Don't let them fool you.

"Spanfeller is a twat" (theaspiringengineer) 06/03/2020 at 21:06 • Filed to: None

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Protests are not good. No one likes protesting, not really, people protest because they have a reason to be dissatisfied that has grown to a point that they see a benefit by going to a protest. Protests are nothing but indicators. When a sector of the population protests, they have something to say for any number of reasons; sometimes logical, others not so much. But what unifies protests is their value as indicators of how a society “feels” regardless of how well designed or well operated it is.

Protests are turned illegitimate when they’re ill conceived. Which is why, whenever an oppressor wishes to delegitimize the oppressed, they turn to provoking some form distraction. Be it highlighting the damage done by the protest (be it garbage, or some sort of tangentially related inconvenience) or, in more aggressive situations, by having protests hijacked by violent agitators. To those at home, looking at the protest through a TV, violence is always unacceptable, and negative externalities of freezing the regular order of things are also unacceptable. Influencing the comfortable is easy, because no one who is comfortable wishes to be in discomfort, and bite-sized opinions go great through our minds when our opinoins are informed through our state of comfort.

The roles of oppressors and the oppressed in protests are never clear, supporting or opposing a protest is not something that should be taken lightly. Analysis beyond “did they block a road too long” or “did they damage private property” or “do I believe in this cause” is necessary to capture the scope of protests as indicators of social emergencies.

Ultimately, what is occurring in the United States should be of utmost worry to anyone living there. Not because of the discomfort they cause, but because of how the oppressors will, inevitably and naturally, react to how the oppressed protested.

A few months after being elected, Felipe Calderon laid the last nail in the coffin of civil policing in this country. In truth, it was a long time coming, ever since the creation of the Federal Directorate of Security and it’s transformation into the National Intelligence Center later on. Ever since the “Federal Preventive Police” was stripped from most of its investigators and turned into the “Federal Police.” Everything predating that fateful operation in Michoacan 13 years ago led to a transformation of police from a preventative scope into an active scope.

Because active policing is, inevitably, more violent and expensive than preventative. Having societies work well, however, is harder than having them work forcefully. It requires tools that oppressors in government never want the public to have, because it limits their power and ability to stop societal inertia that keeps them from impacting.

Oppressors are not always governments, are not always majority groups. One can be oppressed and oppressing at the same time. Some, not all (certainly not justice) interactions in society are zero-sum, and negative externalities of some will affect others. It is part of why protests are so complex and so hard to understand. It is why sometimes, some people will have to be oppressed in order to have others less oppressed. The balance of oppression is harder to swallow than it might look on the outside. Sometimes we don’t understand what things are oppressing us, and freeing us.

Oppressors must, sometimes, loosen their hold of power, because if they don’t they risk losing all power. The reason why protests are important indicators is because sometimes protests lead to oppressors loosening their grasp. Making the oppressed more free. The loosening and tightening of the grip of power happens dynamically; whenever an oppressor can, it will hold more, because it serves what they believe their purposes should be. Same is true of the oppressed.

What I’m worried about in the US is that, we know this story. We know it here.

We, under the guise of maintaining comfort, under the guise of maintaining order, have made our police into brutal, sanguinare, shameless corps; which keeps trying to force a dysfunctional, impossibly complex and misunderstood society into working. We have murdered our way into the twenty first century, sometimes successfully forcing society, others not so much.

When the protests are over, when Americans return to their places of work, and the legislators to their chambers, do not accept senseless oppression. Do not lose sight of the terribly dangerous power of comfortable idiots, who vote insensitive ignorants into office, who pass unrealistic bills into law. Don’t let them seduce you with security and simple solutions, we fell for it and it was the worst figurative one night stand this country has been through.

It is harder than saying government should be small or big, or if guns should be legal or not, or if bussing and affirmative action is bad. It’s hard to balance the roles powerful individuals should play, and how individuals in society can be empowered.

Will the oppressors change for good? No. They never will. Protests are indicators that something is potentially wrong. Continued vigilance and participation of how the system is crafted is the only thing that might make things right.

MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) > Spanfeller is a twat 06/03/2020 at 21:19

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This was very well written, you make some excellent points. Thank you 

jimz > Spanfeller is a twat 06/03/2020 at 21:24

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Yep. Trump telling governors to “DOMINATE” and people like Tom Cotton saying the military should go in is proof we’re no better than those countries we regularly accuse of human rights violations. He’s a bully, and anyone who still supports this behavior is a wannabe bully as well. I only hope desperately that the men and women in our armed forces remember they swore an oath to the Constitution and not one particular man.

I forget who said it, but I remember reading that “fascism will come to American wrapped in the flag and carrying a Bible.”

RPM esq. > Spanfeller is a twat 06/03/2020 at 21:28

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Well said. Thanks for this.

