What does it cost to wage an airborne fire campaign?

"Grindintosecond" (Grindintosecond) 09/11/2020 at 12:51 • Filed to: Planelopnik

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It costs money. No doubt about that. There are planes owned by states, such as California’s Cal-Fire and their S-2's which can be ready and off the ground and at the fire in a canyon in twenty minutes, and then planes run by seasonal contracts services. But then there is the “call as needed” services such as the Global Supertanker Services 747 above, or the 10-Tanker guys DC-10's as well. But you gotta bring several briefcases of cash for that sort of air-show, plus they are so wide, they cannot be used inside canyons, more ridge drops, and wider prevention line areas. You had also better justify the cost, as the cost to fight the fire vs. letting it burn naturally is hard to compare in the heat of the moment but is a more natural way of the earth cleaning itself, in the end. (bad pun, I know)

So let us look at the costs involved.

DC-10:  
Should you require, it demands a $50,000 per day readiness rate, plus $22,000 per hour flight costs. To put that “why” question into perspective, I talked with some DC-10 guys while riding their jumpseat at 5am, and asked about fuel burns. They will burn 220,000 pounds of fuel from Japan to Louisville (UPS) and it does not have an economy cruise speed. There was no such thing when they designed it. It burns a lot of fuel, but the best part is the spare parts are numerous and cheap since only cargo services operate them these days. But if you need 10,800 gallons of retardant right now, it is good.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

There are also relatively newer bombers from Erickson and Coulson,

the md-87

and 737ng, both still used by airlines.

The Bae-146 primarily from Neptune aviation.

All carry from 3,000-4,000 gallons and have similar costs to operate at somewhere around $30,000 per day ready and $10,000 per hour to fly.

It takes Coulson about 60,000 man-hours to convert a 737 into a bomber, and they are finishing or have finished their 7th example recently. And back in 2016, Erickson was working out kinks in their MD -87 based systems, engine surges, etc. but that is all working well now.

And let us not forget their c-130!

Which costs more...but it is highly flexible in application systems.

But, if you want the big stick, the big middle finger to the fire, there is the 747, fielded by Global Supertanker Services. It was a Japan Air Lines plane first, then converted to cargo by Evergreen, who built it into a tanker saying they were ready to convert four of them, but they went out of business. Global Supertanker took over the project and now, it can paint a retardant path 1 mile long. It also costs a minimum $165,000 for three days, plus $16,500 per flight hour. (Weirdly less than a dc-10 ??) A kicker here is there is only one.

Add to all of these planes the cost of retardant at $2.50-$3.50/gallon, and you have big price tags all around, especially when over a million gallons get dropped in three days day.

Additional costs are wear and tear, not just on planes, but on pilots. The cockpit is extraordinarily busy. Ground proximity, airspeeds, but also planning the exit strategy from the steep descent to target a fire, and someone to watch that aspect while the pilot tries to avoid fixation and tunnel vision to hit that fire real good.

......so they don’t hit the ground on the way out....(language warning at end)

That is exactly what happened to the near-crash of the Bae-146. Fixation. The crew filed a report on it and got to work training themselves to prevent that happening again. but sometimes, t hings do get hit, such as a Lockheed Electra four-engined turboprop (P3.orion anyone?) Hit a tree on September 6th this year, operating out of Chico, CA. They had no idea they hit a tree until they landed and a mechanic pointed out damage their outboard left wing.

Seen here is a different L-188. W hen in it, it is a dangerous and low visibility place .

The crews today have many layers of operating procedures and it is very hard work to stay safe. Gone are the days like what the movie Always showed. Yeah, they wanted to be safe, but they weren’t exactly that safe in that example.

So the total cost to fight a fire had better be worth it if the big guns are brought out, which brings the question of whether to fight it or not. Letting it burn may be best, but monitoring is always necessary. which is why Cal-Fire maintains over a dozen OV-10a broncos to spot fires, and also lead in the big newer faster jet bombers we have today.

There is no simple solution which means many solutions from direct application helicopters and smaller planes are required in addition to these larger planes that lay down prevention lines so the fires won’t cross over into towns and neighborhoods. It means expense. a lot of it. Money flows here, but the people providing the services don’t see that much of it. The DC-10 firebomber pilots might make $ 60-70k. A FedEx/UPS dc-10 pilot makes orders of magnitude more. You might say all of the cash to fight the fire gets....wait for it....

burned up!

slap me in the comments.

For Sweden > Grindintosecond 09/11/2020 at 12:55

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Best I can do is an old Soviet troop transport with no maintenance records

ttyymmnn > Grindintosecond 09/11/2020 at 13:02

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I hadn’t seen that Electra tanker before. One thing I like is seeing the old birds doing new tricks. As long as the wings don’t stress off .

