Satish Kondapavulur
08/14/2013 at 23:49

I have. I specifically bought a manual because I'd heard of dsg's going bad after 60k and costly clutch service. Manuals are BY FAR the more reliable path.

Lets Just Drive > Satish Kondapavulur
08/14/2013 at 23:49

I agree!

I think real people sharing the road with drone cars is a great idea.

Hey, I'm really into skydiving anal sex without a parachute or condom, you in?

Satish Kondapavulur > HammerheadFistpunch
08/14/2013 at 23:49

If you're a car enthusiast getting a TDI but looking for performance and a bit of fun, then maybe the manual may be wanted. But for most people, the DSG gets the job done and can also be a bit of fun. And I'd much rather have the DSG on a commute. (Disclaimer: My Jetta 2.0T has the DSG.)

HammerheadFistpunch > Satish Kondapavulur
08/14/2013 at 23:54

what im saying is that C&D specifically said the DSG is a bad match for this car and the manual is better in every way. The lumpy power delivery of a diesel doesn't mate with the character of the dsg. It was actually a demerit on the car. Its not online yet but its in the print issue, it should be online soon though I suspect. Check it out. My diesel has never been a liability on my car even in heavy traffic. Its a light clutch and the diesel power from idle means you only need 1 or 2 gears.

J. Walter Weatherman > Satish Kondapavulur
08/15/2013 at 00:01

I own a car with a DSG also. The mechatronics unit (a known problem area) was replaced at about 45k miles. If it hadn't been under warranty, it would have cost $900+ to replace. I think that DSGs are good transmissions, but there is no way that the long-term costs on them are going to be lower than the manual. Other than replacing the clutch at some point north of 100k miles, there just aren't that many other costs for regular manuals.

Gamecat235 > Satish Kondapavulur
08/15/2013 at 00:08

Buick? Sure, but options are nice and if Buick is going to survive, thy need younger buyers.

There isn't a Scion alternative to the Matrix, and to be honest the fact that the Fit comes in a manual is reason enough to offer the Matrix in one.

The TDI Jetta is the, THE, vehicle of choice for manual diesel purists period. There is an entire subculture around these vehicles. They are that good. And the manual is SUCH a better choice than the auto.

The 5? Well, most of the trim lines would never see a manual. But if I'm going M-sport I'm getting a manual. Period. And that's like saying that the FR-S shouldn't come with a manual because it can't compete with the Celica GT/GT-S's (86 and prior) of yore.

And the Ram? I know two people with these vehicles with manuals. I'll never buy a full size pickup. Ever. But the guys who do, who I know, chose manuals.

Gamecat235 > Satish Kondapavulur
08/15/2013 at 00:10

Did you just call a Focus RS a lower end car?

JQJ213- Now With An Extra Cylinder! > Victorious Secret
08/15/2013 at 00:13

I have to agree with you. Manuals are fun... for the first week or so of ownership. After that, you begin wondering why you were so cheap and saved the $1000. You try to justify it, saying it is more fun, you saved money, and get better gas mileage,but in reality you regret it.

Manuals are fun, just not for a daily driver. especially in stop and go traffic or in hilly areas.

I love that our S60 has the Tiptronic. I can shift if I want to, but no clutch.

The CVTs in the new Forester and in many Nissans are so smooth, you don't feel the gears. It is so much nicer.

GRIVLET - Proud of Cobalt > Satish Kondapavulur
08/15/2013 at 00:17

Yeah - I went to test drive an ATS 2.0T rwd (as it shares the 2.0 DI motor that is in my beloved cobalt) but all they had was automatics and most of them were all wheel drive. They literally told me I probably couldn't test drive one any time soon without ordering one. I was pretty disappointed and made sure they knew that.

Also do you work for ZF? lol. I will say the newer transmissions are neat, but... cmon.

GRIVLET - Proud of Cobalt > Satish Kondapavulur
08/15/2013 at 00:25

Also (honestly I didn't read what you actually wrote until now [i know, i know, im sorrrrry]) I don't believe that resale value is negatively affected by having a MT.

If there is one thing that SHOULD lower value is the relatively fragile transmissions in the earlier M6 M5 variants with the automated manual. They are about 12k to replace and replacements have been common.

