“The stone age didn’t end for lack of stones..."

"davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com" (davesaddiction) 09/01/2020 at 09:35 • Filed to: None

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One guy’s electric car experience. Probably for the best for long-term, widespread EV adoption that a ton of people didn’t buy a Leaf... Still some major hurdles to overcome for most people to feel comfortable choosing an EV: decent range in something that’s not cost-prohibitive, expanded infrastructure, more shops willing to do maintenance & repair as these cars age.

Driving an electric car requires adjustments in your lifestyle. It’s what a Wichita State University professor learned when he acquired an EV nearly a decade ago.

Bill Wentz recently talked with Wichita Eagle reporter Sara Spicer.

A distinguished professor emeritus of aerospace engineering at Wichita State, Wentz has always loved the environment. He has taught a class on sustainable energy and climate change at WSU for 10 years, and decided he wanted to reduce his carbon footprint, so he bought a Nissan Leaf, a fully electric vehicle.

In the U.S., Americans are less likely to buy electric cars because they are worried about the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! However, all of those things are changing, and if most people think about how they use their vehicles, they might see that electric cars are not a bad option, according to Wentz.

The biggest obstacle to owning an electric car is the price. There isn’t much of a used market for them yet and Kansas does not have a tax credit for them, like some other states. The federal tax credit, up to $7,500 according to the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , can help with the cost.

The !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , electric car owners are also saving money when they aren’t filling up the tank.

“The cost per mile is a little bit lower than in a gasoline car,” said Holger Meyer, an associate professor at Wichita State who teaches nuclear physics and owns an electric car. “It’s both the ease of mind of emitting less carbon from an electric car, but it’s also the cost. It’s actually cheaper to own, per mile, than a gasoline car.”

On average, fueling an electric car is half as much as a traditional gasoline vehicle, according to the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . A gallon of gasoline in Kansas costs about $2.06 and an electric eGallon costs about $1.25.

A recent !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! from the National Renewable Energy Laboratory found that electric cars can save customers thousands of dollars over several years compared to gasoline vehicles, but understanding how much money is saved can be difficult.

“Our sense is that consumers are also not very used to looking at the cost of electricity,” said Matteo Muratori, senior engineer and co-author of the study. “If you tell someone ‘Hey gasoline is $3 a gallon,’ that means something to people. If you say ‘electricity is 13 cents a kilowatt-hour,’ they’re like ‘okay.’ It’s just a metric that drivers are not used to.”

One of the things the study found is that one of the biggest ways owners of electric vehicles can save money, compared to gasoline vehicles, is charging their cars at home.

There are !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! for electric cars. Level 1, which charges 2-5 miles of use in an hour, is most often used at home. Level 2, which charges 10-20 miles per hour, can also be used at homes and businesses, according to the U.S. Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy.

The DC Fast Charge plugs can give cars 60-80 miles in 20 minutes and are usually found in public charging stations and along highways and interstates. These charging stations can get expensive as they charge by the minute. There is no flat rate, however, the four stations located at Town East Square cost $0.89 per minute for “fast charge” versus plugging in at home which costs about $0.13 per kilowatt-hour.

“Recharging your electric vehicle at home at night, can be twice or more as cheap as if you do it in the middle of the day at the public station,” Muratori said. “That’s something that consumers are not really used to. I never think about what time of the day it is when I go to the gas station. But electricity is more complicated than that, and so starting to get into this mindset where you charge, when you charge, do you use this slow changer or the fast charger, matters.”

Electric car owners refer to “range anxiety,” which is when they worry about not being able to make it home or to their next stop, due to the lack of charging stations.

“Sometimes I try to drive conservatively to make sure I get home before I need to plug in or you know make little concessions or I just plan ahead,” Meyer said.

While charging at home is the cheaper option, sometimes that isn’t always possible. While Meyer knows people who have regularly driven their electric cars across the country, when he needs to go very far, he rents a car or borrows one from a friend.

“If I do need to go somewhere over the 100-mile range, I just trade cars for the day with a friend,” he said. “I drive a gasoline car when I really need it. It happens a handful of times a year.”

The idea that you can’t just hop in a car and drive long distances is an adjustment for some.

“The mindset most people have is ‘I’ve got a car. I can go anywhere. I can drive around town. I could go to California tomorrow if I wanted. I just have to pay for the gas,’ and you just have to adjust to that,” Wentz said.

Instead, thinking about buying a car that meets your everyday needs, going to and from work and around town, instead of all the possibilities of what you might need, might help and save money in the long run, advocates say.

