"6cyl" (6cyl)
08/14/2013 at 05:20 • Filed to: e30, 6cyl, bmw, itb, project, throttle bodies
16
53|
"6cyl" (6cyl)
08/14/2013 at 05:20 • Filed to: e30, 6cyl, bmw, itb, project, throttle bodies | 16
| 53 |
A while back I noticed that BMW had never made an M version of the m20 motor which was used in the e21, e30, and e28. The motors that did get the M upgrades were:
(i4) m10 -> s14 [I count this for the m42 as well] (e30 M3)
(i6) m30 -> m88/s38 (e26 M1, e25 M5 and e34 M5)
(i6) m50/2 -> s50 (euro e36 M3 and early euro Z3M)
(i6) m54 -> s54 (e46 M3, late Z3M and Z4M)
(v8) m60 -> s62 (e39 M5, e52 Z8)
(v12) m70 -> s70/2 (see: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! )
What do all the motors have in common. If you say DOHC or timing chains I'll cry. That is beside the point and I'll hear none of it. The answer I want is individual throttle bodies, high compression, headers/high flow exhaust and aggressive cams.
Currently there are three "bolt on" kits available to add individual throttle bodies to your m20. Two are from dbilas and one from Extrudabody.
The "street" kit costs 2,075.00 euro plus shipping.
Pros:
You can use the stock ECU with an add on chip
Looks amazing on the motor
Is the closest to bolt on and go available
Cons:
Members on the forums have decided that the intake is poorly designed and restrictive to the motor
I also have questions if the intake runners are the right length
Plenum/airhorns mount with hose clamps
Most expensive
The other options from dbilas is the "for racing" kit that costs 1,499 euro. (No image available)
Pros:
Cheapest kit available
Bolt on velocity stacks (I believe)
Place for a second set in fuel injectors (I believe)
Cons:
Need a standalone engine management system or need to build a plenum
I have found no images or documentation on this kit (very little to no information available about it)
May have brake booster clearance issues
The other option is the kit from Extrudabody it costs $1,999.00 USD.
Pros:
This is obviously more cost effective
Comes with everything you need
Cons:
More assembly and modification needed than the "for street" dbilas kit
I think the extruded and anodized aluminum looks a little out of place on the m20 motor
I also have doubts that the intake runners are the proper length
You need a standalone engine management system
Anyways I thought it would be interesting to try my hand at making my own set. Many people have done this before. The first question to consider is choice of throttle bodies. All of the m20 ITB builds I have seen use either motorcycle throttle bodies or BMW itb's from a s38/50/54 motor. The problem I see with the bike throttle body set ups is that they attach with hoses and hose clamps. This has three issues: lots of points for vacuum leaks, a less smooth intake track and potentially a less stable/strong/rigid mounting.
The problem I can see with s38/50/54 throttles is that they are way to big as they are meant for 3.0-3.8L motors and are 48-50mm in diameter which is bad for throttle response and intake velocity. Also they have the wrong port shape so for proper fitting so they need to be cut and welded or some odd adapter plate needs to be made which will result in less than optimal flow.
Eventually I found this diagram of the intake of the m20 head and around the same time I discovered that the Nissan RB26 from the Skyline GTR had individual throttle bodies. As this is a similar sized motor (2,494cc and 2,568cc) I thought they might be compatible. I then found out that they are relatively available and can often be had for around $200 a set on eBay. Also turns out that the space from the center of one throttle to the center of the adjacent throttle is 90mm. This is nearly prefect for the 91mm spaced m20 intake ports. A set came up for a deal one day and I hopped on it. I decided if nothing else I could take measurements and post them up for others considering them as an option. Turns out they are a little too long so either adapters need to be made to push the outside pairs out a few millimeters or a new single axel shaft needs to be made connecting all the throttles.
Next I found a source of 45mm velocity stacks on eBay that has them available for ~$10/piece. This is a steal as velocity stacks generally cost around $40/piece. They are cast with the inside machined.
