An FP article about police and politics that glosses over reality [politics]

"Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available" (whoistheleader2) 07/08/2020 at 16:57 • Filed to: Politics

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Sorry to intrude on your peaceful Wednesday evening, but this needs to be said.

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Police are essential to the functionality and integrity of any nation. Ours have an awful attitude right now. But, we still need them.

Police need cars. Ford makes police cars. I don’t see any reason at all why Ford should sacrifice American jobs, many of whom are filled by black and Latino workers, to stop manufacturing an essential tool of an essential service.

I found this article’s politicization of the subject to be nearly intolerable. I understand where both sides are coming from, but I don’t agree that Ford should stop making police cars, especially since the role would probably fall to a car not produced domestically. I know “Made in the USA” isn’t everything but it is something.

icemilkcoffee had a good take.

I mean it’s clear to anyone with an ounce of gray matter that the police is essential to any society, and police will need cars to do their jobs. There should be no controversy at this.

Now, what cars should the police be driving? That is the question. I submit that we get the police out of Explorers and F150's. Let’s get them into C-Max’es and Ford Transits. They should project an image of responsibility and sensibility, and not intimidation or occupation-army. We need cops. We just don’t need that ‘attitude’ that many of them have right now.

I missed when “Black” became capitalized. The author actually uses “black” too, so what’s the difference?

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 07/08/2020 at 17:06

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I think we should stop allowing police departments to order all black police cars. Paint those stupid things fluorescent yellow.

For Sweden > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 07/08/2020 at 17:07

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Jalopnik is a Mopar Police Car Blog

Just Jeepin' > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 07/08/2020 at 17:07

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Far more interesting FP article:

https://jalopnik.com/this-blowjob-machine-designed-for-teslas-on-autopilot-i-1844296987

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) 07/08/2020 at 17:08

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Bring back the blue and white livery, get rid of unmarked units for traffic stops, and give them Chevy Sonics. Good? Good.

Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) 07/08/2020 at 17:10

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#bringbackthe jamsandwich

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Just Jeepin' 07/08/2020 at 17:16

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I have no words. . . 

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > For Sweden 07/08/2020 at 17:17

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Somet hing something Dodge this

KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 07/08/2020 at 17:19

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This is not OK

This is OK,

Driving Ford explorers is not dangerous militarization of police. Cops need to do their jobs right? If not the big 3, who’s going to provide them with Vehicles? This is not what “Defund the police” means

TheRealBicycleBuck > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) 07/08/2020 at 17:30

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I couldn’t agree more. The only reason to use an unmarked or ghost-marked police car for traffic enforcement is to generate revenue.

Levitas > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 07/08/2020 at 17:36

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Counterpoint, because I wrote an incredibly similar email to the CEO as well:

It’s not that Ford should stop making police cars, period. Ford recognizes the importance of police, and the Network that sent this email will recognize that as well. It’s that they are the biggest maker in the business, and they derive a significant amount of profit from those sales. What FAAN is calling out is that Ford told the employees that they were going to “lead from the front” and avoid “superficial actions”, and that the absolute best way to lead from the front and avoid superficial actions was to suspend production until real change occurs. Not to mention, if you take a short stroll over to Ford’s culture page, the top truths are “Put people first” and “Do the right thing”. Ford is one of the companies that has serious clout to force the change, and avoiding conflict to continue to profit at the expense of your employees, your customers, your neighbors, is appalling.

The point of this article, the email I sent, and the email FAAN sent, is that companies can no longer pretend to exist in an apolitical environment where they both get to pretend to support change, while profiting millions a year to the contrary.

And quite honestly, after the Citizens United ruling, everything Ford (and all companies) does is political . They have a PAC, they donate significant money to (majority) Republican office holders. Employees (probably, my conjecture) wouldn’t be nearly as upset if Ford didn’t start from a strong stance, and then immediately do nothing.

One or the other message from Ford was blatantly a lie, and everything they’ve done so far has been exactly the superficial actions they said they would not do.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 07/08/2020 at 17:41

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I think we can all agree this is getting totally out of control... every wacky “make a statement with a self-defeating protest” idea is coming out of the woodwork...

KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time > Just Jeepin' 07/08/2020 at 17:43

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I laughed so much reading through that

MrDakka > KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time 07/08/2020 at 17:59

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Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m sure most if not all MRAPs are military surplus that departments picked up for pennies on the dollar from the feds because it was the cheaper option than uparmoring some SUVs for the SWAT adrenaline monkeys.

Honestly police having MRAPs for their SWAT teams is no big concern to me. When regular patrol cops are driving them, that’s when I’m worried.

citrus > KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time 07/08/2020 at 18:00

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Actually that’s MA,

This is OK

slipperysallylikespenguins > MrDakka 07/08/2020 at 18:05

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Yep, most police departments got their armored units from Federal surplus for almost nothing. The only other option was to scrap them or sell them to foreign nations.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Levitas 07/08/2020 at 18:07

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I do agree that they need to take serious actions against their office and plant culture. I admire the statement not to make superficial actions since it makes everything harder for them. I  do think they didn’t see something like this coming and probably regret the statement now. They aren't following through well.

They could make serious change, but I think their energies are better spent on addressing their structural and institutional racial biases rather than halting police car production. A temporary halt of sales could be a leveraging tool since there aren’t any alternative vehicles readily available. Not sure about this one but the article never mentioned “temporary.” The entire thing is too political for my opinion to be to be considered important given my lack of experience.

DipodomysDeserti > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 07/08/2020 at 18:26

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Never sat in a Ford cruiser, but GM needs to design a seatbelt that can be worn while handcuffed so if the officer wrecks you don’t break your arms.

MarquetteLa > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 07/08/2020 at 18:30

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I missed when “Black” became capitalized.

Last month: https://apnews.com/71386b46dbff8190e71493a763e8f45a

The author actually uses “black” too, so what’s the difference?

https://blog.ap.org/announcements/the-decision-to-capitalize-black

ranwhenparked > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 07/08/2020 at 18:42

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Technically, we don’t actually “need” police. One alternative that has been put forward is hiring people from the community, putting them through a training course, and making them responsible for enforcing laws/detaining criminals.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > ranwhenparked 07/08/2020 at 18:53

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Hopefully /S because what you are describing is the police.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > MarquetteLa 07/08/2020 at 18:57

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I have no issue with that in theory, but capitalizing White seems problematic and I’m not sure you can only do one. I’ll be keeping an eye on the spread of that because I'm curious how far it will go.  Thank you.

MrSnrub > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 07/08/2020 at 18:59

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It is interesting to note that when crowds of civilians are run over deliberately by a random ISIS nut job , we call it terrorism, but when the police do it, we don’t. Similarly, I think if it was discovered that Toyota knowingly sold Hiluxes to ISIS that were then used to run over people as a terrorist tactic ,  Toyota  would suffer some blowback, and justifiably so. I don’t really see why the situation with Ford should be any different, but hey, that’s the society we live in.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > MrSnrub 07/08/2020 at 19:04

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I would say it is more akin to making mailmen walk when someone goes postal. A fine line, but I don't see how you can just stop the police from buying police cars. The problem isn't the cars, but the people. I suppose you could say the same of any militant group but police cars aren't SWAT vehicles.

A Boy and His Longtail > Just Jeepin' 07/08/2020 at 19:07

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The front page used to mean something. Now it’s all so clickbaity. Are they trying to drive traffic away?

A Boy and His Longtail > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) 07/08/2020 at 19:08

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The correct take

A Boy and His Longtail > DipodomysDeserti 07/08/2020 at 19:09

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That sounds like there is a backstory

ranwhenparked > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 07/08/2020 at 19:12

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No, because they won’t be called that - community safety officers or something. And they’ll also be nonunion this time .

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > ranwhenparked 07/08/2020 at 19:16

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We’ve already got those where I live. I don’t know what they do but they can’t pull you over and don’t carry guns but are otherwise exactly like police officers. Except they are treated like mall cops and don't do anything.

MrSnrub > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 07/08/2020 at 19:16

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I would say it is more akin to making mailmen walk when someone goes postal.

