Gunlopnik - Unusual Edition

"jminer" (jminer) 07/08/2020 at 14:50 • Filed to: None

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Over the last few months I’ve been cleaning out my gun collection and getting rid of anything I don’t shoot much which has led to me cutting down my collection nearly in half. I still have too many guns though so there will be more purging coming.

Most of what I’ve sold is mildly interesting but nothing that unusual. Things like a Norinco SKS, couple shotguns, Ruger 243, Ruger 44 Mag and so on. One more on my list to get rid of is a bit more unusual and was actually my first gun purchase too.

It is a Daisy Model 2203 Semi-Automatic 22 LR gun. Yes, Daisy the air rifle company. They made a couple models of 22 guns in the late 80's but were not a big success so they stopped.

I bought it in a pawn shop when I was 18, I looked back at the shelf and saw something unusual there and asked for it. I was baffled by what I saw and it was only $60, so I bought it.

Part of the reason they weren’t a success is they’re genuinely strange guns and I’ve never encountered another quite like this one. I’ll go into some of the oddities below.

First oddity: Plastic barrel with steel lining

This has definitely been done before but it’s not something you see on everyday rifles. I do have another that does this, but it’s a Henry survival rifle which packs into it’s stock and weighs nearly nothing.

Second Oddity: Painted instead of blued receiver

I guess this was to make the gun look more seamless between the black plastic barrel and the steel receiver but it makes even the slightest mark on the gun look terrible and start to rust.

Third Oddity: Plastic Magazines

The magazines are literally molded plastic. This gives them a ton of flex and they feed terrible.

Fourth Oddity: The action

The bold action is genuinely strange. There isn’t a prawl or handle like you’re used to on a rifle to cycle the action or release it. It is a rod under the barrel that you push back towards the buttstock to open or cycle the action and a button back on the stock to close it.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

This all adds up to a genuinely strange gun, especially since it was only made 30 years ago even though the basics of a semi-automatic rifle has been understood for a very long time.

It also shoots terribly - it jams constantly and bullets literally come tumbling end over end out of the end of the barrel.

The end of this gun’s life is coming though, while doing some research on it before I was planning on selling it I came across a recall.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

So I contacted Daisy and they’re sending me a shipping label to send it back to them to destroy it since they’re not fixing them anymore. They’re even going to send me a $100 check for it.

Thanks for coming along with me in this exploration of a strange gun that I still own but haven’t shot in 17 years.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > jminer 07/08/2020 at 14:57

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Wow, how accurate is that thing? 

VincentMalamute-Kim > jminer 07/08/2020 at 14:58

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?? Triple post.  What’s going on?

VincentMalamute-Kim > jminer 07/08/2020 at 14:58

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What else are you going to be selling? Possibly could be interested.

How many guns does one have to have before it’s called a collection?

Speaking of interesting, I just learned of Daewoo K-1 rifles.

VincentMalamute-Kim > jminer 07/08/2020 at 14:58

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?? Double post.

jminer > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 07/08/2020 at 14:59

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Not at all - it was genuinely terrible to shoot.

jminer > VincentMalamute-Kim 07/08/2020 at 14:59

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Three now :)

jminer > VincentMalamute-Kim 07/08/2020 at 15:02

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What state do you live in?

I had nearly 30 before I started selling them - so I’m either a hoarder or collector.  Not sure which.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > jminer 07/08/2020 at 15:02

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I consider myself somewhat of an aficionado of bizarre firearms and I was not aware that Daisy made a firearm in the 80's, especially one that strange.

I thought they got away from that after the V/ Ls. The V/L fired a special “boosted” pellet that was similar to a normal pellet but had a small propellant charge attached to the back. A jet of air heated and ignited the propellant as it pushed the pellet down the barrel, giving it a boost. They only made them for 2 years (1968-69) before the ATF ruled they were, in fact, firearms and Daisy should either stop production or obtain and FFL to manufacture firearms.