The newest component to arrive on this long term project was the dbilas manifold. As you can see I am still gathering measurements to try to see how everything will fit together.
This is basically what I am thinking for the runners and intake manifold. The idea is based on the Hartge H27s design but instead of using a small center mounted intake it will be a large V-shaped intake above the velocity stacks. The idea behind this is that it will give more even airflow to each cylinder.
This is really more of a long term project but I have been getting excited and wanted to share.
Cheers
bkempert
> 6cyl
08/14/2013 at 07:47 |
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As a fellow e30 owner with an M20 engine, I am so excited to follow this project. Looks great so far, please don't forget to update us as you progress! Very well written start of a build.
Party-vi
> 6cyl
08/14/2013 at 08:20 |
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This is very cool.
Sparf
> 6cyl
08/14/2013 at 08:21 |
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Where'd you find that diagram? "Insug" is Swedish for intake.
Anyways, sounds like an awesome project! I love ITBs and am currently trying to figure out how to put ITBs on my GT-Four's 3S-GTE.
I remember seeing a build thread on a Nissan forum where a guy converted an SR20VE head to fit on an SR20DET. One of the other mods he did was to install ITBs on it and weld a custom intake manifold to connect them to the turbo. From the looks of it that (coupled with a front-mounted intercooler) would actually be a more space-effective setup than what my car has now (which is the rather archaic Toyota Variable Intake System, T-VIS ).
Basically something a bit like this, but slightly more compact so that it will clear the firewall:
Battery Tender Unnecessary
> 6cyl
08/14/2013 at 09:09 |
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The head of the S14 was just a M88 with two cylinders cut off as far as I know.
Dukie - Jalopnik Emergency Management Asshole
> Sparf
08/14/2013 at 09:21 |
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AE111 Quad throttles should work. Matt Panic did that on his Beams setup in his drift 1st Gen Celica.
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6cyl
> Sparf
08/14/2013 at 09:26 |
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I can't seem to find where I first found the diagram. Most recently I found the copy I have above by just using a Google search.
Is there a way to adapt a 4a-ge throttle body set up to your motor? I would think it might be as simple as an adapter plate.
MonkeePuzzle
> 6cyl
08/14/2013 at 09:27 |
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A: ITBs sound incredible
B: ITBs look incredible, and anything beats the intake design on top of the M20
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Sparf
> Dukie - Jalopnik Emergency Management Asshole
08/14/2013 at 09:27 |
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It seems AE111 ITBs are perfect for almost any engine with 4 or 8 cylinders. Even the Mazda 1.6 B6 and 1.8 BP in the Miata have AE101/AE111 ITB adapter kits available for them!
Also, the Altezza 3S-GE BEAMS Blacktop is one of my favorite longitudinal 4-bangers ever! I'd love to do a build with one in a 3rd gen Celica.
ZeroOrDie - Powered By MZR
> 6cyl
08/14/2013 at 09:40 |
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Very cool man. I am sorry tho...the only way the m20 sounds good is with a set of ITBs. But you are on the right track. Not saying it isn't a good motor. Just MO on the engine sound. Looks cool. I like little projects like this keep us updated!
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6cyl
> MonkeePuzzle
08/14/2013 at 09:41 |
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Unfortunately the M20 intake is really well designed and actually hard to beat. See how each intake runner has an opposite partner? Well that is the cylinder that fires at opposite timing. So in theory as the intake valve closes the pressure/sound waves travel up the runner and across the manifold then downs the partner runner, pressurizing the intake charge of the opposite cylinder. It also has one of the lowest possible volumes possible for the given runner length and a single throttle system. All while still providing nearly even flow to all cylinders.
On the other hand... ITB's sound incredible and look incredible and have even lower post throttle volume (better throttle response) and can have higher potential flow rates and runner length can be adjusted for tuning.
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Sparf
> 6cyl
08/14/2013 at 09:46 |
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Yeah I think a AE111 4A-GE Blacktop's ITBs would probably work perfectly if I can find an adapter plate (unless they fit as-is, which I doubt). The only problem would be that they might be too small since the 3S-GTE is a 2.0L engine and not a 1.6L, but then again I seem to recall that the 4A-GE ITBs flow ridiculously well and work fine with larger displacements.
