"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn)
09/10/2020 at 10:58 • Filed to: Planelopnik
3
34|
"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn)
09/10/2020 at 10:58 • Filed to: Planelopnik | 3
| 34 |
The captain of the Lithuanian Klasjet Boeing had 4,300 hours to his credit, while the first officer had “about 2,000" hours. Yet when the autopilots failed, they struggled to maintain altitude, glide slope, or even fly in a straight line, as they attempted to return to the airport. Visibility was not great, but b oth pilots had instrument ratings, and there’s no reason why the flight could not have continued its scheduled destination , except that it required the pilots to actually fly the plane . The crew missed two approaches to the origin airport before diverting to a nearby military airport, which called for another meandering flight across the countryside. Passengers and crew were unhurt.
!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
But flight-data recorder information, it says, clearly shows the crew had “considerable problems maintaining the basic flight parameters”, including altitude, airspeed and heading, particularly during turns.
“The problems maintaining the basic flight parameters due to the absence of automatic control systems indicates that neither the decision-making nor the co-operation between the crew were adequate,” the inquiry says.
facw
> ttyymmnn
09/10/2020 at 11:04 |
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It’s pretty mind-boggling that you could amass ~6000 hours without having basic airmanship skills (I guess they had some, I mean they did get it on the ground eventually). I guess you only need to get through an academy that teaches you the bare minimum required to pass the test once.
Maxima Speed
> ttyymmnn
09/10/2020 at 11:09 |
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How is that even possible? Ive got 3 hours actual hands on controlS fly time in a cessna and am not a pilot but i can hold a course and fly level. Granted a big jet is different but i would think it would actually be pretty high performance and easy to fly compared to a cessna 172 or 182. Am I completely wrong?
For Sweden
> ttyymmnn
09/10/2020 at 11:13 |
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Post-Soviet flight training is a bit of a disaster.
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ttyymmnn
> Maxima Speed
09/10/2020 at 11:14 |
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Not being a pilot, I have no idea. But this is basic airmanship and they failed. Not utterly, because that would be a smoking hole in the ground. I do think, though, that there are a lot of airline pilots out there who begin their flying career with an airline and a simulator, rather than coming up through GA and flying since they were 16. It’s kind of like putting somebody in a car for the first time at age 20 when they’ve spent their life riding a bike or walking. In this country, with its culture of driving, kids are exposed to driving at a young age and it’s part of life.
jminer
> ttyymmnn
09/10/2020 at 11:15 |
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While the automation of flying has in general (we see you there 737 max) made flying much safer than before the downside is the decline of the specialized skills needed to fly these suckers manually.
user314
> ttyymmnn
09/10/2020 at 11:15 |
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That’s...
not encouraging. I could see having issues with glide slope, but that flight
path looks like me just dicking around on MSFS.
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ttyymmnn
> For Sweden
09/10/2020 at 11:17 |
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ttyymmnn
> jminer
09/10/2020 at 11:18 |
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ttyymmnn
> user314
09/10/2020 at 11:19 |
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WilliamsSW
> Maxima Speed
09/10/2020 at 11:22 |
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I’m just a private pilot (and we have a few airline pilots here on Oppo who know way better) but my understanding is that the big jets are harder to hand fly, not easier. Controls are slower to react (especially the engines) and the aircraft are far more aerodynamic, so pitch changes can result in big airspeed changes more quickly.
But that is, you know, THEIR JOB. This is scary.
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jminer
> ttyymmnn
09/10/2020 at 11:23 |
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Yep, that cartoon summarizes it really well.
Even though I’m a system engineer for a living (not planes) I am weary of relying on logic and programming for life safety things.
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WilliamsSW
> ttyymmnn
09/10/2020 at 11:23 |
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And the captain was an instructor?
That’s... not good.
Only Vespas...
> ttyymmnn
09/10/2020 at 11:31 |
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Yes, it’s sad. Systems M anagers vs. P ilots. Especially in developing countries, General Aviation is either non-existent or too expensive for young pilots. Before WWII a number of nations trained pilots in gliders launched by bungees, vehicles or air tows. Cheap and very effective in developing stick and rudder skills. Additionally, I once asked a couple of Air Force pilots if they flew for fun in GA aircraft. Some replied it was too risky... not life threatening, but license threatening. If you are a mistake in a Piper it effects yo ur license the same as if you were in the lef t seat of Air Force One.
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ttyymmnn
> WilliamsSW
09/10/2020 at 11:33 |
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Yes. He teaches how to monitor the AP.
HammerheadFistpunch
> ttyymmnn
09/10/2020 at 11:35 |
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So how many hours of flying did they actually have, compared to the autopilots hours.
Cé hé sin
> ttyymmnn
09/10/2020 at 11:38 |
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Chances of ending up in a hole in the ground are rather less if you’re in an A320 or other modern plane though.
VincentMalamute-Kim
> ttyymmnn
09/10/2020 at 11:40 |
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I would argue that all the driver aids create a similar effect. Nav systems means people no longer how to read paper maps or dead recon. Backup cameras, blind spot monitoring, active cruise mean people have less situational awareness. etc.
I agree some tech is good. ABS, emergency braking, and back up cameras are still good for SUVs or cars that can’t see kids immediately behind the car.
Or just go to full self-driving that actually works and completely remove the driver. Highways would s
till be
safer overall
even taking into account oc
casional system failures like the AP and these two pilots.
Grindintosecond
> ttyymmnn
09/10/2020 at 12:14 |
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Where do I begin.
Klasjet is a Lithuinanean charter private and corporate airline.
The 737-500 is a short body version of the 300 which is layed out with all steam-gauges. Not a single flat panel to be found. Not tough to operate, I’ve flown a 300, same cockpit layout. The lav systems stink though. God.