But I digress... I have a "crappy little cobalt" SS, which is still on its original clutch , currently making 321hp & 366ft.lbs of torque at the wheels, now at 88k miles with no signs of giving up any time soon. Manuals generally last longer in my experience as well - PLUS the one clutch it has (automatics have many, many clutches) is relatively easy to replace, while an automatic requires a rebuild to replace worn clutches.

I do see what you are saying though, a big truck with a manual... meh.

Really, for me, anything weighing over 4000lbs would probably not be much fun in manual form. 3500lbs probably would be the limit (for me), but I like smaller, lighter cars - these are also easier on transmissions as well.

cheers!

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > Satish Kondapavulur
08/15/2013 at 00:27

I say keep doing them, if anything they create discussion and get more than 200 page views without resorting to a NSFW tag.

Gamecat235 > Satish Kondapavulur
08/15/2013 at 00:29

The great thing about this place is that there are so many different perspectives. It's awesome.

I don't agree with you, but I see where you are coming from.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Satish Kondapavulur
08/15/2013 at 01:08

Two things

1. My Mom drives a Vibe GT which is a rebadged Matrix, and it would kick ass if it had a manual. It's actually a really fun car to drive as long as you turn the tc off. If you don't do that it thinks it's 2.4 has so much power it needs to take off and stay in 4th.

2. I've driven manual Ram's and the 6 speed is a beautiful transmission. In some years of the Ram it is pretty much the only version you would want.

Satish Kondapavulur > Gamecat235
08/15/2013 at 01:08

I know. It's fun to do lists like these because I actually do learn things.

Satish Kondapavulur > HammerheadFistpunch
08/15/2013 at 01:11

I don't know. My neighbor across the street has a 2009 TDI with the DSG with over 100K miles and it's been fine so far. Haven't heard anything about clutch service, but he did mention the relatively expensive transmission maintenance.

Satish Kondapavulur > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman
08/15/2013 at 01:13

With the Jetta TDI and 5-Series, there is some sense. But one wonders if the market for those cars would change much if the manual was gone...

Satish Kondapavulur > Gamecat235
08/15/2013 at 01:19

High-end in the SF Bay Area ends up being $50K+ because it's so full of A4s, 3-Series cars, and C-Class Benzes (most of which are leased). Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the average car transaction price was north of $30K. A Focus RS if sold here would probably be about what they charge for the Golf R, which is around $35-40K.

Satish Kondapavulur > GRIVLET - Proud of Cobalt
08/15/2013 at 01:22

I don't work for ZF. It's just that I've had tremendous respect after driving them in the Jaguar F-Type, the BMW 750Li, and in the Audi S8. They're really that good.

Satish Kondapavulur > GRIVLET - Proud of Cobalt
08/15/2013 at 01:27

I'm all for smaller and lighter cars with manual transmissions. The Fiesta ST and 500 Abarth are favorites of mine. And there's nothing like a manual 135is.

And I feel like I should praise you for being on your original clutch this long, especially with the modifications. (And I like the turbocharged Cobalt SS. I don't have much love for the earlier supercharged version though.) I would never be able to manage that. I'd probably need a replacement at 70K miles.

Thanks for the comment!

Satish Kondapavulur > J. Walter Weatherman
08/15/2013 at 01:29

Darn. Now I have to get some preventative service done when the car gets its 40K mile service next month...

Satish Kondapavulur > beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard
08/15/2013 at 01:29

I'll still keep on doing them. Thanks for the encouragement!

Satish Kondapavulur > Lets Just Drive
08/15/2013 at 01:33

No way. Mainly because I'm scared of what the flying drones might record.

Satish Kondapavulur > Gamecat235
08/15/2013 at 01:36

I guess when there are so few manuals in the world, we have to fight tooth-and-nail to preserve them. But sometimes, I really do want these companies to survive, and a manual doesn't help their case, with the exception of the BMW and the Jetta TDI.

Satish Kondapavulur > HammerheadFistpunch
08/15/2013 at 01:38

I'll check it out. Also, I've driven a TDI with the DSG before (neighbor has one), and it was actually fairly fun. A manual would been more fun though, but I know I couldn't live in traffic with it, but that's where it would be more often than not.

Satish Kondapavulur > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies
08/15/2013 at 01:43

With the Vibe GT, I'm not surprised. With the current generation of Ram though, the Aisin heavy-duty automatic is something I would trust a lot more. With the Rams built in the 1990s though, I would go manual.

