Does GM have a thing for burning money?

"BaconSandwich is tasty." (baconsandwich) 09/08/2020 at 12:12 • Filed to: None

1

43

Because it seems like investing $2 billion in a company that has yet to produce anything is the equivalent of burning money without the fire:

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

I mean, if they can actually produce something, good for them. But a few problems with this plan:

1. There’s very little hydrogen filling infrastructure outside of California.
2. $2B for a 11% of a company that hasn’t actually produced anything, other than a few renders.
3. Why is GM investing in hydrogen vehicles, when EVs (at least for smaller passenger vehicles) seems to be the way to go?

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > BaconSandwich is tasty. 09/08/2020 at 12:21

4

I’ve seen enough Sharktank to know that 2 billion 11% of an upstart is insane

That basically saying that this company that has produce nothing, and made no income is worth 20 Billion dollars. 

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > BaconSandwich is tasty. 09/08/2020 at 12:21

8

Obviously they are trying to one up Ford’s deal with Rivian.

404 - User No Longer Available > BaconSandwich is tasty. 09/08/2020 at 12:23

8

Apparently the bailout worked out very well for a few execs them. ¯\_()_/¯

Just Jeepin' > BaconSandwich is tasty. 09/08/2020 at 12:23

10

I appreciate the fact that not everyone is sold on EVs for all purposes. Semis seem like a reasonable use for hydrogen (especially if you can concentrate on the interstate system for refueling stations without having to solve the entire country) , and we need to not close any options prematurely.

Toyota’s pretty smart, and afaik they haven’t given up on hydrogen yet.

For Sweden > BaconSandwich is tasty. 09/08/2020 at 12:28

3

Cash on hand is just going to get taxed; might as well spend it

ShrimpHappens, née WJalopy > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 09/08/2020 at 12:34

1

Came to say the same.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 09/08/2020 at 12:34

4

At Rivian had real working vehicles to show people. And powertrains that could easily be ploppped into a Ford product or two. 

WilliamsSW > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 09/08/2020 at 12:38

5

Rivian >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nikola

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > WilliamsSW 09/08/2020 at 12:55

2

Which is why this investment isn’t particularly wise.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles 09/08/2020 at 12:57

3

Rivian is a startup that is actually doing it right and Nikola is your average vaporware.

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > BaconSandwich is tasty. 09/08/2020 at 13:19

2

Does GM have a thing for burning money? Here’s an answer...

ranwhenparked > Just Jeepin' 09/08/2020 at 13:20

1

At one point, Ford was doing research on dual fuel internal combustion engines that could burn either hydrogen or gasoline, depending on what was available. The idea was that was supposed to be a transitional/bridging technology until there was enough of an infrastructure in place to make fuel cells practical. It’s basically prewar technology, the ICE engines in Zeppelin airships often burned hydrogen. But, nothing seems to have ever come of it. Whatever the practicality or lack thereof hydrogen fuel has, that idea really seemed way more actionable  than fuel cells, anyway.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 09/08/2020 at 13:23

1

Yeah the Rivian looks really cool, even I want one. At this point in time I would buy a plug in hybrid Bronco over that if the EV range was at least 35 miles I think because I can’t afford both. I drive about 15.5 miles to work usually, so if I could do a normal commute in a Bronco that I can use for other stuff and use gas, I would be pretty happy. Of course there are no charging stations at my condo complex, that is another issue. But with GM getting involved they might solve their issues. 

BaconSandwich is tasty. > Just Jeepin' 09/08/2020 at 13:26

2

My beef with hydrogen is as follows:

1. The majority of it is still produced by cracking methane. This means oil and gas companies still have a hand in things, and that it’s no environmentally better than just outright burning natural gas as is . I’d even go so far as to guess that converting it to hydrogen and using that in a fuel cell ends up being net-worse in terms of “amount of actual goods moved per amount of gas extracted”.
2. The infrastructure is really expensive compared to EV infrastructure. That’s going to make it a hard sell for station operators.
3. No one talks about hydrogen embrittlement. It sounds like it is still an issue.

That said, I’m still fine with companies investing in it for things like semi-trucks.  I just don’t like how Toyota is pushing it as the long-game for the average consumer vehicle.  They are betting on the wrong horse.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 09/08/2020 at 13:27

1

Hey, at least Saturn produced cars!

