More good news from the AMA

"ImmoralMinority" (araimondo)
06/02/2020 at 09:29 • Filed to: None

“Thus, up to this time of the pandemic in North America, children continue to face a far greater risk of critical illness from influenza than from COVID-19...”

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We need to stop selling kids’ education short. MY son’s high school just announced a reduced schedule for fall. We need to open schools. Education is essential.

DISCUSSION (30)

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > ImmoralMinority
06/02/2020 at 09:47

I don’t think anyone is saying we need to keep kids home from school for their own safety but because schools are a great way to spread disease, especially one that hides so well within kids. It’s for everyone else’s protection that schools are closed. I think it’s a little premature to be altering schedules for the fall already, at most they should just be giving you a heads up that it might happen.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > ImmoralMinority
06/02/2020 at 09:51

It’s not so much the fact that they can be harmed themselves as the fact that they can transmit the disease easily to those less well equipped to fight it off.

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s
06/02/2020 at 09:51

Scho ol is closed until the normal end of the school year (late June) here, but it’s all back to normal for the fall at this point.

AdamB > ImmoralMinority
06/02/2020 at 09:53

I definitely hope school will be open. My high school has not announced a schedule yet, though NY is doing better than before. Hopefully the protests don’t bring the numbers back up. Online learning is much worse than learning in person, though I rather do that instead of going out into a high risk environment.

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars
06/02/2020 at 09:56

They opened yesterday here in BC (optionally with staggered days)

DAWRX - The Herb Strikes Back > ImmoralMinority
06/02/2020 at 09:59

I think the reason schools are and/or remain closed is because the school s could become massive centers of disease spread. From my memories of overcrowded public schools I could see how easily SARS-CoV-2 could s pread throughout the whole student population, especially since kids generally aren’t safety/hygiene conscious. This is why kids are required to be vaccinated to attend public school, which the vast majority of people agree is a reasonable idea.

Sure, for the most part kids don’t get Covid-19 from SARS-CoV-2, but they can easily be asymptomatic and spread it to their parents, who then spread it at the grocery store, work, to people who are high risk, to grandma & grandpa, etc. What about if the parents themselves are high risk? Do they have to completely isolate themselves from their kids?

I understand its a rock and a hard place scenario, but maybe the burden should be shifted to schools to create excellent learning-from-home programs. Sure, not everyone learns well at home, but not everyone learns well at school either. Reduced school capacity only for school programs that need students to be there in person (woodshop type classes , art, engineering, compsci, band) to help limit the spread could be a useful compromise?

jimz > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s
06/02/2020 at 10:02

“Reopen schools” is just the latest bot-fueled astroturfing campaign people are buying hook, line, and sinker.

vondon302 > ImmoralMinority
06/02/2020 at 10:03

It would be a great time to do a Marshall plan on education but with Devoss in charge of the department of Education, I doubt it will happen.

jimz > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer
06/02/2020 at 10:04

but remember, we should sacrifice the weak (grandma and grandpa) so the rest of us can go to Applebee’s and SuperCuts.

from the same people who screamed about “death panels killing grandma and grandpa” when the discussion was health care.

jimz > DAWRX - The Herb Strikes Back
06/02/2020 at 10:06

funny how it’s coming from the same people who relentlessly shit on public schools and support home schooling, but now that their kids have to learn from home they don’t want none of that shit.

guess the mindset of wanting to have everything and give nothing is common across the political spectrum.

Wacko > ImmoralMinority
06/02/2020 at 10:07

So is free healthcare but America doesn’t get that either

TheRealBicycleBuck > DAWRX - The Herb Strikes Back
06/02/2020 at 10:08

My son is one of those kids who doesn’t do well in a study-at-home situation. He really struggled over the last two months. I’m fortunate that my wife doesn’t work and can help him manage his schoolwork, but I recognize that many people don’t have that luxury.