RangerSmith > Spanfeller is a twat 06/03/2020 at 21:32

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Appreciate the concern. But outside of the major cities... America isn’t like what is shown on the national(US) news stations. Look to local or regional news stations for what America is really like. We all generally get along. We look out for each other. We actually embrace diversity. Becau se that’s actually what made America the greatest nation on earth.

But it is an election year... So people will stir the pot just to place blame whichever incumbent they don’t like.

fintail > jimz 06/03/2020 at 21:39

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Sinclair Lewis

Bible addicts and gun-humping flag-waving nationalists are dangerous forces.

Spanfeller is a twat > RangerSmith 06/03/2020 at 21:41

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Protests are very rarely representative of the whole. To be frank, I’m not scared that America will become a failed state, I’m scared that these protests and lootings will lead to further militarization and centralization of police in America. This can happen dynamically, as I argued, and I fear people will want to simplify what’s going on, and unacceptable decisions will be taken right under your noses. It’s what happened here, and worse still, it’s a vicious cycle. 

Spaceball-Two > fintail 06/03/2020 at 21:41

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When fascism comes to America it will be draped in the flag and wearing a cross.

thatsmr > Spanfeller is a twat 06/03/2020 at 21:50

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I like this. Without going too deep into the rabbithole, just think about how Eric Garner for instance was treated for selling cigarettes, and how people are treated for housing discrimination, predatory loans, etc. Just a thought.

Spanfeller is a twat > thatsmr 06/03/2020 at 21:51

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There is injustice, and it should be challenged. 

RangerSmith > Spanfeller is a twat 06/03/2020 at 21:52

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You are 100% right in that regard. It’s happened here as well. I think what we have going for us this time, is we have recently seen some of our state and local governments try some over authoritarian measures during the corona-virus. People’s appetite/tolerance seems low for any more.

Where I live, my governor banned fishing and much of the hunting for about two months, during a time when people were out of work and couldn’t go to the grocery store. It was barely enforced, most of the state ignored the order and the people that needed to fish, fished.

jimz > RangerSmith 06/03/2020 at 22:06

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We all generally get along. We look out for each other. We actua lly embrace diversity.

that’s bullshit. my parents are of the “white flight” generation. i.e. they were kids when white people left the cities in the ‘50s and ‘60s. The vile shit they still say to this day disproves your claim. I still hear people that age refer to January 18 as “James Earl Ray Day.”

and I see it every day in the county I live in. Traffic (and accidents/deaths) keep getting worse and worse as formerly rural areas get built up more. Why? because scared white people need to move a few miles further away from Detroit.

I’m at the point where I think this shit is going to fester for longer than my natural life. 

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > jimz 06/03/2020 at 22:20

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To be fair, police departments are not going to bring out their militarised gear, argue with and provoke peaceful protesters, and carry out needless escalation of arrests and violence because Trurmp told them to.

They’re going to do all that because that’s what they have been conditioned, for decades, to do . I’ve been watching this exact same thing unfold in my hometown—the cops squander numerous opportunities to de-escalate a scene. They are trigger-happy and the commanders are under pressure to “act now or look like a failure.” So the bad actors start to scuffle, the cuffs come out, the tear gas comes out, peaceful protest is ruined. Disclaimer: Some incidents are purely arson/rioting and not an actual protest, but that’s a different issue.

Arresting lawbreakers is not wrong, but you’re not doing yourself any favours by soliciting the ire of protesters.

For Sweden > Spanfeller is a twat 06/03/2020 at 22:20

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Look, I know you’re marching and arguing for your right to exist, but I really want a free pair of pants, so I’m going to create a distraction by looting this store.

Spanfeller is a twat > RangerSmith 06/03/2020 at 22:22

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I made the post keeping my “personal” judgements of particular protests to myself. But to be honest, I just think it’s disingenous to consider fishing and hunting anything other than recreational activities in the modern age, specially with the widespread availability of foodbanks. Evidently it’s not a matter of “restricting for res triction’s sake ” either.

I think many measures put in place by governments were, at times, too aggressive. But certainly not the ones placed in the US in general as far as I’m aware of them. I’m glad my government in particular chose not to place obligatory shelter in place orders because of the absolute lack of transparency and trust in police here and their track record of human rights violations like torture, extrajudicial murder, and assassinations of suspected criminal’s families. However, given the experience of other nations I’m acutely aware of the social costs that the lax approach is causing. Today we had a higher death count from COVID-19 than the US did, consider our population is a third of the US’

jimz > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 06/03/2020 at 22:23

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A guy I read who was in the Army and was out on deployment in Iraq and Afghanistan said “Police in this country get away with shit that would have had me serving a life sentence in Leavenworth had I done those things to an enemy combatant.”

Think about that. Our armed forces have stricter rules over what they can do to people we are at war against than police officers can do to their fellow citizens. all so a privileged class can keep their station in life and not have to think about anything that makes them sad.

jimz > For Sweden 06/03/2020 at 22:34

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you’re assuming the people protesting the death of George Floyd and the people looting stores are one and the same. I see a lot of tattooed white people being arrested for mayhem. Chief Craig even said a lot of the people they’ve arrested in the Detroit protests don’t live in the city.

