Had an idea in the BRZ/FR-S thread, and realized it might actually be kinda good.

"TheOnelectronic" (theoneelectronic) 08/02/2013 at 12:42 • Filed to: what if

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Instead of selling the BRZ and FR-S as two identical cars, let the FR-S keep the miata-esque sports car character, and give the BRZ, now called the FR-X, higher, longer-travel suspension, smaller wheels, bigger tires, an (optional!) WRX-level turbo motor, and underbody protection. Market it as a RWD Rally car.

Additionally, do a cross-promotion with Rally America. Have, as a factory option, a compliant roll cage and other safety devices such that someone could buy one, and drive it straight from the showroom onto the stage. Offer Subaru-branded, certified racing suits and helmets. Advertise the car in cooperation with RA, pushing the rally-ready angle with phrases like "Like Rally? Go do it." (I'm no marketer) Put Rally America signs and Banners in dealerships.

Why the rally promotion? Because honestly I think there are a lot of people, like myself up until very recently, who don't even know Rally America exists. They know of WRC, and they know they don't come round these parts. To them, rally is just as unobtainable as, say, Formula 1. I certainly had no idea that not only were there rallies being run in Missouri, Minnesota, and the like, but that I could go on SpecialStage, buy a used rally car in the proper division for sub-$10,000, get some safety gear, find someone crazy enough to co-drive for me, and go participate. I have the fine folks at Team O'Neill to thank for my enlightenment.

Hell, see if Caswell would get in on it. I know he's a BMW guy, but it could help push the message that rally cars don't have to be AWD to be competitive, and additionally, that RWD rally cars are fun as shit. You may not go very fast, but you look awesome doing it. Get Codemasters in on it; cross-promote it with the DiRT series. Whine all you'd like about the gymkhana, but DiRT 3 allowed you to race across the sahara in a tiny little RWD Opel. I think it's fair to say those guys have enthusiasm for what they're doing.

I think it could result in a much greater profile for rally in North America, and might even lead to more Homologation Specials. Imagine if other companies got in on the act: Focus XT? Sonic RS-X?

Hell, Mustangs!

http://www.stangtv.com/forum/attachme…

Point is, who wouldn't want a Subaru-built, low-budget Rally Fighter?

This is all just fanciful wonderings, and I'm sure there are so, so many things I'm not thinking of, but it's a neat little idle thought.

ncasolowork2 > TheOnelectronic 08/02/2013 at 12:44

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No.

TheOnelectronic > ncasolowork2 08/02/2013 at 12:45

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TheOnelectronic > ncasolowork2 08/02/2013 at 12:48

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But seriously, anything to add beyond just "No."?

If you know of some reason why the FR-S and BRZ should continue to be sold alongside each other with minute changes, I'm all ears.

ncasolowork2 > TheOnelectronic 08/02/2013 at 12:53

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I'm not opposed to distinguishing the two models as unique products. The idea of a RWD rally car made by Subaru seems quite pointless. There's a reason RWD rally cars and rally cross cars don't exist any more. Just how many people would that design market to? It also destroys what the car is.

I would not at all be opposed to increasing the performance of the car, but for the track not the dirt.

For Sweden > TheOnelectronic 08/02/2013 at 12:54

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Chances of profitability: Zero

J. Walter Weatherman > TheOnelectronic 08/02/2013 at 12:55

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As someone that adores the Rally Fighter, I heartily approve of this. We could call it the Rally Fighter Fighter!

Then again, my judgment is pretty suspect, because I think that pretty much every car would be made better with a version that is higher, with longer suspension travel and underbody armor.

Paul, Man of Mustangs > TheOnelectronic 08/02/2013 at 12:59

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Liek dis?

Sir Halffast > TheOnelectronic 08/02/2013 at 13:00

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Two things, one technical and the other practical.

1) I think the biggest problem is that the cars are produced on the same assembly line, so that would be more difficult to implement than you may think.

2) Part of the purpose behind selling the stripped down version was to make it easier for folks to do this on their own, so I suspect that they are more interested in letting racers do it on their own.