If the postal service killed a thousand people every year and had a multi-week national riot when people complained about it, that might be true. A few bad apples are not the problem with the police, the problem is the entire system of policing. It selects for people who go postal.

It’s true that if Ford didn’t sell cars to the police, someone else would, but if there was a stigma attached to it, police might ultimately be faced with some pretty crappy choices. Maybe that would incentivize them to change their behavior. It’s not a solution by any means, and shouldn’t be the primary focus of any activism, but if it incentivizes bad people to be less bad, well, that’s something.

ranwhenparked > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 07/08/2020 at 19:21

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They’ll have to have guns, of course, and detention powers. But, they’ll be at-will employees, so they’ll be easier to fire, and won’t be paid as much. Another alternative is to eliminate local departments and have the state police handle everything, or form a national police force under federal control. 

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > MrSnrub 07/08/2020 at 19:22

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I don’ t disagree with the goal but the method seems a peculiarly ineffective one. I can see maybe a 6 month or year long moratorium on production but permanent discontinuation on production I just don’t see the need for. I see a need, but I don’t see how it solves it . Maybe suspending the purchase of armored cars and other high tech military grade stuff would be a more effective message.

My point is there are better ways to restructure and reform the police. I don't discourage it but I don't encourage it either.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > ranwhenparked 07/08/2020 at 19:27

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National police would never happen and I don’t trust them to do it right. State police exist but localizing the enforcement is a good way to prevent this kind of stuff from happening. Just with greater transparency and without the  us against them mentality that can be diluted with overarching supervision. I don’t know much on the topic really so you can pretty much disregard my opinion.

DipodomysDeserti > MrDakka 07/08/2020 at 19:30

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Yeah, I’m sure they use them responsibly. Police and SDs are generally known for good decision making. They definitely would haul an obese, multicam clad celebrity around in an MRAP to bust a suspected cockfighting coups, killing a dog in the process, all to get footage for a TV show.

Ahhh shit, these people might be morons.

DipodomysDeserti > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 07/08/2020 at 19:36

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We have lots of different national “police”. The FBI, Secret Service, Postal Police, BLM rangers, Forest Service rangers, BATFE officers...

DipodomysDeserti > A Boy and His Longtail 07/08/2020 at 19:40

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On the other hand, they might keep your hands behind your back and not buckle you at all. You get a good core workout trying to keep from sliding everywhere.

ranwhenparked > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 07/08/2020 at 19:52

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And, honestly, the state police don’t want to do it. They exist to cover rural areas and small towns that lack the tax base to afford their own local coverage (and also have a small enough population/density that they don’t need a lot of coverage). When cities are big enough to afford to cover themselves, and have the population density and crime levels to require more intensive, frequent coverage, states pretty much demand that they start handling it themselves and just call for backup/ assistance if there’s some big emergency they can’t take care of on their own.

The problem is complicated.

A lot of it comes down to people just don’t like being told what to do and what not to do, and don’t like being arrested when they’re breaking the law.

Some of it is related to unionization of government workers making it too hard for elected officials, who are actually accountable to their constituents, to get rid of dead weight.

Some of it is related the fact that people with certain personality disorders or immaturity levels being drawn to positions that give them a sense of authority and respect (police, fire, military, EMS, private security, etc), and personality tests and psychological screening aren’t 100% effective in catching all of them (they aren’t always found out until after they’ve screwed up in a big way, in which case, even if they do get fired immediately and charged with a crime themselves, the damage has already been done).

Some if it is related to the deinstitutionalization of the mentally ill, and our generally poor support systems for the mentally ill, in general. Part of it is budget cuts, part of it is legal protections that treat people that are clearly not in their right mind, clearly not able to care for themselves, clearly not able to function in society, as though they are perfectly sane and able to make their own decisions and follow their own treatment plan. Part of it is an outsized level of trust placed in prescription pharmaceuticals and outpatient counseling to solve really serious, permanent issues. The issue of dealing with the mentally ill gets outsourced from doctors who have been through medical school and spent years specializing in the subject and work in facilities specialized to deal with it, to police officers, who are trained to arrest criminals and investigate crimes and signed up to do basically just that.