Wentz drives a 2019 Nissan Leaf and is familiar with what causes the vehicle’s range to go up or down, such as running the air conditioning.

“I don’t get range anxiety because I know, despite what that says, I cannot go 200 miles 60 miles an hour in the country,” Wentz said. “I just keep an eye out and it tells you how much you have left… It’ll go down when we’re driving fast. It’s computing all the time so it updates itself.”

Environmentalists in Wichita are preparing for an online event on Oct. 3 during National Drive Electric Week to raise awareness of how electric vehicles have changed and their importance in reducing carbon emissions, which cause climate change.

“The stone age didn’t end for lack of stones and the oil age won’t end because we burned the last gallon of oil,” Meyer said. “For me, personally, really the carbon emission was the most important factor, and being able to live with a clean conscience about climate change and leaving a healthy planet for my children.”

Wichita’s virtual celebration of Drive Electric Week is expected to feature videos and information for those considering going electric as well as an electric vehicle drag race. Find more information on the Facebook page, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/01/2020 at 09:59

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It didn’t, but b ronze had to prove itself to be an improvement, reliable and accessible. If b ronze had merely showed up as something that has some benefits and some drawbacks and on the whole presenting no advantages, the stone age wouldn’t have ended there—B ronze and S tone Ages would have co-existed, perhaps with regional patterns, until the I ron A ge. Which is roughly where I think we are with electric cars.

And that’s roughly where I think we’ll continue to be, as long as electric cars are dependent on batteries. While current electrics have some advantages over ICE, they also have enough drawbacks that I’m not interested. IMO the Iron Age will come in the form of hydrogen fuel cells. Once they become a viable main-stream tech, it will represent a breakthrough that will be irresistible .

haveacarortwoorthree2 > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/01/2020 at 10:00

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Wichita’s virtual celebration of Drive Electric Week 

Virtual celebration? Drive Electric Week?

“Y ou can leave your asthma, your peanut allergy , and all that other made up bullshit outside.” 

SiennaMan > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/01/2020 at 10:02

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Good read. Reading how the engineering prof deals with range issues when he needs to leave Witchita makes me think the US needs electric cars with a little Atkinson cycle 1/2 L gas engine as a range extender.. the car could fire it up on command or if you got below a certain percentage of charge, but it would help the problem that a lot of people are going to need to drive long distances with some degree regularity and while it works for hi m, I guarantee my wife, for the sake of example, is not going to be willing to share an ice car, even with thr neighbors we like. Case in point, her round trip daily average commute is less than 20 miles. She could get by with an old imeiv. The problem is she probably wouldn’t even get in an imeiv, let alone consent to owning one. Our best hope to get someone like my wife to go electric would be to make a battery electric CRV with either 3 00 mile range or my little extender engine that can be fired up for road trips. Oh, the other kicker is it needs to cost probably $35,000US or less as well.

I use her as an example because I think her tastes and views are more in line with a large sw a th of Americans who can afford to buy new cars..

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/01/2020 at 10:15

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Yep, and also clearly worth the increased cost/effort to pretty much an yone. Pretty funny to think of the last hold-out with a stone axe in a village where everyone else had upgraded to bronze (like me and my manual transmission, perhaps?).

Would be incredible if they can actually make hydrogen “happen” as a transportation fuel. Honda’s still working hard at it.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/01/2020 at 10:18

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Should note I meant to say no NET advantage. Missed my edit window.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > SiennaMan 09/01/2020 at 10:20

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Yeah, there are some not-insignificant hurdles that must be crossed to get your average, everywoman, SiennaWoman to buy in.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > haveacarortwoorthree2 09/01/2020 at 10:22

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LOL

hillrat > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/01/2020 at 10:22

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10-15 years ago there was a gas station on Benning Rd (near RFK) that sold hydrogen here in DC and I used to see hydrogen-powered test cars in my old Capitol Hill neighborhood pretty regularly. Whoever or whatever made that happen dried up and they took out the hydrogen pump a few years ago.

CobraJoe > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/01/2020 at 10:37

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That’s a great sentiment about the stone age.

Perhaps not the greatest analogy for transitioning from gas to electric vehicles, but a great sentiment.

“The mindset most people have is ‘I’ve got a car. I can go anywhere. I can drive around town. I could go to California tomorrow if I wanted. I just have to pay for the gas,’ and you just have to adjust to that,” Wentz said.

That is going to be a difficult t hought to train people out of.