Don’t side with the opportunists.

For Sweden > jimz 06/03/2020 at 22:36

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I’m literally suggesting they are different people.  One people wants to live as humans.  The other is speaking over them.

jimz > For Sweden 06/03/2020 at 22:39

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then maybe you should make your intent clearer. because I can’t tell if you’re being a sea lion or a troll right now. 

For Sweden > jimz 06/03/2020 at 22:45

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Read it again.

Look, I know you’re marching and arguing for your right to exist, but I really want a free pair of pants, so I’m going to create a distraction by looting this store.  

Two characters. One character is speaking to the other character without listening.  A enormous “but” that completely disregards what came before it.

DipodomysDeserti > RangerSmith 06/03/2020 at 22:45

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“ But outside of the major cities... America isn’t like what is shown on the national(US) news stations. Look to local or regional news stations for what America is really like. We all generally get along. We look out for each other. We actually embrace diversity.”

Minneapolis has less than 1/10 the population of the city I live in. Sanford, Florida, has less people than the university I attend. Ferguson has less than a 1/3 of the population of my university. I think more people live in my neighborhood than Brunswick, Georgia.

If you think these issues are isolated to big cities, and that small towns universally  embrace diversity, your head is firmly planted in the sand. Some of the biggest flashpoints in regards to police brutality have come from smaller municipalities.

zipfuel > RangerSmith 06/03/2020 at 22:59

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As an outsider who’s been around those little towns I fear you may be sitting on the metaphorical comfortable couch.
The amount of high-tech gerrymandering and voter suppression (deleting rolls, ID laws, cutting polling stations) that keeps the southern states red is unbelievable to anyone who’s from elsewhere - the fox has all the keys to the henhouse and those same good ol’ boys set mandatory minimum sentences and run the cops too.

We’re just seeing Trump warming up to be suppressor in chief by claiming postal voting is somehow going to lead to rampant fraud (proven bullshit postal voting is common worldwide ) and suing states who roll it out because if more disadvantaged people vote they won’t vote for him . In a non oppressive idealistic democracy the aim should be to make sure everyone is heard and equally but that doesn’t serve those in power right now.

The Mk1 human is exactly the same the world over, individuals are all basically decent to one another but racism is systemic and hoo boy do you guys have some quality legacy systems .

jminer > RangerSmith 06/03/2020 at 23:48

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I would disagree with that sentiment. While most people are generally polite to each other they are also generally shitty when it really comes down to it . I’ve spent my life in the rural midwest and while they’re generally nice to you if you’re a white man the most hateful things I have ever heard in my life have come from folks very nice to me, but said awful things about those that do not look like me or do not have the same genitalia as me.

There is a serious and long burned in hate that exists across long swaths of this country. I literally see dozens confederate flags every day and there is no excuse for this , they carry the same message as a Swastika does and those that display them know this.

RangerSmith > zipfuel 06/04/2020 at 00:44

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As an outsider who’s been around those little towns I fear you may be sitting on the metaphorical comfortable couch.

Swing and a miss. I know it’s popular to check each others privilege these days but I’d like to remind everyone that is the definition of prejudice . Part of the reason people are marching is to remind everyone that even though we are all created equal, we aren’t always treated equal by everyone, all of the time.

I live in Washington, and I would prefer not to have vote by mail. We have one of the better systems in the country. While t he idea is good, it looks weird when the state says “we found some more votes that we didn’t count last time.” How do I know my vote has been counted or when it was counted? Why should it take weeks to find out the results? Especially when my bank, the IRS, social media can all verify identity in seconds.

Back to the actual topic of the post...in general, Americans have a well earned reputation(kind of like Aussies are all criminals, haha). Historically, when there is a common goal, we are unified. And like I said in my first comment, I’m starting to think we are more unified than I thought a couple of days ago. If you only watched any of the three letter news giants, you’d think the entire country is on fire, that the right is sabotaging BLM protests, and everything is Trump’s fault. The reality is that big cities still have big city problems, our career politicians at our state and local levels are just as feckless as the ones at the national level. But watching many of the smaller stations, or attending marches in smaller areas: I am very encouraged by how many different people come together and agree on the same things. We need to have better police accountability in some areas where it still lacks. We all agree that racism is wrong.

I don’t agree with Obama on everything. But one thing that he’s been consistent on for a long time is that our biggest sphere of influence is at our local levels. We can’t just circle the wagons and expect someone in Washington DC to fix everything for us.

nerd_racing > RangerSmith 06/04/2020 at 08:08

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I don’t know what small corner of America you live in, but some of the most racist and ignorant people I have ever met are from small towns and rural areas.  The problem is very systematic and I am beyond tired of just quietly ignoring it.  

RangerSmith > jimz 06/04/2020 at 09:03

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His post was clear. My posts are clear. It’s clear that you’re upset and contrarian to anything anyone posts here.