We have several friends who are teachers. One of them told us that she’s been instructed to prepare for teaching class online in the fall. They aren’t saying that’s what will happen, but they want the teachers to be prepared. The big challenge here is that most teachers never received training on how to teach online. It’s really, really hard. I can’t imagine that working with younger kids.

I don’t know what the solution is here. Education is really important. I have the feeling that we will end up sending all the kids to school, we’ll have a major outbreak, we’ll lose a bunch of the at-risk population, then we’ll reach a point of herd immunity.

3point8isgreat > ImmoralMinority
06/02/2020 at 10:13

My wife is a high school teacher, and just had a meeting discussing what to do for the fall.

It seems the main concerns are:

Kids getting the “experience” of going to school. - I get this, but I think it’s a weak point relative to the others. They’re not even complaining about the quality of education. Just missing out on the experience.

Since you mentioned it,o nline classes can be hit or miss on quality. S ome schools going soft on them and purposely making them easier or making it so student’s can’t fail is ridiculous. Although there does need to be flexibility for special cases. But I know online classes can work because I’ve done them and it worked great. It was super helpful being able to pause and rewatch sections of lectures for example.

Health and Safety - but people seem to only focus on the kids themselves. There is also the concern of all the faculty. While younger people may not be at as much risk, the faculty doesn’t get that benefit. There is also the risk of the kids spreading it to at risk people outside of school (See MasterMario’s comment). Faculty being willing to risk their lives should not be assumed. Teaching is not a career path people choose with “I could die because of this” in mind.

Parents unable to stay home - I think this is probably the biggest thing in favor of opening schools again. Childcare is insanely expensive. And most jobs will expect people back at work by this fall. So it’s not fair to assume that the parents have any way of dealing with childcare in the absence of sending them to school.

In the face of the last 2 I really don’t know what the answer is. It’d be great if there were an “open, but do things different” type of solution. But what risk mitigation methods are there that would work?

S ocial distancing won’t work in schools. They’re already stuffed full. There’s no room to spread people out 6ft. Rooms could fit maybe 6-10 people in them, when there’s supposed to be 25-30 students.

Relying on kids to wear masks seems like a losing battle.

Over the top cleaning won’t be able to keep up.

Maybe something like having students stay in the same room all day, and it’s the teachers that move rooms? This has issues like class schedule logistics. But I’m just trying to throw out some ideas.

So I guess from a pure logistics I have to agree they’d need to open. If parents don’t have any other option for childcare, what can you really do? But I do think we should as a society come up with SOME kind of risk mitigation regarding the virus. I don’t want to just rely on getting lucky that the virus really is getting weaker. There should be solutions that allow us to both open schools AND try to slow the spread.

DAWRX - The Herb Strikes Back > TheRealBicycleBuck
06/02/2020 at 10:14

I really wish the conversation wasn’t “this isn’t working that well, lets go back to the other thing that’ s not that good either but that’ s what we’re comfortable with” instead of “lets make the best of this and take advantage of this opportunity create better learning environments and opportunities for everyone” .

Unfortunately it seems like herd immunity is a long time and a lot of deaths away without a vaccine.

DAWRX - The Herb Strikes Back > jimz
06/02/2020 at 10:15

Like I said to TRBB: I really wish the conversation wasn’t “this isn’t working that well, lets go back to the other thing that’s not that good either but that’s what we’re comfortable with” instead of “lets make the best of this and take advantage of this opportunity create better learning environments and opportunities for everyone”

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > ImmoralMinority
06/02/2020 at 10:19

While “opening up” schools will be important and essential for a lot of activities, particularly music, the arts, and athletics, we also should keep in mind that there were some benefits from distance learning and using technology in lieu of a traditional classroom. I could easily see the initial balance being that the physical building is only for these activities as well as some tutoring or “office hours” lectures.