Lets Just Drive > Satish Kondapavulur
08/15/2013 at 02:17

Point won, good sir.

Shiftright > Victorious Secret
08/15/2013 at 03:37

They are done in the US. The rest of the world disagrees with you.

Victorious Secret > Satish Kondapavulur
08/15/2013 at 09:03

Keep doing them.

Its one of the few sources of original content left here that isn't related to tits or theme days.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Satish Kondapavulur
08/15/2013 at 09:04

Resale value? Seriously?

This is OPPO man. If you're not buying a car for yourself and your own enjoyment, but thinking about what the next owner might like, you're doing it wrong...

nataku83 > Satish Kondapavulur
08/15/2013 at 09:06

Have you had to replace a lot of clutches or something? I've never had one go on any of the manual cars I've owned, only once had to replace one on a bike (due to using incorrect oil with friction modifiers). My mom has over 100k miles on the original clutch in her Cobalt , and she drives like shit, slips it more than necessary, doesn't know what rev-matching is, and is usually in a much higher gear than necessary because she's screwing around with the radio instead of driving. Hell, her brake pads lasted 100k miles in that car - which gives you some idea of the abuse that poor clutch has endured. If you don't dump it and know how to drive, a clutch should last a very, very long time.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Satish Kondapavulur
08/15/2013 at 10:57

Well, I look at it this way. GM and Ford went with one transmission only. The Torqueshift is great, but the Allison is only great until it needs rebuilt. The manuals on the other hand use clutches as long as the Allison lasts. So on that thought I'd choose the manual.

Satish Kondapavulur > Victorious Secret
08/15/2013 at 11:18

Thanks. I absolutely love doing them. Though good topics are difficult to think of sometimes.

Satish Kondapavulur > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
08/15/2013 at 22:27

I feel that when buying a car new, resale value should be under consideration. Though honestly, that applies to probably less than 10% of Oppo.

Chase > Satish Kondapavulur
08/15/2013 at 22:28

That depends a bit on the boat and trailer, although most of them probably don't need it.

Unfortunately, something that most people don't take into account with towing is not whether the truck can pull the weight, but rather whether it can stop it.

Couple years ago, saw an '04 F-150 towing a 28' whaler outrage with a pair of 250 horse Mercury's on the back. 6600lb boat, 2 650+lb engines, and potentially 1000 + lbs of gas (186 gallons full). All told, maybe 9000lbs.

Technically within the towing capacity of the truck (9900lbs). However, the truck only weighs 4800lbs. So now, its brakes have to stop not only the truck, but the trailer behind it that weighs twice as much as it does.

Tends to make me more than a little wary of the average boat trailer.

Satish Kondapavulur > nataku83
08/15/2013 at 22:29

I guess it shows the durability of GM clutches. But I've never had a manual car. Though I know if I had one, I don't think the clutch would last as long as I would it to, especially in cars like the Fiesta ST and 500 Abarth.

Bab66 > Satish Kondapavulur
08/15/2013 at 23:21

Still driving my '03 Matrix XR on its original clutch (in my old age I've become a more mellow driver who still pines for his '85 MR2). I want to get a new car, but this thing just won't die. After 155,000 miles, it gets better mileage now (~40 mpg overall) than when new (maybe because of all the shitty plastic parts that have fallen off) and still can zip when called upon. The automatic in this car was pitiful.

As long as I don't have to deal with stop-and-go traffic this is a dandy vehicle.

GBond > Satish Kondapavulur
08/15/2013 at 23:42

Clutches last a long time and are quite cheap to repair.

The only automatic car I've had I ended up selling for $700 because the automatic transmission went and the repair was north of $1,000, while I can get a clutch for about a quarter of that.

I've had my current car since new, driving mostly city with hard acceleration and braking, I've taken it on a track and even on a drag strip several times and 60k miles later there's still no slipping at all from the clutch.

hethoughtofcars > Satish Kondapavulur
08/15/2013 at 23:44

I don't really have a problem with any of these choices...but jeez...manuals are getting to be such a rare option in any car, why strike these (that actually offer them, despite the economics) off the list?