I can’t find anywhere in my interneting what the previous flight history of the crew has been. Befor ethose 4,300 hours, what did the captain do? Before those 2,000 hours, what did the FO do?
Basic attitude flying is such a solid requirement. The only reason I can think of that the plane could be all ove rthe place like that is if the crew itself, which is definitely a big factor in flying a -500, could have been completely incohesive. Are they using paper charts and not ipad based charts? possibly! If the FO was just a babysitter for the seat to fulfill requirements, that FO could easily have been more of a hiderance than a help making the captain distracted so much in doing everything, that it coiuld be easy to let the panel scan wander or fixate.
Rule Number one from the FAA: Fly the plane.
Number 2: Maintain control.
Number 3: Then do other things to reduce risk and solve a problem.
in short: Aviate, Navigate, Communicate...IN THAT ORDER!
This is 2nd and third world aviation. Cultural biases and preferences come first to the rules of a job. Fingerbanging buttons and flipping switches and resetting breakers on a whim seem to come first instead of going to the memory items and checklist cards and proper procedure, which is the safe and quick and best way to solve any problem. In a 737, or Airbus, whatever the plane, this is a level of complexity that doing everything the way it should be done from the start, every time, no variance, and as trained, is the only safe way to run the show becasue if anything happens out of the ordinary, then you don’t have to try and remember how it needs to be done...you know...and you are doing it.
Shoot if things are really bad and in a red mist, go around, ask for vectors for time, compose yourself, and get a plan together, then carefully administrate that plan one item at a time.
Thats proper decision making.
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ttyymmnn
> VincentMalamute-Kim
09/10/2020 at 12:16 |
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I’m teaching my oldest to drive, and I won’t let him use the backup camera except to check distance when parallel parking and to make a first check to see if area is clear. Head up, look out the windows, use the mirrors.
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Grindintosecond
> ttyymmnn
09/10/2020 at 12:22 |
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Grindintosecond
> jminer
09/10/2020 at 12:23 |
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We use a logic layer on automation. VVMI. Verbalize-verify-monitor-intervene. So at least we talked about it and agreed as to what garbage we put in the machine, and when it goes nuts, were watching it and can turn it off before it does something dumb.
Future next gen S2000 owner
> ttyymmnn
09/10/2020 at 12:28 |
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That is funnier than it should be.
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Grindintosecond
> Cé hé sin
09/10/2020 at 12:34 |
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umm....Airfrance 447 would disagree with you. When the pilots didnt act properly to a system problem. An Airbus p ut it in the ocean from cruise altitude, 228 dead, totally avoidable if they used proper crew management.
have some statistics on what is and isnt safe. Before any airbus safety rates come the 737 and 757 safety rates first.
Ever hear the phrase that guns dont kill people, its the person holding the gun that does it? The crews abilities are a majority shareholder in the safety.
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ttyymmnn
> Cé hé sin
09/10/2020 at 12:50 |
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I don’t exactly remember the story here. I think the plane thought it was still in landing mode when the pilots really wanted to TOGA.
RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars
> VincentMalamute-Kim
09/10/2020 at 16:16 |
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I still think that modern cars are WAY too tech heavy, that’s why I am going to miss my Accent when it’s gone....no ANYTHING....no power anything, no ABS, no ECS, no Cruise, no nav, no nothin’! You can’t stay good at a skill if the technology does it for you....
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Cé hé sin
> Grindintosecond
09/10/2020 at 16:52 |
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But no matter how often
you hear the Air France crash quoted, flying remains safer now than it has ever been.
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VincentMalamute-Kim
> ttyymmnn
09/10/2020 at 17:24 |
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Good dad.
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VincentMalamute-Kim
> RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars
09/10/2020 at 17:27 |
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I bet a lot of Oppos agree.
You have to have power windows don’t you?
Plus, no tech means better reliability and easier to fix. Although
I admit I was stoked when I added
a remote door lock/unlock button fob
to my old Forester
.
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RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars
> VincentMalamute-Kim
09/10/2020 at 17:55 |
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NOPERS, haha! No power windows, no power mirrors, no cruise, no ABS, no A/C, no ECS, no remote locking/power locks, manual transmission...Humdrum is called Humdrum for a reason, but I love her all the more for it...she’s almost an oddity nowadays (for something as modern as a 2009)
! :P
I DO
have....TWO 12v sockets (factory!) and an Aux. Input jack on my factory CD player though! :P
And I’ve added a dashcam and installed OEM-style foglights! But that’s it...
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VincentMalamute-Kim
> RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars
09/10/2020 at 18:00 |
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You have a
rare
model! Will be worth a lot in the future, I’m sure. I seriously did not know any car could be bought with rollup windows. Or AC even. I’m impressed by the AUX jack.
Reminds me - I have to install a dashcam to my Sienna.
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VincentMalamute-Kim
> RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars
09/10/2020 at 19:06 |
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We need an Oppo contest for least contented car. It may be a short contest. I think you’ve already won.
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RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars
> VincentMalamute-Kim
09/10/2020 at 23:15 |
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Haha, it would have to be up there! :P
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RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars
> VincentMalamute-Kim
09/10/2020 at 23:16 |
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Low-trim Accents and Kia Rios (which are related to the MC Accent, like mine) with similar lack of features are not that uncommon up here in Nova Scotia, though I still imagine most would have auto transmissions at least...
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VincentMalamute-Kim
> RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars
09/10/2020 at 23:58 |
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ah, figures, it’s a Canadian car. I bet cars with rollup windows are much more rare in the US. Even if they’re low-trim Accents and Rios here.