You also have people who call the police for nonviolent domestic arguments, expected them to do the work of relationship counselors, or people who call the police just because they don’t like something their neighbor is doing, regardless of whether its an actual crime.

Plus, you have the whole situation with a lot of our laws, regulations, and ordinances probably being outdated, unnecessary, and fundamentally unpopular, but which still get enforced, because they are still on the books, and the police have to enforce them. Politicians are the ones who have the power to repeal, amend, or replace superfluous or outdated laws, but often refuse to act on that, and then get to act surprised or outraged when a constituent gets arrested for violating one of them. Laws are what makes a behavior criminal, the fewer laws you have, the fewer criminals you have, the fewer criminals you have, the less negative interactions you have between police and the public. Maybe start cleaning up some of that - go through everything with a fine tooth comb and force rank everything.

Hell, Eric Garner might still be alive right now, if selling loose cigarettes wasn’t defined as an arrest able criminal offense in New York City. He died of a heart attack while being detained and handcuffed. Why not just issue a ticket? Or confiscate the merchandise? Or make it not an offense at all, if the cigarettes were already taxed and  legally purchased and the reseller isn’t selling them to anyone under age? 

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > ranwhenparked 07/08/2020 at 20:20

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You presented an excellent balances view of the subject. The blame isn't with any one person but with everyone. Dead weight in the police department responding to dead weight in society introducing dead weight into politics and so forth. Things aren't getting simpler but more complicated.

A Boy and His Longtail > DipodomysDeserti 07/08/2020 at 20:22

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Hey guys, DipodomysDeserti here. For today’s core workout we’re going to ride in the backseat of a cop car, handcuffed, with no seatbelt 

DipodomysDeserti > A Boy and His Longtail 07/08/2020 at 21:06

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Now that we’re at county and through processing, we’ll do dips on this concrete bench for nine hours while we wait for arraignment. We’re gonna have to skip pushups today, because the meth head in our cell has been masturbating into the floor all day.

Oh boy, did I have a fun Sunday.

DipodomysDeserti > TheRealBicycleBuck 07/08/2020 at 21:08

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That’s pretty much the purpose of our entire “justice” system.

nermal > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 07/08/2020 at 22:34

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Regarding the topic of the article, it will end up being a business decision. If Ford either actually loses money or thinks they will lose money as a result of making police vehicles, then they will stop making police vehicles. If they think they will make money , then they will continue.

Regarding the overall tone of the article, it matches the others recently , where Jellopnikk is turning into The Root: Cars. This is also a business decision, where it will certainly both lose some readers (and advertisers) and gain some others.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > nermal 07/08/2020 at 22:42

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I can generally agree with you, but a business does have to balance public opinion too as well as has the opportunity to make very political decisions at the whim of the board and the CEO. In the case of Jalopnik, they are unfortunately becoming The Root: Cars, which is a sad state of affairs. WHERE AM I GOING TO GET MY TAILLIGHT CO NT ENT?

Exage03040 @ opposite-lock.com > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 07/08/2020 at 22:55

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You know, I have a partial interest in where Jalop is going to be in 6mo-1y. This is a very interesting experiment in attempting to be the woke car site. I think it’ll ruin them.

3 articles I’ve seen the past 2 days where the readership is calling them out. I think the big ban-hammer on Raphs article sealed it today. FP has progressed further than an   epistemic bubble; it’s now a bonafide   echo chamber.

“Damn, what a shame. ” - Gordon Ramsey

nermal > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 07/08/2020 at 23:02

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How many people will buy a Ram or a GM truck instead of an F-150 if Ford stops making police vehicles? How many people will buy a new Escape because Ford stops making police vehicles? Which scenario is more profitable? Alternatively, h ow can Ford float the issue for a week or two until people just forget about it and move on to being offended by something else?

The Drive has lots of taillights and other quirks and features.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Exage03040 @ opposite-lock.com 07/08/2020 at 23:09

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Too bad because they were more fun before they were woke. 

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > nermal 07/08/2020 at 23:10

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Shame that the best comments section on the internet turned into an average comments section on the internet. FP used to be so good.