DIRTEE30 > Satish Kondapavulur
08/15/2013 at 23:44

I agree with all of them except for the Matrix. I would rather pay for the clutch replacement (or rather, help pay for it, as I do not believe in paying all when it comes to my child's car. They will know that a car requires maintenance, and that costs money, so get a job) so that they can have the same enjoyment I had with my last two cars. Dual clutch setups are now faster and more fuel efficient than the manual, but it's all about the experience. Knowing how to change gears is one thing, but knowing how to change gears by feel/sound of engine is another.

On the same note, I applaud Honda for making the new Accord available with manual on the EX trim. All too often we see manual being offered only on the low-level trim. It's nice to know a car company sees the value of wanting a manual and creature comfort at the same time.

autojim > Satish Kondapavulur
08/15/2013 at 23:53

I think you were, at some point early in your life, forced at gunpoint to do a clutch replacement on an ancient 1-ton truck with an iron gearbox while said truck was straddling a fetid ditch.

This is the only explanation I can come up with your unnatural fixation on clutch wear as an excuse to not drive a manual transmission.

Did you know that DSG transmissions have not one but TWO clutches that will eventually need replacing? Did you know that automatic transmissions have MULTIPLE clutches inside that will eventually need replacing? And automatics, because they're designed to slip shifts, will wear their clutches more rapidly than a correctly-driven manual will wear its clutch?

Really, modern clutches, even in performance cars, aren't very heavy. And a little isometric exercise is good for you.

marshknute > Satish Kondapavulur
08/16/2013 at 00:04

Fuck you.

colorfulyawn > Satish Kondapavulur
08/16/2013 at 00:04

I'll have to disagree. Even on the Ram. My family has an F-350 with the gas V-10 and a manual, and it's great to drive.

And DCTs have clutches too, so I'm not sure why you say replacement won't be an issue. Apparently some DCTs burn through clutches quicker than manuals do. I've had clutches last 100,000 miles in manual cars, with life still left in them (replaced with more performance-oriented, aftermarket clutches, not because they were worn out). I don't think the maintenance costs are as much as you make them out to be.

If you don't like driving a manual in certain cars, that's fine. It's not for everybody. But I'll take a third pedal in every vehicle I have to drive, if it's offered. Especially cars with smaller, lower-torque engines like the Matrix.

Trin-Engr > Satish Kondapavulur
08/16/2013 at 00:07

True the DSG fluid is more expensive than the entire manual clutch, but not when you compare replacing the DSG itself vs. the manual clutch plate (which a reasonably competent shadetree mechanic can actually accomplish - servicing an auto requires friggin' Professor Dumbeldore).

Drove the DSG before I tried the manual, and the response of the DSG made me chose the manual box. The occasional irritation of tooling in traffic with the manual is more than made up for by curvy onramps with pedal to the metal in 3rd gear.

Manuals are just more fun, and you feel better connected to your car (read: driver, not commuter).

son of a Sven > Satish Kondapavulur
08/16/2013 at 00:18

For fuck's sakes! Regarding the 5-series: " getting a manual deletes the cupholders in the center console ". How is that a goddamn negative?

boneheadotto > Satish Kondapavulur
08/16/2013 at 00:23

DUDE WTF! when you are purchasing an economy car they almost always drive better with a manual. I know i owned a 2003 Vibe with a manual that i had to replace with an Auto 2009 Vibe due to a medical issue with my clutch foot. Both have the same engine and the 2003 drove worlds better. Plus when i sold it at 115k miles it still had the original clutch with no slipping. And one clutch replacement does not equal the price difference. I had no problem selling it, as many people knew that the car was far superior with a manual than the auto. Mileage was even better so there is more price savings. But even if it cost the same it was a hell of a lot better.

Tom Bennett > Satish Kondapavulur
08/16/2013 at 00:23

I am not sure I understand all the "clutch wear" angst here in your notes... I've driven cars over 100K miles without ever having to replace a clutch. I still think as a car ages it's less of a worry than having an expensive auto trans that can develop issues (read Audi, VW experience here)

boneheadotto > Satish Kondapavulur
08/16/2013 at 00:26

Plus need i remind you that a DSG is a dual clutch transmission. It does not run on magical unicorn farts and will need its clutches replaced at some point. Thats right CLUTCHES! as in two of them. Plus i guarantee its harder to get to than a normal clutch. Good luck with that transmission being cheaper ever.