Tycho Brahe of Penny Arcade had a great write up of how his son is excelling in his studies due to the distancing - https://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2020/05/20/shaving

Also, many teachers and school administrators tend to be older, and possibly with health issues. I’m sure many of them could find benefits in not p hysically being around kids.

Chariotoflove > ImmoralMinority
06/02/2020 at 10:36

I pivoted to finishing my course online, and I don’t think we suffered for quality. However, that was a college/professional course. For general and secondary education, I think it is unusual for a kid to get the same caliber of education completely online. I have friends who home school successfully. Even they have lots of outings and interactions with other home school students. Museums , theaters, etc all have field trip like programs for home schooled students.

We also need to think of the total family situation. Very many families cannot afford to stay home and supervise their minor children. They have to work, and kids at young ages don’t learn effectively without guidance. Very many parents, including highly educated ones, don’t have the expertise to teach, and learning to teach effectively is another job on top of the jobs they do to support their families.

This is all to say that online education comes with great opportunities, and we should take advantage of them to enhance our kids’ education. Online is not a substitute. We need to get kids back in school. I think the summer will teach is a lot about what that will look like.

DAWRX - The Herb Strikes Back > 3point8isgreat
06/02/2020 at 10:38

Maybe something like having students stay in the same room all day, and it’s the teachers that move rooms?

I like this, ignoring the other problems with it. I think they do something similar in japan.

TheRealBicycleBuck > DAWRX - The Herb Strikes Back
06/02/2020 at 10:38

Agreed. It’s funny that this situation has pointed out to educators and parents alike that “one size” doesn’t fit all. The big losers in the stay-at-home education situation are the kids who find it difficult to perform to expectations, the kids who can’t afford the equipment necessary to make at-home education viable, and the families who can’t afford to have an adult at home to watch over the kids who are staying at home.

It’s no secret that my kids have attended private schools their entire education. Even the private schools are struggling to make this work, so it’s not just about money. Many of the parents who send their kids to private schools have to have two incomes to make it work, so even they are feeling the strain.

When I was teaching, the dean was pushing to convert as many of our lower-level courses to online only. One particularly talented professor had converted one of his freshmen-level courses to an online format and after several semesters of testing, it seemed to be working. The course was a simple course that didn’t require a lot of interaction, so meeting once a week in person for quizzes and Q/A sessions was fine.

We pushed back hard . The dean didn’t consider how much interaction was required for other courses. For my entry-level courses, I had to update my lectures to reflect the latest versions of the software packages every year. There was also a lot of over-the-shoulder sessions with the students as they learned how to navigate software when many of them didn’t even have computers at home. We made it clear to the dean that pre-recorded online-only courses were not a viable option.

The same holds true for a lot of learning, especially at the lower grade levels. I do not envy teachers these day.

DipodomysDeserti > ImmoralMinority
06/02/2020 at 11:20

I’m still teaching at two schools that I have a long relationship with. We’ll probably have our finals in person. I can’t teach online again. I’d rather get sick.

Future next gen S2000 owner > ImmoralMinority
06/02/2020 at 11:25

Sure it’s essential, but could be a gap year. Everyone takes a year off, and goes back to their scheduled class or tests ahead and doesn’t miss a year.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > ImmoralMinority
06/02/2020 at 11:34

You know I’m not that scared of my kids getting COVID but what about the teachers, and other staff? What about my children’s grand parents?

I want to see schools opened too but at this point without any real data about who has already been sick, who is sick etc.. there are to many unknowns for a re-opening of schools.

Our school is talking about reducing student attendance by 50%. Lets be frank, that is a joke too. There is no way to keep kids away from each other and prevent the spread of an air born virus in a school environment.

My kids are sucking at online education and I know the teachers hate it to. My daughter was an honor roll student... until they cl osed school. She’s failing one class and will likely get C’s and B’s in her other classes. This is with my wife home making sure they are doing their work.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > jimz
06/02/2020 at 11:55

I’m not in favour of exchanging freedoms for an someone's arbitrary opinion of common good, and I get the concept that freedoms given up are hard to regain... But seriously. There are times you have to give way temporarily. It's a life and death situation. And it you have to fight to get the freedoms back later, well, if you can't bring yourself to do that... Did it really matter to you in the first place? The entire USA is built around the ability to fight for what you believe in and standing up for yourself. As perverted as that view has been at some times.