Grindintosecond > ttyymmnn 09/11/2020 at 13:04

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Yeah im not clicking on that. i cant watch that video again. Its one thing to have a structural failure, but another to be up there working controls that arent connected to anything anymore.

ttyymmnn > Grindintosecond 09/11/2020 at 13:12

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As Columbia was burning up in the atmosphere, Pilot William McCool was firing up the APU to land it manually. Flying it to the end. It’s similar to the F1 drivers who continue to steer even when both front wheels are gone. Instinct at work. 

bob and john > ttyymmnn 09/11/2020 at 13:27

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jesus fuck christ

ttyymmnn > bob and john 09/11/2020 at 13:41

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Pretty much. Should have put a trigger warning on that video saying that three guys died in that crash. 

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > bob and john 09/11/2020 at 13:52

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Yeah, what he said. Yikes.

AestheticsInMotion > Grindintosecond 09/11/2020 at 14:01

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60-70k to deal with that? No thanks. Although I gotta wonder how much work those pilots put in for the salary. Are they flying year round, or doing just a couple sweeps per year?

Grindintosecond > AestheticsInMotion 09/11/2020 at 14:10

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Its probably salary to keep them. I know tanker ten doesn’t have many pilots and who they have are involved in the project more than just flying it so there may be a goal bonus or something. But it's whatever work they get I imagine. This year, they could be very busy.  

Otto-the-Croatian-'Whoops my Volvo is a sedan' > Grindintosecond 09/11/2020 at 14:16

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These are all so cool. We use these water bombers which collect seawater in the hull and drop it down. Smaller than those you posted since we probably don’t have such huge scale fires as in the US...

Picking up the water:

Lol imagine going for a swim and getting picked up by this.

Inside view:

Grindintosecond > Otto-the-Croatian-'Whoops my Volvo is a sedan' 09/11/2020 at 14:24

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The CL’s are awesome planes. really capable and flexible.

WilliamsSW > ttyymmnn 09/11/2020 at 14:36

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That link is not for the faint of heart. At all.

(I’ve seen it before this though)

WilliamsSW > Grindintosecond 09/11/2020 at 14:38

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I would hope it’s salary and the vast majority of their time is spent training.  Doesn’t seem like a gig you could quickly transition into from driving canceled checks around the sky. 

WilliamsSW > Otto-the-Croatian-'Whoops my Volvo is a sedan' 09/11/2020 at 14:39

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I’ve seen one of these (maybe the exact same one?) in action and up close  at Oshkosh. Very cool aircraft. 

ttyymmnn > WilliamsSW 09/11/2020 at 15:00

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Should have put a trigger warning on it. As it is, I didn’t post the video itself. It’s a gut punch.

WilliamsSW > ttyymmnn 09/11/2020 at 15:06

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I’ve seen it before, knew what it would be, and clicked anyways, so I’m certainly not faulting you for that.

3point8isgreat > ttyymmnn 09/11/2020 at 16:45

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I hadn't seen it, but knew what to expect. Thanks for the solemn reminder of what happens if I mess up at my job. (Aerospace stress and fatigue.) Its easy to get lost in the detail parts and lose sight of the bigger picture. 

Grindintosecond > WilliamsSW 09/11/2020 at 18:54

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I was once called by a fire company, looking at resumes, who asked if i had any time with round (radial) engines. Nope. It was a very short call. They look for people who fit a type. Who want the challenge but also have backgrounds outside of the sterile airline and highly unionized environment. Something I was not yet in. I had a dirty all- hours cargo background then, just turbine power only. So they passed on me. So the check flyers might not have the time they want, but if you got into anythign bigger, say a 50's tech Convair to fly pallets of axles in and out of Detroit, you might be a serious choice.

WilliamsSW > Grindintosecond 09/11/2020 at 19:23

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Yeah I was exaggerating about the check flyers (are those all singles or piston twins?) but I would think they really need a certain type for that job.  Partly to find pilots who want the challenge, partly to find pilots who won’t go running back to flying the line first chance they get, too. 

Grindintosecond > WilliamsSW 09/11/2020 at 23:49

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The check flyers have pretty much evaporated. Air net systems (starcheck) was the big player in that and they worked for over 300 big banks. But now just run time sensitive documents and scientific stuff since bank transfers are now mostly digital. They used anything from learjets to beech barons and caravans. I used to run fed reserve checks in a caravan for someone else. Met quite a few guys running things around at night.

CaptDale - is secretly British > Grindintosecond 09/13/2020 at 21:37

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Man that is a lot of cash. I know the 747 was down here for one of our fires recently, but I think it has been moved north.