RatMR2 > JQJ213- Now With An Extra Cylinder!
08/16/2013 at 00:27

There's a reason you can't feel the gears - there aren't any. A CVT does not use varying gear ratios to change the torque multiplication, it uses a belt-and-cone system which can vary continuously, as shown below):

BigGatorChris > Satish Kondapavulur
08/16/2013 at 00:32

Everybody who thought they cancelled the Matrix five years ago raise your hand.

John Hamilton Farr > Satish Kondapavulur
08/16/2013 at 00:38

We drive a 2007 Pontiac Vibe. That would be your Matrix equivalent. Can't imagine driving it in the mountains here in NM without the 5-speed manual. Even underpowered as it is, you can still have a blast shifting and get the most out of the small engine... Downshifting to 3rd at 65mph to pass is a hoot and a half, too.

Seems to me that having an automatic is a vehicle with gobs of horsepower and torque makes sense, though. Wouldn't bother me then.

Murray > Satish Kondapavulur
08/16/2013 at 00:50

If the cost of clutch replacements is seriously a factor for you, you need to learn to drive a manual properly. I've worn out exactly one clutch since I started driving when I was 15. It was the first manual I ever owned. Since then, I learned how not to drive like a moron.

The Stig's Rustbelt Cousin > Satish Kondapavulur
08/16/2013 at 00:52

That's because they've all rusted to bits.

maximum_sarge > Satish Kondapavulur
08/16/2013 at 00:52

Cars that shouldn't be had with manuals:

Base models with small engines and basic trim. So many cars these days, the manual is only available with the little engine, as if the manufacturers just want to mock enthusiasts. If I can't have it with the fun motor, screw everyone else.

HydraulicDragon > Satish Kondapavulur
08/16/2013 at 00:54

Definitely disagree with the VW TDI and the BMW. Both are awesome with manuals, and the TDI is a great tuner car that can be pretty damn quick. Why muck up the sporting potential with an Auto?

dcmechanica > Satish Kondapavulur
08/16/2013 at 01:02

Sachs clutch cost me $336 to replace, dealer wants $500 for a DSG fluid change, which is very difficult to do yourself. My last TDI's clutch was still strong after 130,000 miles, might help if you learn to rev match and stop riding your clutch.

dcmechanica > Satish Kondapavulur
08/16/2013 at 01:04

Learn to rev match, or better yet, don't ride your clutch. My clutch is still holding strong at 80k, last TDI had 130,000mi on original clutch. A clutch change cost $360, DSG service costs $500, get your facts straight and learn to drive

Matthew Henry > Satish Kondapavulur
08/16/2013 at 01:06

Ah, the manual transmission. I'll be honest, I think almost all cars shouldn't be had with a manual. Automatic transmissions have grown by leaps and bounds over the past few years, and on most true performance cars, an 8-speed shiftable autobox will provide you with better shifts and performance than any true manual.

My last car was a Jeep Wrangler. It had an automatic, which was a great choice. When you're navigating a particularly tough trail, there are so many things to worry about (clearance, roll-over angels, wheel position, suspension travel, etc.) that I can't imagine also having to row your own and deal with a clutch. You'd really need to have 3 legs to make that work well.

I just bought a 1997 Saturn SL2, however, and specifically looked for a 5-speed manual. My family hadn't owned a stick shift vehicle in over a decade, and I wanted the experience of driving a stick. I think they'll be mostly obsolete in just a few years, so now was the time. In a slow economy sedan like mine, the manual adds a little interest to the driving experience. Sure, it's a little of a pain on hills and in heavy traffic, but I live in a small town. I'm also finding that I'm becoming a far better (and more considerate) driver, as I become accustomed to the quirks of a manual transmission. I'm looking farther ahead, and becoming a far better judge of momentum.

Really, I like the option of buying a manual, and I think it's a great thing on the smaller weight-class of sporty vehicles (Fiat 500, Scion FR-S, MX-5 Miata, etc.) But unless the vehicle is purposed for your enjoyment instead of utility, the auto is probably the way to go.

special_k_side > Satish Kondapavulur
08/16/2013 at 01:13

Wondering, who actually drives a TDI VW in North America that needs a factory bulletin, and a shipment of a sticker saying "Diesel Only" then a recall to put a restrictor in the filler nozzle because they are much less smarter than a truck owner to NOT put gasoline in them! VW Drivers, believing too much for too long! Yes, the DSG shifts faster than a human can blink, but when it goes bad (Don't kid yourselves kids) it is expensive! :) Now, let's get onto a more silly story, like how the Samurai flips, or maybe like how a 92 Dodge 2500 with a Standard is more expensive for a clutch replacement than a modern auto tranny replacement..... NOT!

dcmechanica > Satish Kondapavulur
08/16/2013 at 01:17

DSG has how many clutches to replace? TWO, how much you figure that will cost?