Either way it's a future project, since I'll be acquiring a new(er) engine (probably out of an ST205) for the build.
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6cyl
> ZeroOrDie - Powered By MZR
08/14/2013 at 09:48 |
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I really like this sound of Bullitt Ride's m20 powered e30. It doesn't have itb's yet but I think he is working on it now.
!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
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6cyl
> Sparf
08/14/2013 at 09:53 |
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From what I just now read (here) they are sized 43mm (silver top) and 45mm (black top) either of which is a perfect size for a 2.0L. 43mm with longer runners for more torque. 45mm with shorter runners for higher revs and more HP.
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ZeroOrDie - Powered By MZR
> 6cyl
08/14/2013 at 10:00 |
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Those long tubes help for sure. All I am saying is there are better sounding inlines. However given the choice I would pick the e30 m20 over other cars in its segment. And of course N/A over force induction. The sound alone will trump everything else IMO.
So that last pic isnt yours? You are making your own air plenum?
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6cyl
> bkempert
08/14/2013 at 10:01 |
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Thanks. I was just going post a few photos. Then I realized I should probably try to explain a few things. Next thing I knew it just got longer and longer. I'll post updates when I have them but I have a feeling this is going to take a long time.
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6cyl
> Party-vi
08/14/2013 at 10:01 |
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Thanks!
LeadfootYT
> 6cyl
08/14/2013 at 10:22 |
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Very cool writeup. I've often dreamed of doing this to my E24, but the cost would end up being too much (and tuning would be terribly confusing).
Best of luck though. Can't wait to see what happens.
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6cyl
> ZeroOrDie - Powered By MZR
08/14/2013 at 10:28 |
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Unfortunately that last photo is not mine. It is just an image I was lucky enough to come across one day online. I wish I had a Hartge setup but I cannot imagine how much it is worth. Their m20 valve cover is alone worth $500+.
Yes I am planning on designing my own plenum and making it or possibly having it made. I am considering the following build materials:
a composite like fiberglass, CF, or kevlar
deep drawn metal for lightness, strength and repeatability
custom cut and welded aluminum
or some combination of the above
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ZeroOrDie - Powered By MZR
> 6cyl
08/14/2013 at 10:39 |
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Ive watched a few youtube videos on making carbon fiber intake manifolds. I feel this would be what you are looking for. I don't have any experience with fiberglass in both cases tho I believe you would make a mod of the inside of the intake and then lay carbon or fiberglass over that.
You aren't boosting it so I think a welded aluminum intake would work if youhave a TIG welder or someone who can do it for you.
This is all very interesting. I wanted to create a CF intake manifold for a duratec engine to make it look like the stock intake but the internals would be more trumpeted like a cosworth manifold BUT forward facing and to the naked eye the same as stock so it'd pass visual inspection. I wonder if I could hide an ITB set inside it...now you have my mind racing haha.
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Sparf
> 6cyl
08/14/2013 at 10:42 |
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Come to think of it, the 3S-GE BEAMS Blacktop in the Altezza has aftermarket ITBs available for it, and I think they might fit even better.
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6cyl
> LeadfootYT
08/14/2013 at 10:44 |
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I think it would be easier to do on an m30. You could even just get s38 throttle body adapters or have some made up like this . But yes certainly lots of added complexity for minimal power gains.
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LeadfootYT
> 6cyl
08/14/2013 at 10:46 |
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One helluva noise, though.
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6cyl
> ZeroOrDie - Powered By MZR
08/14/2013 at 11:10 |
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If I make it my self it will be out of carbon fiber and fiberglass. I think it is just the easiest way to make a semi-complex shape.
I really like that idea about making a stock looking intake with velocity stacks inside or possibly even hiding ITB's. What motor specifically is this for? Now I kind of want to look into this too.