One: Right now, cars are one of the best ways to cheaply travel over long distances, and the only option if you’re going somewhere outside of a city or if you need to haul a lot of cargo .

Two: Renting a vehicle for taking longer trips is not a great solution. It’s additional expense on top of your normal car payments, and you are limited to the vehicles available. It could be horrible trying to get a vehicle if you have a family emergency near a major holiday.

Turing a car into a “subscription service” where you can swap cars for changing needs would fix one of those issues, but availability would still be limited.

Three: The freedom of movement we currently have is a way of life that would be difficult to change.

That being said, I’m sure a solution will present itself sooner or later. We’re not a species that accepts living with compromise when we can work to change it.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > CobraJoe 09/01/2020 at 10:45

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Yup, freedom of movement is HUGE in America. Our country is basically built on the idea , and our cities grew with it in mind. You just can’t undo hundreds of years of living a certain way.

Making the change in places that first developed before the car is s o much easier, because the cities are set up to work without them (walk- able, bike-able) , and public transportation makes sense.

Textured Soy Protein > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/01/2020 at 10:49

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Well, for one, an old Leaf is not exactly at the forefront of battery capacity or fast charging right now.

Ra nge anxiety goes away when an EV’s range is large enough that most trips are doable on a single charge, and topping it up for more range becomes as simple as filling up a gas-powered car.

EV batteries are growing in capacity and charging methods are getting faster. The big thing is to keep the fast charging methods standard across multiple brands of cars and chargers, then build out the infrastructure needed to support them. Of course, getting to the point where standardized fast EV chargers are ubiquitous anywhere you might park your car is a long way off, not because it’s not technically feasible, but because it would requires massive government spending that some people will be loath to approve.

But, let’s say somehow that infrastructure spending did happen, and a typical EV has like 400+ miles range and you can fast charge it wherever, the experience of taking a road trip would be much the same as with a gas car. 

On true long-distance road trips you’d still have to stop for longer recharge stops than a typical gasoline fuel stop, but as long as the car’s range is big enough where those recharge stops aren’t frequent, chilling at a charger for like 15-30 minutes one time during a long trip isn’t too big a deal. 

CobraJoe > SiennaMan 09/01/2020 at 10:51

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makes me think the US needs electric cars with a little Atkinson cycle 1/2 L gas engine as a range extender

I’m pretty sure that a “Range extended EV” is going to be the main solution in the next 5-10 years.

Batteries are expensive, and small gasoline engines can be fairly cheap. Give a car a 60-100 mile range on the battery , and then let the gas engine fire up and help out on longer drives. Plus, if you make it 100% ethanol capable, you’d have fewer emissions with a fully renewable fuel.

Even if the ICE i s not enough to recharge the battery while driving, it could add multiples to the range while significantly reducing recharge/refill times.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Textured Soy Protein 09/01/2020 at 10:59

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Clearly - just saying if a ton of people had bought a Leaf or similar a decade ago, they probably wouldn’t give another EV a shot for a while after that.

300-400 miles of range, for $35k, that can get an 80% charge in 10 minutes will be a game-changer.

CobraJoe > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/01/2020 at 10:59

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I agree that there are changes that can be made, and increasing ability to use small electric vehicles like scooters or e- bikes would be a huge benefit.

I live in the suburbs that were designed around the car, and I could have taken an e-bike to the store last night instead of my truck if the roads I had to cross weren’t major high speed streets.  

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > CobraJoe 09/01/2020 at 11:01

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I live in the country, 10 minutes from the nearly gas station, so... yeah.

SiennaMan > CobraJoe 09/01/2020 at 11:08

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Exactly. It’s something that would work right now and could give people a taste of what electrics are likely while mitigating range anxiety and holding costs down. The other good thing about this solution is right now some percentage of my electricity in Ohio is produced by coal, adding more coal power plants to charge electric cars might  be worse than a myriad of tiny gas engines running at peak efficiency some minority of the time the car is in use..

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > hillrat 09/01/2020 at 11:10

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Hopefully it gets its chance again.

CNG had its “moment” the last time gasoline got really high. Plenty of municipalities switched to it (places with central fueling), but you wonder how many who bought or converted a personal vehicle to CNG now regret it in hindsight.

nermal > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/01/2020 at 11:14

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True w idespread adoption of EVs will come when all of the mainstream objections to ownership and operation are addressed.

The biggest 3 are cost, range, and “refueling”. About the same cost as a comparable gas car, 300 mile range, and 15 minute “refueling” is all that is needed.