I had no idea they dabbled in that market again, but that 2203 is quite something. While it seems like most of the gun is utter rubbish (crap mags, plastic barrel, paint instead of bluing), I do like the charging mechanism and could see some utility in that. Very cool find and thank you for sharing.

jminer > VincentMalamute-Kim 07/08/2020 at 15:03

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That’s interesting about the Daewoo, Korea is a strange place where manufacturing companies make everything.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > jminer 07/08/2020 at 15:03

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Yeah I got a feeling about that just looking at it! My dad grew up on a ranch so we always had tons of guns in Montana. They let me loose with an old Winchester lever action .22 when I was a kid in the summer visiting. That thing was accurate, I had a small scope, the ranch next door needed some pest control and he would give me a few boxes of rounds to help. 

jminer > Snuze: Needs another Swede 07/08/2020 at 15:07

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They made three models from like 88-91: this one, one just like it with a plastic stock and a bolt action. The bolt actions are by most accounts good guns and use a ruger style rotary magazine.

Thanks for reading!

Those early Daisy cartridgeless guns are serious collector items now, this one is unusual but not unusual enough to be worth anything. When these newer ones come up for sale they only for for $150-200.

The action isn’t unpleasant to use, and especially for children (I assume this guns target user) it would definitely be easier to use than a traditional one.  It just isn’t built really well and is unusual.

GoodIdeaAtTheTime > jminer 07/08/2020 at 15:08

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$100? I’d throw it on Gunbroker first , they normally bring $200- $300 for ok condition. I’ve seen a few mint ones go for $500-$700. Heck, the mags are worth $40-$60 . These things are fairly collectible now. I’d hold off on sending it in and see if a collector might be interested.

jminer > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 07/08/2020 at 15:09

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Always fun going pest hunting with a 22! I grew up in rural Missouri on a small farm so guns were definitely a part of it. I took to them and have hunted ever since and enjoy shooting. When I come across an unusual gun I usually but it too - this is part of the reason I don’t go to gun shops much anymore...

Lever actions are some of my favorite guns to shoot - I’ve got a Winchester 44 mag that I use as a brush gun for deer hunting and I love that thing!

jminer > GoodIdeaAtTheTime 07/08/2020 at 15:11

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There’s just no market for the gun, even if I sold it for $200 on gunbroker by the time I dealt with FFL fees, shipping and their cut I’d be back near $100. I thought about selling the mags but mine aren’t in great condition (none are) and there just isn’t much of a market for them.

That plus since the gun has been deemed by the manufacturer as unsafe to shoot it’s going to get melted down.

vondon302 > jminer 07/08/2020 at 15:12

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Well that's just weird.

jminer > vondon302 07/08/2020 at 15:13

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Yes it is

Snuze: Needs another Swede > jminer 07/08/2020 at 15:21

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I’d like to add a V/L to my collection at some point, but I’ve got other priorities at the moment . I thinned out at the end of last year, and by that I mean I sold 4 guns so I could buy one of my dream rifles, a minty Rock-ola M1 carbine. Now I’m looking to get rid of a few more, but nothing I need to purchase, I could just use the space. 

Snuze: Needs another Swede > VincentMalamute-Kim 07/08/2020 at 15:21

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What are you interested in? I’ve also been thinning out a bit and have some things I am looking to sell.

jminer > Snuze: Needs another Swede 07/08/2020 at 15:27

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Ooohhh a M1 carbine. Always been on my wish list but I am way too cheap to ever buy one.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > jminer 07/08/2020 at 15:31

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Carbines are great and if you ever find an inexpensive one, snatch it up. I also have a cool little Ermawerkes M1-22 trainer rifle from Germany.  I’m a big C&R guy and love all the historic stuff.  But I’ve kind of run out of cheap, weird, old guns to buy so my collecting has slowed down, but I’ve been focusing more on actual high end collectors pieces.  

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > jminer 07/08/2020 at 15:38

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...

Fifty Oddity: Profit!

Future next gen S2000 owner > jminer 07/08/2020 at 15:52

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... they’re sending me a shipping label to send it back to them to destroy it since they’re not fixing them anymore. They’re even going to send me a $100 check for it.

That seems like a very reasonable thing to do.

jminer > Future next gen S2000 owner 07/08/2020 at 15:54

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I think it’s definitely good of them, also means I don’t have to deal with selling it which can be a pain.