WilliamsSW > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 09/08/2020 at 13:27

0

I've worked with several people who are very high up at Nikola.  

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 09/08/2020 at 13:30

0

GM getting invo lved

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

solve their iss ues

You forgot

create more issu es than they solve

A plug in hybrid Bronco would be amazing for what most people use it for. 

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > WilliamsSW 09/08/2020 at 13:31

1

And has that lent you any insight?

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 09/08/2020 at 13:36

1

They said they are making a hybrid, I hope that means plug in range. Maybe 2021- 2022 they said, I’m sure they are working on it and rolling out the normal ones to print money, I would wait to buy a certified one off a two year lease personally . My wagon is a great height for putting my kayak on and off the rack, it’s a big boat and I am not huge. But it is also a low car, I didn’t drop the car an inch or two with my new wheels on purpose but the Acura is pretty low compared to most, I compare it to cars I park next to, low roof and low clearance.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 09/08/2020 at 13:43

0

I can get that. And of course the Bronco is just a really cool car. The TSX wagon is cool, but not in the same way. Plus, it’s nice to switch things up.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > BaconSandwich is tasty. 09/08/2020 at 13:49

2

They may just want the carbon offset credits.

Over the past 8 years, the growth of Tesla’s regulatory credits revenue from just $41 million in 2012 to $594 million in 2019 represents a growth of roughly 15X. The figure in 2019 alone produces a growth rate of 42% on a year on year basis when Tesla managed to recognize $594 million in regulatory credits sales compared to $419 million a year earlier.

https://stockdividendscreener.com/auto-manufacturers/teslas-regulatory-credits-revenue/

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 09/08/2020 at 13:53

1

Yeah it’s a tough choice for me, the TSX is a great car to drive on the road, I doubt the Bronco is, then again the SF streets are so bad now in terms of not being repaved and the patches and plates from so much construction, I feel like I need some tires and suspension. I may do an engine and tranny swap with the M37 someday so I can drive it more. I have some tough decisions to make since I’m not Jay Leno. If I sold the Z I could do whatever I want to the M37. I don’t want to sell it but my wife and dog hate it, so it’s just for me. The M37 could be a useful ride and a convertible, with updated stuff bolted on they are pretty decent, I drove one once, it’s like driving a 70's Caddy. 

BaconSandwich is tasty. > WilliamsSW 09/08/2020 at 13:55

2

I don’t question their engineering prowess . They’ve definitely got at least a few smart people working fore them. I just question them valuing themselves at such a high amount without having a single working prototype. They showed off an ATV thing a while back that was pretty neat, but it seems every other month they are showing off renders of their next product... but they haven’t built a single working vehicle since the ATV.

In that regard, they seem a lot like the company I work for - always chasing after whatever the competition is doing, rather than carving out their own niche.

newnamesameme > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles 09/08/2020 at 13:58

2

Never underestimate the possibility that C-suite level GM types will have bonuses attached to Nikola’s stock price and that this sort of investment will lead to big bonuses for the guys at the top.

Whether or not this leads to a real vehicle is probably not entirely the point of this money. 

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 09/08/2020 at 14:12

0

I can understand why your dog isn’t a fan of the massive loud rattly military vehicle when she is used to the silky smooth TSX and the Merc.

Are the streets really that bad? 

WilliamsSW > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 09/08/2020 at 14:18

0

Yes.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 09/08/2020 at 14:26

1

Oh she hates the Z, she hasn’t been in the M37. The M37 has civilian tires and modern shocks, it actually rides very smooth on the road, I was really surprised. SF has dug up and patched a lot of streets for these new buildings all over the place. SO many apartment high rises have gone up in the last ten years. Then they never fix the busy streets because how can you shut them down? I haven’t been there in months, I hope they are working on it now. 

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > BaconSandwich is tasty. 09/08/2020 at 14:42

0

Plus side I could see is a locked in long term fuel cell customer. Also they’re going to want trim and body parts and anything to aid in economies of scale saves them money. 

WilliamsSW > BaconSandwich is tasty. 09/08/2020 at 14:47

1

The people that I know there aren’t engineers, so I can’t speak to that. My original comment above wasn’t particularly favorable to Nikola, let’s leave it at that.  