Bullitt Ride
> 6cyl
08/14/2013 at 11:23 |
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Well it looks like I won't have to do a write up for my build now since you've beat me to it. I'll just look like a copy cat lol.
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6cyl
> Bullitt Ride
08/14/2013 at 11:28 |
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You should do a write up here on it. You are much further along than I am and have a really awesome build. I have read through it on R3V over and over and I'm sure people here would like to see what you've done too.
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ZeroOrDie - Powered By MZR
> 6cyl
08/14/2013 at 11:34 |
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A duratec/mz 4 cylinder from the ford/mazda line. Light little motors that have heads that flow really well in stock form. So they just need bolt ons. I'd love to swap one into a fox body. But I would still like to drive it on the street and keep it N/A hence the idea to hide things.
The stock intake plenum is fed by a throttle body it has tumble flaps and/or variable intake paths depending on the model. A lot of the intakes are rear facing FWD applications. So I'd like to make a better intake for a forward facing set up. There is the Miata intake and the Ranger intake. They are two different designs obviously one for a smaller revvy engine and one for a larger torque biased engine. So I am looking for both low to mid torque and high revving HP. And by high I mean 7-7500rpm. To keep it happy and healthy. People have taken the 2.0 duratec to over 9k in race trim.
End goal would be ~240hp in a ~2600lb wet weight car minus the driver. Would be easy to do with a foxbody. The 2.3lima weighs 375lbs wet and the durtatec probably ~175lbs wet. That is weight off the front end where it is heavy.
Check out the cosworth intake manifold for the duratec engine how it has trumpets on the inside. I want that hidden in the stock intake plenum which is plastic. It may be too small though for a hidden ITB set up unless the trumpets pointed downward.
I could go on and on about this. I've been planning this for a while. So once I get married/my own place I can start right away and save money on buying things having done the research already. In the fox body the Stock Lima 2.3(which i owned at one point) makes like ~88hp at the wheels. Stock Duratec 2.3 makes ~130hp at the wheels plus the weight savings. Sooooo that fact alone get me going. Let alone the aftermarket for the miata/focus/mustang is strong.
Selling anyone on this?
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6cyl
> Sparf
08/14/2013 at 21:20 |
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Another option would be to look into trying to find a DCOE carburetor manifold for your motor and then just get some standard DCOE throttle bodies
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Sparf
> 6cyl
08/14/2013 at 21:39 |
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After a quick Google search it seems like that could work as well, but after having a look under the hood earlier today I realized that the biggest issue is getting it to fit in the engine bay. The engine is mounted transversally leaning slightly towards the firewall, with the intake pointing towards it. There might possibly be enough room there (I couldn't see with all the wires and T-VIS intake manifold in the way), but it's going to be a damn tight fit!
CammedCTSV
> 6cyl
08/15/2013 at 08:33 |
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LSx Swap?
ohmysti
> 6cyl
08/15/2013 at 10:07 |
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Roland Manifolds makes some bits for the m20. Extrudabody sells their DCOE manifold, but they also make MT44 ( BMW M20 motor Toyota Throttle Bodies).
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6cyl
> ohmysti
08/15/2013 at 10:16 |
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Thank you I forgot to mention this. From what I have read these are semi-finished casts that need more machining done to them for injector ports and the oil return. On the up side you really can't beat the price.
nosafonug
> 6cyl
08/15/2013 at 11:18 |
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Hey, I believe that is my old dbilas intake manifold.
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6cyl
> nosafonug
08/15/2013 at 11:21 |
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Did you sell it a week or so ago?
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nosafonug
> 6cyl
08/15/2013 at 11:29 |
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Yes.
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nosafonug
> 6cyl
08/15/2013 at 11:38 |
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If you plan to nix the brake booster, I have just the thing for that.
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6cyl
> nosafonug
08/15/2013 at 11:39 |
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I was planning to try to keep it but what do you have?
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nosafonug
> 6cyl
08/15/2013 at 11:51 |
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Its a anodized firewall mount made by Massive in Canada. I also already modified the pedal set, which is necessary. I am not sure they still sell it new.