WiscoProud > jminer 07/08/2020 at 16:01

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What an odd gun. I’d almost say keep it for the collectibility factor, but I wouldn’t shoot it. 

jminer > WiscoProud 07/08/2020 at 16:06

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That’s why I’ve kept it all these years but I have too many guns and really want to thin out.  Since this one shoots awful, the manufacturer said it’s dangerous to own and isn’t worth much it gets the boot.

WiscoProud > jminer 07/08/2020 at 16:17

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Yeah, I can completely understand your decision. 

shop-teacher > jminer 07/08/2020 at 16:47

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Wow, that is weird!

Nice profit though :)

VincentMalamute-Kim > jminer 07/08/2020 at 17:22

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Don’t know what’s up with the grip/stock in this version. Forums seem to respect the Daewoo rifles.

I just got your meaning about manufacturing - the chaebols. Yeah, I visited and it was weird seeing a Hyundai logo on the windows, faucets, toilet, etc in the house.

jminer > shop-teacher 07/08/2020 at 17:25

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It is a strange gun for sure.  Guns I bought that long ago are usually worth more than $40 more than I paid for them, but I’m ok with this one.

VincentMalamute-Kim > Snuze: Needs another Swede 07/08/2020 at 17:26

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Nothing in particular.  Not bolt action rifles.  I have an AK, AR, 9mm compact and sub-compact so probably don’t need more in those categories.

VincentMalamute-Kim > jminer 07/08/2020 at 17:26

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CO.

Woah.  I guess I’m a poseur in comparision.

shop-teacher > jminer 07/08/2020 at 17:27

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Its a 66% profit margin, which ain't too shabby!

VincentMalamute-Kim > Snuze: Needs another Swede 07/08/2020 at 17:30

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ooh, an M1 would be cool.  As would a 60's vintage Colt AR.

jminer > VincentMalamute-Kim 07/08/2020 at 17:33

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I just used to buy a ton of guns, I’m in Missouri about 800 miles from Denver so not particularly practical to meet up I’m afraid.

VincentMalamute-Kim > jminer 07/08/2020 at 18:04

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You selling anything “interesting”? (whatever the definition is ). It’s possible I’d visit my folks in Indiana and swing down to MO. Timing is probably not anytime soon though.

jminer > VincentMalamute-Kim 07/08/2020 at 18:31

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Probably the most interesting would be a FEG PA-63 which is a communist Hungarian Walther PPK clone chambered in 9mm makarov which is 9x18 instead of the 9x19 9mm parabellum.

Not 100% sure I’d sell that one, but leaning towards it.

VincentMalamute-Kim > jminer 07/08/2020 at 19:09

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That is interesting. Doesn’t fit my image of a good looking gun though.

No CZ’s? I initially learned about guns from Gunsmith Cats. She loved the CZs.

jminer > VincentMalamute-Kim 07/08/2020 at 19:10

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No CZs, they have  have always been pretty expensive and I'm too cheap to spend $1k on a gun.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > VincentMalamute-Kim 07/08/2020 at 19:21

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The Carbine is awesome. I also have 2 Garands, a regular M1 and and M1D sniper rifle.

Ive got a few ARs but they are all more modern styles. Id love to do a vintage M-16 style rifle though . And maybe an XM177E2 for funsies.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > VincentMalamute-Kim 07/08/2020 at 19:30

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Right now Iv e got 3 shotguns Im looking to get rid of. A Mossberg Maverick 88 20" barrel with 7+1 tube, an Emperor MX-5 (the most Oppo of shotguns) semi auto 4+1, and a Cheetah semiauto Saiga clone. All are 12 gauge.

VincentMalamute-Kim > jminer 07/08/2020 at 23:27

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ah! Didn’t know their prices. yah, I’m looking for something interesting and cheap which are discordant goals.

VincentMalamute-Kim > Snuze: Needs another Swede 07/08/2020 at 23:34

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huh, the Cheetah looks cool. An AK/AR shotgun.  I know nothing about shotguns.  Do I want one?