They’re not the ones valuing themselves though,   it’s the market that’s driving those values.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 09/08/2020 at 14:49

0

It's a great deal for Nikolai. I'm not convinced it's going to benefit GM though. Although maybe it's just for the carbon credits?

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 09/08/2020 at 14:50

0

Atlanta’s streets can be a bit bumpy in places but they have usually been pretty good about maintaining them. It is a problem where you can’t really shut down busy roads but doing it late at night in stages can save headache. There is one road with a crumbling foundation that is just totally borked that is on its last legs. Probably more than just that one actually.

Oh I didn’t know that. So Silvie doesn’t like the Z? Too noisy, too many vibrations, no windows to open in the back, too many smells, too fast. I probably wouldn’t like it either if I were her.

We haven’t really had any M37 content in a while. How are things with it?

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 09/08/2020 at 14:56

1

We have the electrical parts and we have to send the hubs/cores to get the disk brake kit. It has been really smoky where they are so I’m not sure if they sent them yet. I paid for the brakes already. Once again there is some delay, thanks covid, thanks fires... what next an asteroid hits Petaluma CA??

SF was also designed around horses and carriages so the roads they have are not getting better, they have tried one way streets but they just end up at the same places for the Golden Gate, Bay Bridge and the highway south. 

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 09/08/2020 at 15:32

0

Asteroid hits directly on your M37 and it takes the brunt of the impact. You’d be a national hero.

Just how close is it to final driving state?

One way streets really do work for downtown areas. Even with Atlanta’s uniquely nonsensical grid it is easy to get from one end to the other because of them. I suppose they want to avoid running traffic through residential areas and through super hilly terrain.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 09/08/2020 at 15:55

1

It could drive around but we wanted to get the turn signals hooked up to original style lights. There are some details to do that have nothing to do with roadworthiness , h e had some more little areas to paint too. We did think the drum brakes needed a rebuild and I decided why pay to get shitty brakes when I can pay a little more and change the fronts to disks that use Chevy parts. Several people have told me modern cars jump in front of them expecting the M37 to stop like a new truck.. If I ever do an engine swap I will order the kit for the rears too.

Aftermath:

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 09/08/2020 at 16:00

0

It confuses me when people seem to think every single car and semi on the road has the maneuverability and stopping power of their car. That’s simply not the case.

Having a normal car with rear drums I’ve almost run out of stopping power a few times. Almost .

The M37 wins that fight.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 09/08/2020 at 16:06

1

Well most people have no idea that old vehicles have very different brakes, my wife doesn’t even know how an engine works, nor does she care. I’m sure many have paid for the mistake. Yes an M37 will do some damage to a modern car, my dad said they would pound nails out of wood on top of the old Dodge fenders, the bumpers and frame are a million times stronger than that. The drums are supposedly a lot better than you think if they are in good shape, the truck was designed for a load of ammo and a trailer so they are big, but not 1970's 1 ton truck good, it should be a vast improvement. 

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 09/08/2020 at 16:11

0

The more livable it is the more miles you’ll feel like putting on it so that’s something you’d want to do sooner rather than later.

Also, some people have a death wish cutting in front of cars like they are telepathically communicating with the driver to tell them their intentions. I’ve seen so many near misses that way.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 09/08/2020 at 16:16

0

Oh and we have to put the lap belts in it, they had no seatbelts! Still no shoulder belts unless we want to weld something into it, maybe later with an engine swap, the top comes off so we can’t bolt up higher. I’m not thrilled with the tranny, but that’s what it has, I would like a better one but I don’t want to adapt one to this engine, it would make more sense to do that with the engine swap someday. I’m going to fuck up downshifting that thing, hopefully I can ge t used to it. Yeah anything helps to get more time in it, the brakes and power steering will give me some help. 

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 09/08/2020 at 16:30

0

Yes it strikes me as the sort of thing you just have to drive to figure out.

The seatbelt mounts do seem to be a difficulty if you want a shoulder restraint. 

BeaterGT > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 09/08/2020 at 21:49

1

Most economical car I’ve ever owned!

Groagun > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/08/2020 at 23:00

0

As of today, Nikola Motors has not earned any offset carbon tax credits.

pip bip - choose Corrour > BaconSandwich is tasty. 09/09/2020 at 04:16

0

Mary Barra is driving the company into the ground

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Groagun 09/09/2020 at 08:47

0

Right, but they’re clearly betting they will.