Teslas are close, if you can afford one and your lifestyle fits within the current limitations. If you never travel more than 100 miles from home, you’re in great shape. If you do travel farther and are ok with the requirements of pre-planning your stops and waiting an hour or so to recharge at each one, then they will also work.

Give it another 5-10 years. 

CobraJoe > SiennaMan 09/01/2020 at 11:21

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Plus it would allow more time for infrastructure and manufacturing to transfer over from gas powered to electric. I know that the rural areas are at least 20 years behind in most fads, and possibly even fur ther behind when it comes to electric vehicles .  (There is a lot of space out there, and a lot of charging points would need to be added for comparatively few people).  

I’m curious what a comparison of coal power plants   vs efficient small generators would be.

At least rural Nebraska and Iowa i s getting in on the wind power idea fairly early.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > nermal 09/01/2020 at 11:23

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I’d add infrastructure, but yes. That 15 minutes has to be the whole time (so no waiting in line prior to getting a plug, except in very rare circumstances).

Something to consider: just because we want something to get better/faster, doesn’t mean it necessarily will. Is is possible that we’re approaching a hard limit with current battery technology, as it pertains to cost, storage & charging? This is the same tech that computer and cell phone companies have been working on for a long, long time. Technological advances are always moving the line, but at some point, the physical limit of the materials may be reached.

For Sweden > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/01/2020 at 11:31

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Lithium is just a kind of stone though

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > For Sweden 09/01/2020 at 11:34

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OppoCOTD

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > SiennaMan 09/01/2020 at 11:47

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But how much range does a small range extender actually add? I don’t think it gets you to 300 miles from 60-100 miles of pure EV range, given that you need to also carry around a gas tank (EVs are already pretty tightly packed) in addition to that engine, and a tiny engine will only provide so much power.

I don’t think something like a CRV with close to 300 miles of range is that far off for under $35k real world. I’d be looking at the upcoming Bolt EUV. I’m currently in a Bolt lease - 269 miles of range, and out the door came to around $25k lease cost, which for a 3 year lease came to $230/month after zero down. With incentives will they be able to get the bigger Bolt EUV on your driveway for $10k more than that? Absolutely I would say.

The main concern I think is volume - they’re both not selling enough, and hard to find at the same time. Companies like GM are still hedging their bets so they only make so much (i.e. very little) volume that they know will sell to the demographics that will take these vehicles. So you need to keep your eye out for availability in your area AND the right incentives lining up to strike on it.

My fully loaded Bolt is MSRPed at over $41k which is an eye watering price for the damn thing. B ut after GM and federal, state incentives, the numbers look much more reasonable. Of course a lot of those incentives are running out so will GM keep providing incentives to make up for it? They might have to until there is true mass market demand for these vehicles. 

fintail > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/01/2020 at 12:44

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So other than no place to charge it, long charging times making road trips a pain in the ass, often flaky range that makes one drive slower than they usually would and use heat/AC etc sparingly, needing a silly tax break to sell to the masses, often dorky or dumpy styling, the EV train is ready to be boarded!

I wonder what some of the pumpers have in their investment portfolio. “Clean conscience” lol. The “borrow” a vehicle for longer trips is also amusing, some people live in their own world. Not a great sales pitch in my eyes.  Get back to me in maybe 10-20 years when tech catches up.

Now as a runabout for relatively local use for people fortunate enough to have at-home charging (SFHs are extremely difficult for single and many dual income people in my area), they are great, no conscience issues required.

SiennaMan > CobraJoe 09/01/2020 at 12:51

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I think one of the big infrastructure issues is making the rural grid more robust in several areas so it can handle the extra load and doesn’t conk out as much. (folks in the country less than 20 miles from Dayton, OH tend to keep generators because they know they’ll need them).

Now, as you alluded to, there are a lot of rural areas with good wind potential. That grid strengthening  could be done to get that wind energy to market and to insure more reliable electricity outside of urban/suburban areas..

nermal > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/01/2020 at 12:59

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I think the ownership experience needs to be close enough to a current gas car, but better. Meaning you can charge at home, or get a 15 minute charge anywhere along your route.

How often do gas stations replace their pumps? The standard nozzle hasn’t changed in.... a long, long time. The pumps have changed over the years to add credit cards and video ads, but that’s it.

For the infrastructure, the buildout of EV charging will be dependent on getting electricity to the stations, as well as balancing demand. No point in building 20 chargers at every gas station if they’re not gonna get used any time soon. 