To be clear I’m not going to take sides on either politics or policy down there... Personally I think everyone is crazy. But as a Canadian with the public healthcare everyone keeps screaming about, it’s not all it’s cracked up to be. Pure single-payer is a mess of long waits and second-tier care, your system provides better care and lower wait times while bankrupting people. Both are equally capable of killing grandpa and grandma. Personally I think some kind of copay makes sense but... It’s not like I’ve done a deep dive into it or anything.

jimz > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer
06/02/2020 at 12:07

I’m not in favour of exchanging freedoms for an someone’s arbitrary opinion of common good, and I get the concept that freedoms given up are hard to regain... But seriously. There are times you have to give way temporarily. It’s a life and death situation.

the issue is people think they have “freedoms” which don’t actually exist. the average American dummy thinks “freedom” means “I can do whatever I want and you can’t stop me, no matter what my actions do to others.” Freedom has never included the right to harm others; rights have always come along with responsibilites. that’s why lockdown and quarantine orders have held up in the courts whenever tested. Other people have rights too, and in cases like this it’s been held up that the public’s right to not catch a virulent disease outweighs your “ right” to go stuff your fat face at TGI Friday’s. like that whale who made a scene at Costco a few weeks ago over a mask. he sat their whining about his “Constitutional rights” because Costco was kicking him out for refusing to wear one. Show me in the Constitution where it says you have the god-given right to shop at Costco. I’ll wait right here.

(the vast majority of people who talk about the constitution have never read the damn thing)

ranwhenparked > ImmoralMinority
06/02/2020 at 12:13

We were told originally that schools had to be closed to protect the elderly, to keep kids from picking up the virus and giving it to grandma, since, aside from those with specific medical problems, children in general are not really at risk from it themselves.

Well, I would say the rationale kind of falls apart when you look at the tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, of people packed together with no social distancing at all the mass gatherings over the past several days. Surely these riots are just as good a venue for viral spread as schools, and schools are essential to our society, riots are at best an optional indulgence. Trying to contain the spread any further at this point is like dropping a roll of paper towels into the flooding hold of the Titanic.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > jimz
06/02/2020 at 12:20

Freedom has never included the right to harm others; rights have always come along with responsibilites. that’s why lockdown and quarantine orders have held up in the courts whenever tested.

Kinda my point, but worded better. It’s very much a “waving your fist around until it hits my nose” thing. And yeah, the people complaining that it’s not legal to force them to wear a mask... uh... do what you want in public, I can judge you but not enforce anything. You set foot in a property that I happen to own, you are consenting to any rules that I set for that property as long as they’re within the law.

Can I just slide in here though... gonna agree with IM on this one... please take it back a notch. It’s not “us vs them” (well, maybe a a small amount of “them”), it’s “us vs it” and we disagree on how to handle “it”. Discussion is useful, vitriol rarely is. *Smallbear proceeds to dismount from high horse and finds himself standing in a steaming heap of his own irony*

DipodomysDeserti > jimz
06/02/2020 at 13:59

We had multiple students on suicide watch after we closed campus. You’re talking out your ass. Most schools are hesitant to reopen on account of teacher safety.

DipodomysDeserti > jimz
06/02/2020 at 14:02

You’ve spouted your disdain for young people and old people here quite frequently. Don’t pretend like you give a shit either.

BigBlock440 > jimz
06/02/2020 at 14:51

Those people aren’t going into your house, what are you doing at TGI Friday’s anyway?

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever
06/02/2020 at 15:42

As far as I know they aren’t planning on opening ours back up until the fall over here!