VincentMalamute-Kim > Snuze: Needs another Swede 07/08/2020 at 23:37

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I really like that vintage M16 look. Googled XM177 and looked at the Colt page. Yike! $2500 for their Retro AR! 

jminer > VincentMalamute-Kim 07/08/2020 at 23:48

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There’s a lot of strange and interesting old military surplus stuff out there for relatively cheap . Ammo can be hard to find sometimes but they’re unique for sure.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > VincentMalamute-Kim 07/09/2020 at 07:58

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I build all mine. You can still get legit US GI dismantled parts kits for early style M-16s - everything minus the lower receiver and full auto disconnector - still floating around for about $500. The expensive part is an authentic Colt lower, which runs another $500.

Doing an XM177 is a bit trickier. They had something like a 10" barrel and 5" “moderator” which is basically a mini-suppressor, and thus subject to NFA regs. However you could do a 10.5" barrel and someone makes a 5.5" flash hider that looks like the moderator, and you could blind pin and weld it on to make a 16" legal barrel. The real trick with this, for maximum authenticity, is again the Colt lower, and finding a 2 position collapsible stock, a paddle forward assist, and some other little bits and bobs that were unique to the gun. You could probably still do it cheaper than the Colt Retro though.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > VincentMalamute-Kim 07/09/2020 at 08:23

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A few things - if you ever come to the DC area, hit me up and I’ll show you my collection. It is rather, um, extensive. As I said, mainly curio and relics, old military guns are my favorite, but especially ones with unique stories, interesting mechanical bits, etc.

I’ve heard good things about those Daewoos but have no experience with them. They remind me a lot of an AR style with the split receivers. The one you pictured has the thumbhole stock which probably makes it a “ban state” gun - a lot of gun laws seem to focus on ergonomic features, so a rifle like an AR where the grip is separate from the stock, is considered more badderer, or something like that. So the thumbhole stock gets around that.

Okay, now shotguns. Do you want one? Yes. Do you want the Cheetah as your primary shotgun? Depends. A shotgun can be the most versatile firearm because of its ability to use a range of loads - light shot for small game and clay shooting, heavier shot loads for larger game, and then very heavy loads like buckshot and slugs for defense, long range (relatively speaking) , etc. A pump shotgun, like the Maverick, is like the revolver of long guns, it’s dirt simple and mechanical reliability is superb, and it requires almost no cleaning or maintenance . The downside is they kick hard because there’s no mechanical system that soaks up any recoil.

Semi-auto guns flip that because they are easier to shoot, less recoil, but require a bit more attention to keep running in top condition. They can also be more finicky about ammo because some guns are tailored to certain usages. An extreme example is my old Browning Auto-5 - it was the first semi-automatic shotgun ever, but because of the range of loads, it has different springs and friction brakes and the user has to install the correct one s to work with their intended loads before going to shoot or the gun either won’t cycle or it will beat the snot out of the receiver. Modern semi-autos, like the Emperor are “self-compensating” and will cycle a wider range of loads. The Cheetah has an adjustable gas block with 4 positions, so you can tailor it.

The issue with the Cheetah in particular is that its a mag fed shotgun which has furth er advantages and disadvantages. Reloading a shotgun under duress sucks. I shoot 3-gun and shotgun stages are everyone’s bane because you have to focus so much on keeping the tube topped off. The problem is shotgun shells are low pressure, and rimmed. Low pressure means you have a finite amount of energy to cycle the action, extract the shell, etc. The rim becomes an issue if the top shell sits ahead of the lower one in the magazine because now you’re expending additional energy to pull the fresh round over the lower round’s rim . So gas tuning on a mag fed gun is key. You’d think for 3-gun everyone would run mag fed guns for speed reloads but in reality very few competitors, or at least folks in my region, do because of the reliability issues. Too little gas and you don’t cycle, too much and you start having issues with bolt bounce which leads to double feeds. So you walk a fine line.

So if you want a fun shotgun to blast with, the Cheetah is cool, and if you’re willing to put the time in to tune it right and find the right loads it could be a good 3-gun gun . But the 20" barrel, it’s looks, and lack of bead sights, will keep you out of a lot of clay ranges. My experience has been most of those places require “traditional” shotguns and usually have minimum barrel length requirements of 24-26". If you want a good all around shotgun, get a more traditional semi-auto. I shoot 3 gun with a Mossberg JM Pro Tactical 24" and it’s a sweet setup for that, but I can also take it clay shooting, so it’s become my backup clay gun behind my Auto-5. I have some parts for the MX-5 including a mag extension and follower and some other bits and bobs and I was going to attempt to make a low buck 3-gun shotgun out of it, but I was having trouble finding the right connector for tube, and then I got busy with other things and shelved the project.