ThinIce-Koe > Satish Kondapavulur
08/16/2013 at 01:29

The DSG is a piece of crap(and I put this mildly), and is KNOWN to die right after warranty. Recommending such a POS over a manual is really a mind boggling thing to comprehend.

And really, the poster needs to know how to drive stick better. I can drive a stick WITH a drink in either hand, use turn signal AND change radio if I needed to. If you can't multitask while driving stick you need to get better.

ThinIce-Koe > Satish Kondapavulur
08/16/2013 at 01:32

You don't go to VW Vortex forums (at all) then. That's like a given for any self-proclaimed auto enthusiast, and especially one who is masochistic to want to go with a VW...

MeestahK > Satish Kondapavulur
08/16/2013 at 01:48

I'll have to agree with the 5-Series on this one. Ever since the last generation with the V10 M5 it feels like the manual was an afterthought in the 5-series. It appears that BMW has designed the vehicle around the automatic gearbox and then half-assedly retrofits a crappy manual gearbox to try an appeal to those traditionalists thus making the car even worse than before.

dbx6 > Victorious Secret
08/16/2013 at 02:18

"No cars going forward should have one (stick shift/manual transmission)."

Even the Miata? Serious question.

dbx6 > JQJ213- Now With An Extra Cylinder!
08/16/2013 at 02:25

I agree. I owned both and loved driving a manual *up to* the point where it became inconvenient and uncomfortable. I appreciate automatics for creature comforts. So yes, not every car can be a stiff raced tuned suspension with hard-as-carbon-fiber racing seats and 4-point harnesses nor should they be. A plush roomy seat with AC, sound system, and an automatic is a godsend when your focus *isn't* to break land speed records but instead, do your daily congested stop-and-go commute in comfort.

That being said, I think that a stick shift is nice to have - in the second car. Even if you're not doing SCCA solo races, having an old Miata with bad fading paint but a good engine and a manual transmission is something to aspire to and reachable by most mortals with a job... so that's my take. Automatic for daily, manual for weekends and leisure.

Micro-dosing Gawker's Tears > Satish Kondapavulur
08/16/2013 at 02:40

I have a first get matrix manual. It's not the S so it's slow with only 5speed and 130hp, but it would be a bore to drive with an auto. The manual makes a slow car fun and "fast", also 35mpg is nice. And it's got 100k on the original clutch so I'm expecting to replace it soon, which I will do myself and probably drop in the 6speed. I wish I waited for an XRS but my last car was dying fast! Honestly the manual makes the car. And I drive all the time in SF bay area traffic. Not so bad /shrug

xen0blade > Gamecat235
08/16/2013 at 02:45

A BMW 5 series without a manual. Yup, the author's lost it. Completely. As in bonkers, nutso, crazy.

stevethecurse > Victorious Secret
08/16/2013 at 02:55

I like manual better. That is not flawed reasoning.

Micro-dosing Gawker's Tears > Satish Kondapavulur
08/16/2013 at 03:01

Most people yeah, lifted bro trucks that only go mall-wheelin, but we have a 3500 dually that we use to tow the 4 horse gooseneck all the time, along with regular bumper pull and gooseneck dump bed trailers and my uncle tows his boat every weekend with a 1500 v6 with 300k on the clock, my buddy also tows his boat and trailer all the time in his 1500 suburban with about 300k on the 5.7 v8. They get used around here! But for every one well used truck I see a dozen beauty queen / penis extensions.

Micro-dosing Gawker's Tears > Satish Kondapavulur
08/16/2013 at 03:11

Some of these big diesel trucks are scary! 1500 ft lb though an auto? ehhhhhh no.

"Is this truck fast?"

"Yup."

drops a gear at 40 and does a roll on burnout pitching it sideways like it's nothing.