Future next gen S2000 owner > nermal 09/01/2020 at 13:06

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I think a split is the way most households will address it. Keep a gas truck for long trips if needed. A smaller CUV kinda thing for around town.

SiennaMan > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 09/01/2020 at 13:09

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Supply is definitely still an issue (I think I’d have to special order almost anything electric to get it in Ohio..).

I don’t know that you need to get to a true 300 miles. I say 300 for pure electric because it would need to have excess range so it could still go a few hours in one go on a winter day. (My understanding is range is much less at 0F vs 32F vs 70F).

On the extender version, if I had 100 miles of pure range plus a small extender with 5 gallons of gas, if I start the extender as soon a s I get moving to keep topping off the battery, could I get 3-4 hours of highway driving out of that before needing a gas station and supercharger? Could I at least get from Dayton, OH to Columbus, OH and back (140 miles round trip) without stopping to supercharge on a winters day? (stopping for more gas would likely be ok since it’d be 5 minutes)

I don't honestly know the answer to my question,  but I get the sense that we're letting perfect get in the way of good enough with regard to moving bev adoption forward..

nermal > Future next gen S2000 owner 09/01/2020 at 13:34

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There’s also perception vs reality. In theory, anybody with a gas car could leave their house tomorrow and drive anywhere in the US, without worrying about refueling. EVs aren’t there yet.

The number of people that actually take such trips is minimal . But the worry about not being able to is problematic for EVs and will impact purchasing decisions .

Future next gen S2000 owner > nermal 09/01/2020 at 13:42

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It’s the 98/2 percent concept I am trademarking . People don’t purchase something for the 98 percent of the time they use it, they purchase for the 2 percent.

DipodomysDeserti > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/01/2020 at 14:27

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“ For me, personally, really the carbon emission was the most important factor, and being able to live with a clean conscience about climate change and leaving a healthy planet for my children.”

As someone who considers themselves environmentally minded, and likes to spend as much time as possible in natural environments, I find this mindset very problematic, especially coming from someone who is supposedly pretty well educated on environmental issues . Carbon emissions are just one piece of the puzzle, and replacing ICE cars with electric ones is not a solution. If you feel personal guilt because of what’s happening to the Earth’s biomes, simply driving an electric car shouldn’t  assuage that guilt.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > DipodomysDeserti 09/01/2020 at 14:37

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Clean er conscience, perhaps.

But you’re not going to get real change by hoping on your citizenry’s collective conscience. Has to be a combination of making sense financially/practically, and government action to move people & companies in the right direction (and I say that as someone who really dislikes big government).

(the star’s for Mr. Wentz, not you)

BigBlock440 > nermal 09/01/2020 at 15:01

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15 minutes is still an eternity standing around waiting on the gas pump.  Anything over 5 feels like forever as you watch the numbers slowly tick up.  A gas pump flows 10 gallons per minute, for reference. 

DipodomysDeserti > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/01/2020 at 15:32

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Has to be a combination of making sense financially/practically

You’re not wrong, but this is why I don’t think we’ll see any meaningful change until we are out of “stones”, if you will.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > DipodomysDeserti 09/01/2020 at 15:42

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The best chance for EVs is when gasoline prices go crazy, but it’s hard to see that any time soon. Maybe once the ‘rona’s gone, the economy starts cranking again, and Putin or Xi decide they want war...

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > SiennaMan 09/01/2020 at 16:20

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I don’t believe a range extender would add THAT much more range. I’m too lazy to look up stats on the i3 REX but pretty sure it doesn’t do that.

There’s some interesting perspectives on going full BEV vs PHEV along the lines of what you’re saying. Fewer expensive battery material costs spread over more cars, to give you most of what you would want on a daily basis, and that ICE (of course weight, gas, and all that) for the rest. I think it’s a pretty good solution for the short to medium term.

The RAV4 Prime for example would be an amazing DD, I’d love to get one for the wife as her next car (now to convince her that Subaru isn’t the only car company out there) - but supply is so low that they’re spoken for before they even hit dealer lots and are going above sticker. Outside of Tesla nobody else seems to have the scale figured out yet unfortunately. 

nermal > BigBlock440 09/01/2020 at 18:32

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In theory you would charge your EV at home or at work unless travelling for longer distances . Gas stations would evolve into convenience stores first, gas / charging stations second. See Sheetz / Wawa / Bucc ees / etc.

Show up, plug in your car, go get food and stuff. A 15 minute charge time isn’t unbearable in that context .