VincentMalamute-Kim > Snuze: Needs another Swede 07/09/2020 at 20:59

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wow, thank you for all the info. You’ve exactly hit on my level of knowledge. I know what 3-gun is and gas blocks and such but didn’t know about the different recoil of the shotgun types. A friend shot skeet with a pump shotgun and liked it but found the 12g too much for his shoulder.

Sounds like a traditional semi-auto would be what I’d want. I’ve never done clay. It sounds like I’d want someone experienced to take me along. 3-gun also sounds interesting but I can barely hit pistol targets right now.

Thanks for the offer if I ever hit DC.  Unlikely as I usually don’t go further east than Indiana.  OTOH, if you’re ever out in CO, you should take me to shoot.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > VincentMalamute-Kim 07/09/2020 at 21:58

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You’re welcome. Guns and cars are my passions and probably the things I’m most knowledgable about, as opposed to say things like, I dunno, my job. Hah!

Shotguns can get a little crazy. The basic semi-auto actions are long recoil (only the Auto-5 and its clones use this and it’s considered obsolete), gas operation, inertia drive (mainly higher end Beretta and Benelli guns), and then you have the AR and AK style shotguns that use their respective operations (rotating bolt gas operation or long piston rotating bolt, respectively). Any semi auto action will dampen recoil. Honestly if you don’t have one I’d say get a cheap T urkish beater gun like the MX-5, or spend a bit more and get a decent Mossberg 930 or Remington 1100 or something similar. I’d shoot for a 26 inch barrel as it’s a good compromise - a bit on the long side for a defense gun, a bit short for a true hunting or clay gun - but it will do everything okay.

I also saw you mention you like CZs and I have an old CZ-75BD Police model, an ex-Israeli cop gun, that I am considering letting go if you have any interest. The 75 is a legend, one of the first “wonder 9s”. Mine is rough around the edges but still locks up tight and shoots straight. I got it back in 2015 and I have shot it in a few competitions where it certainly performed as good or better than the user. It came to me with a set of Pachmayr grips intended for a different model that had been hacked to fit it, but I replaced them with a set of Houge wrap arounds. I also have several mags for it (16 rounds, I think). Its a nice piece but I spend all my time now shooting either my Glock race gun or my Steyr L9A1 that I use for 3 gun.

I’d like to get to CO in the next couple years. My aunt and uncle have a place near Buena Vista. My uncle is a big time shooter, too. He’s got a great collection of classic cowboy guns - old Sharps, lever action Winchesters, etc. If I make it out there I’ll let you know.  

VincentMalamute-Kim > Snuze: Needs another Swede 07/10/2020 at 21:11

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Typical - the more one learns, the more there is too know. Shotguns are nuts. I never knew that they were that complex.

I don’t travel much. I did car camp near Gunnison (Rainbow Lake) on Nat Forest land. Stopped at Buena Vista. Well, if you ever come out here and take me clay shooting, I’ll get a Mossberg or similar then.

I googled all the guns you mentioned. Including the CZ75. I didn’t know that much about them other than Rally loved hers. (read right to left ).  She sounds like you.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > VincentMalamute-Kim 07/11/2020 at 11:18

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CZ is like a hidden gem in the gun world that has gotten popular lately, but all of us who already knew how good they were like “Told ya so! We were shooting them before they were cool! “ This has spawned lots of gun hipster memes.

T his is my CZ. Its a later model but it’s still a great shooter.

VincentMalamute-Kim > Snuze: Needs another Swede 07/11/2020 at 12:52

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I had no idea about CZ hipster memes. Gunsmith Cats weren’t trying to be hipster - Rally liked them in the 1980s.

Yours is cool - I like the patina.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > VincentMalamute-Kim 07/11/2020 at 16:22

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Rally sounds like an OG!  And thank you!