MrDakka > DipodomysDeserti 07/08/2020 at 23:42

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Looks like an 80's era turretless Cadillac   Gage Commando armored car, which ironically enough is used by most militaries around the world for policing and guard duties, because they’re kinda trash in actual mo dern armed conflicts.

In the end, they’re just armored transports. It’s not like their choice in vehic ular transport will affect their intent.

Exage03040 @ opposite-lock.com > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 07/08/2020 at 23:43

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Before 2019 I had never used the dismiss button. W e all had a good time, were tolerant , shared our thoughts on cars.

I had some of my writing posted in FP articles by Kristen, Justin and Tavarish.

Remember when Doug had that Range Rover he bled CarMax with the warranty ? Pepperidge Farm Remembers

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Exage03040 @ opposite-lock.com 07/09/2020 at 00:34

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It went noticably downhill even from my fairly new (early 2019) regular readership. OPPO is still a safe haven for the most part and we need to keep it that way.

DipodomysDeserti > MrDakka 07/09/2020 at 01:54

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I think everyone knows the purpose of using military looking hardware. It’s not because it’s actually more martially effective.

Just like jail guards wearing FDE SAPI plates   with empty holsters attached to their plate carriers. Things make it much harder to fight in a cell, but they’ll intimidate some of the inmates.

Guess the dog they shot wasn’t scared of Segal or the Caddy.

kanadanmajava1 > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 07/09/2020 at 05:50

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I would assume that the police in the US could operate with a substantially lower number of cars. The larger police units have ridiculously large amount of cars in their use. T hey could just try to keep the existing ones running and using the broken ones as spares.

Put two officer in each car and you would have plenty of excess cars. For some reason the police in the US seem to be patrolling alone quite often. In Finland they nev er do this. T here’s always a pair of policemen in a single car.

So I don’t think that manufacturers could really force police to do something by not selling the m new cars. And t hey could still purchase new cars from a third party and have them suitably modified. They wouldn’t be the manufacturer offe red police specials but they would still work fine.

ABC News and Bored:

Derpwagon > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 07/09/2020 at 12:49

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I’ve watched members of Oppo completely hate-brigade people who disagreed with the echo chamber. 

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Derpwagon 07/09/2020 at 13:34

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So have I. We should really stick to cars. I don't come here for politics. At the very least, there is more respectful dissertation here than most places.

Derpwagon > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 07/09/2020 at 14:50

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Personally I think that the politics stuff should stay on cigar lounge, and while cigar lounge should be well- advertised and promoted as the place to have those conversations, I think both political stuff on Oppo and the cross-posting of cigar lounge stuff so it shows up on O ppo has had a detrimental effect on the ‘community’.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Derpwagon 07/09/2020 at 14:56

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I think you are right. I really try to stay away from the political stuff but I found this article to be relevant as it shows just how far the FP has fallen. Surprisingly they actually felt like their older self today but maybe it is just a good day. This is probably the only time I’ll ever post politics here.

Have a car for your well worded and respectful comment.

If you aren’t prepared to have your opinion challenged, don’t say it. There are so many opinions here about everything that somebody is always going to disagree. That’s fine, but don’t get upset about it.

Derpwagon > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 07/09/2020 at 15:35

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I a gree with your opinion of the FP. I hardly read anything there anymore. Also agree that people need to learn to engage with dissenting opinions.

Also thank you for that car! It is a good car. 

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > Derpwagon 07/09/2020 at 15:46

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I've had a lot of practice of not getting offended by having some very uncommon opinions. I've read a whole lot I don't agree here but knowing what you don't believe helps you understand what you do believe better. I've not yet taken something here personally.

MrDakka > DipodomysDeserti 07/09/2020 at 18:16

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Tacticool operator does as tacticool operator d oes best: being a try hard poser.

Are SAPI plates actually a thing with prison guards? I would think they of all people would want to be wearing riot/knife resistant gear on their shifts rather than ballistic protection.

DipodomysDeserti > MrDakka 07/09/2020 at 18:58

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I got to spend some time watching guards last weekend. There  were two guys I saw wearing plate carriers with what looked like hard armor in them. Had empty kydex holsters attached to them as well. Maybe they fucked up as deputies and were given jail duties. Gotta keep rocking that sweet gear.