Maybe there will be a factory team at some point, I certainly would like to see that. In the end though, it is a car that was made for the purpose of being the single most perfect inexpensive driver's car on the market. My guess is that they won't want to do the things that you suggest from the factory because of R&D costs.

TheOnelectronic > ncasolowork2 08/02/2013 at 13:04

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"There's a reason RWD rally cars and rally cross cars don't exist any more."

Bill Caswell? Who's that?

RWD rally is absolutely still a thing. This is kind of what I mean: General awareness focuses almost exclusively on WRC. Even the Caswell story is usually "Bill Caswell races $500 BMW at WRC Mexico," leaving out the fact that he was racing in the Rally America race that was held concurrently, not in a WRC rally. (Please correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I'm almost entirely certain.)

Under Rally America rules in the "beginner" categories, IIRC, AWD cars are generally limited to 3.0 liters NA. RWD cars can go up to 5.0L. That means that with RWD, you sacrifice some grip but you get more power. It results in a significantly different experience. This isn't about building the absolute fastest car through a stage, it's about having fun; and throwing up big rooster tails of dirt and going sideways around every turn? That's fun.

Hell, I'd wager that at the amateur level, there are more 2wd rally cars than AWD. One of the most popular rally cars is the VW Golf.

The image didn't embed in the main post, but here are some RWD rally cars:

The goal isn't even to make the BRZ perform better on dirt. The changes I suggested were more to help it actually survive a rally or two without falling apart. If you're looking for a more track focused 86, under my idea you'd go to Toyota for that.

"Destroys what the car is"

What the car is, is a lightweight, fun-to-drive car. It's not a track missile, it's not meant to get the best times and go the fastest: If it was, they wouldn't sell it on Prius tires. The point of the car is to have fun.

dinobot666 > TheOnelectronic 08/02/2013 at 13:05

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Will Orders just entered such a car in the New England Forest Rally. It was a Toyota GT86 he brought over from Australia. He got a podium finish. Caswell has spent time in a Crawford tuned FR-S, but won't race in Rally America sanctioned races.

Will Orders in his GT86 rally prepped car:

Sir Halffast > For Sweden 08/02/2013 at 13:06

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Bingo.

TheOnelectronic > For Sweden 08/02/2013 at 13:08

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I wouldn't be so sure. Look at how many "Bros" call their Subarus rally cars. A lot of Subarus cachet in the industry is tied to its rally image.

TheOnelectronic > J. Walter Weatherman 08/02/2013 at 13:09

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I feel this way as well. I'm continuously pondering trying to fit Allroad suspension to my S4.

TheOnelectronic > Paul, Man of Mustangs 08/02/2013 at 13:10

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Not quite that extensively modified, but yep!

William Byrd > TheOnelectronic 08/02/2013 at 13:11

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If you are going to differentiate, let Subaru strap one of their turbos to it. Boom, different.

TheOnelectronic > Sir Halffast 08/02/2013 at 13:12

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Hmm. I didn't know they were built on the same line. That said, how difficult would it be to put one set of shocks on the FR-S, and the other on the BR-Z? They already use different body panels, so it's not like it's impossible to build each differently. The cage could definitely be an issue, though. That's really the only part of my suggestion that would require extensive extra effort.

Also, I don't think they sell the stripped version here, and my idea is much more about the marketing than the car.

TheOnelectronic > dinobot666 08/02/2013 at 13:13

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I think I used a picture of this car in my response to NCAsolo

TheOnelectronic > William Byrd 08/02/2013 at 13:14

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But that's already been said many, many times. :)

TheOnelectronic > dinobot666 08/02/2013 at 13:16

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Also, I feel like I've seen a couple of your comments grayed out. Have you been Authored here yet?

William Byrd > TheOnelectronic 08/02/2013 at 13:16

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Why Toyota/Subaru no listen to us!! :)

Oh wait, they are too busy making billions off of Corolla's (and Impreza's that look like Corolla's).

TheOnelectronic > William Byrd 08/02/2013 at 13:23

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Personally, I think a Turbo wouldn't help much. It would make the car faster, but on those tires, it could be too much power. On stickier tires, you lose a lot of the playfulness of the car.

It would also put them up against bigger RWD coupes, like the Genesis, 370Z, etc...