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6cyl
> nosafonug
08/15/2013 at 11:52 |
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Got any photos? I am curious to see what this looks like
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nosafonug
> nosafonug
08/15/2013 at 11:52 |
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Sadly I am parting out my e30 however I am at least restoring my e23.
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nosafonug
> 6cyl
08/15/2013 at 12:03 |
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And yes, it is for sale on that auction site under my account.
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nosafonug
> ohmysti
08/15/2013 at 13:34 |
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I looked into these guys before I had the dbilas. The other downside is that the runner length is really long. This works well for South Africa because the brake booster etc is behind the RH headlights.
hobo rubber fire
> 6cyl
08/16/2013 at 09:51 |
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One of the best write ups on here, ever. Please keep us updated.
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6cyl
> hobo rubber fire
08/16/2013 at 11:33 |
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Thank you, I will.
Delchamp
> 6cyl
03/14/2014 at 10:59 |
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There appears to be a new player in M20 ITB's in case you are interested. They are working on a carbon fiber airbox that clears the brake booster as I post this.
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6cyl
> Delchamp
03/14/2014 at 11:41 |
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Thanks. I had seen their stuff on ebay and youtube but had never found their website. The stuff these guys are doing is amazing! They are also have a roller cam set up for the m20. I want everything they make.
Frank Porro
> 6cyl
04/01/2014 at 15:31 |
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Aloha, fellow m20 builder, let me know if you need any dbilas measurements as there's one on my 87 e30 cabrio.
40mm itb's paired to tapered 40 to 44mm runners has been shown to be sufficient for 885 heads, even ported ones on 3.1L strokers.
As far as a plenum or Airbox, what do yo have in mind ? I purchased a carbon airbox intake that requires brake booster relocation, a friend is making me a 35mm brake booster to firewall spacer that will do away with intake to runner clearance issues., earlier last summer i cut box and imprinted booster profile on runner to illustrate issue, it patches up easily.
Im dreaming up Variable length runners as seen link, I mean, why not, I've experimented with 37mm (1 1/2") PVC pipes and they do clear
wbizarre - OEM fetishist
> 6cyl
05/12/2014 at 19:58 |
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Hey there! I just stumbled upon this post while googling m20 ITB's. Fantastic write-up. Are there any updates with the project? I know the thread is almost a year old, it's just really interesting. I hope all your ITB-having dreams come true, or already have.
brad
> CammedCTSV
09/19/2014 at 00:52 |
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any updates? i bought a dbilas last year for my m20 vert. still studying up but the goal is to stroke the motor and add both the dbilas and a supercharger.
good to see Frank Porro posting here as well. did you ever get that spacer sorted? what about the CF air box you were evaluating?
there's an e30.de car with dbilas itbs. it has a CF air box too but don't know who makes it
itranthelasttimeiparkedit
> 6cyl
10/03/2014 at 23:01 |
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man I am trying to decide between spec e30, m30 swap and now this...
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6cyl
> itranthelasttimeiparkedit
10/06/2014 at 19:28 |
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There is no bad option in that mix. I have read the the m30 can be a little front heavy but is otherwise a great upgrade.
...or turbo m20... ;)
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itranthelasttimeiparkedit
> 6cyl
10/06/2014 at 22:37 |
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as I've been researching it seems like an m30 is a better option for power versus turbo m20, and there two 535s in the junkyard here. I don't want to go insane, I think 250-300whp would be awesome (I have a 550i for a dd for comparison, right about that level of power. although I bet the 325 would be quick since it weighs half as much)
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6cyl
> itranthelasttimeiparkedit
10/08/2014 at 14:00 |
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I think unless you have the space time to strip a motor and rebuild it from the ground up (crank, rods, pistons, cam, valves) it is cheaper/easier to go the turbo route. Hard to beat NA power but also hard to create it.
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itranthelasttimeiparkedit
> 6cyl
10/09/2014 at 19:41 |
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I was actually thinking of doing that for fun, never dinked around in engine internals. the stock m20 runs great (knock on wood) so there is no rush