It would also negate the price advantage they have.

I think Toyota said it best when they said it was best left to the aftermarket.

dinobot666 > TheOnelectronic 08/02/2013 at 13:32

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I have, but I got in trouble for making fun of escalator posts on the front page. :(

EDIT: Snark is only okay if you're a content aggregation.

TheOnelectronic > dinobot666 08/02/2013 at 13:51

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None of that made any sense to me, but okay!

Dusty Ventures > TheOnelectronic 08/02/2013 at 16:29

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You're definitely right that RWD rallying is a thing, though most 2WD cars are FWD these days (you're also right that 2WD cars make up more than half the rally field). In regards to the WRC Mexico/Rally America thing: the regional/national subgroup at WRC Mexico is called the "Rally America" division, but has nothing to do with Rally America the organization. It's really confusing.

For Rally America rules (talking about the organization now) novices can only compete in open light, group 2, or production class. Engine rules for the two classes are as follows:

Open Light (AWD): normally-aspirated, max displacement of 2650cc for overhead cam engines, 3313 for pushrod engines.
Group 2 (2WD): no forced induction, the engine (at least the block) must be derived from a product line offered by the vehicle manufacturer, max displacement of 3080cc
Production (2WD & AWD): all engines/parts must match vehicle make/model/year, engine displacement no greater than 2650cc using the following multipliers:
Rotary = cc x 1.8 (max 1472 cc)
Turbocharged/supercharged = cc x 1.7 (max 1559 cc)
Four-wheel/all-wheel drive = cc x 1.3 (max 2038 cc)
Pushrod, single cam in block = cc x 0.8 (max 3312 cc)
Diesel = cc x 0.8 (max 3312 cc)

Open AWD class and Group 5 (basically open 2WD class) allow displacement up to 5100cc (using the same rotary (max 2833 cc), turbo/supercharged (max 3000cc), and pushrod (max 6375 cc) multipliers as listed above). However the Open AWD class requires a 32mm engine inlet restrictor, limiting engine power to around 300-350hp. There's no restrictor on Group 5 engines, so hp is however much you can squeeze out of 5.1L

If it is built properly and raced properly a 2WD/RWD car can be SCARY fast. Will Orders in his incredible twin scroll Toyota GT86 was 6th fastest at the New England Forest Rally this past weekend, being beat by four AWD cars and a FWD Fiesta driven by WRC Academy driver Brendan Reeves. You'll be seeing LOTS more on the GT86 here on Jalopnik in the next month or so. It's a seriously insane build, and pretty much everything in the car will be sold by Nameless in various aftermarket kits. Also in the northwest Derek Nelson has earned back-to-back OVERALL wins in a RWD BMW M3.

Dusty Ventures > dinobot666 08/02/2013 at 16:34

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It wasn't brought over from Australia. It's actually a US-spec LHD Scion that was built by Nameless Performance in Washington and rebadged as a GT86 because Will's from Oz. It finished second in 2WD and 7th overall (he was actually 6th fastest but got hit with a BS penalty). The car will be a Jalopnik feature in the near future.

dinobot666 > Dusty Ventures 08/02/2013 at 17:08

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Excellent. Thanks for the juicy info on the car. Can't wait to see the feature story on it soon. The Silvia he ran in RA was extremely fast as well.

Dusty Ventures > dinobot666 08/02/2013 at 17:42

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The Slivia was bonkers. Variable boost, 400 horsepower in its lowest setting, an alleged 600 max. Even at PIR on the tarmac he had trouble putting all the power down (though he was on gravel tires so that didn't help).

TheOnelectronic > Dusty Ventures 08/02/2013 at 19:39

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Thanks for the corrections. I was hoping you'd be able to give some more specifics. It's been a while since I looked at the rulebook.

I will remember that Rally America/Rally America distinction in the future. (I hope.)

Dusty Ventures > TheOnelectronic 08/02/2013 at 20:50

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It's pretty confusing and kinda dumb to be sure. But neither side will yield and change the name so we're stuck with it, at least until the powers that be run Rally America into the ground and NASA Rally Sport becomes the premier rally organization in the U.S.