Car Stereo Oppos

"Snuze: Needs another Swede" (markg) 05/24/2020 at 18:08 • Filed to: None

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I remember years ago when I had the WRX I put in a set of Infinity Reference series 2-way component speakers in the fronts and coaxials in the rear doors, and an MMATS 12" sub in a sealed enclosure with a 300w Alpine monobloc amp in the trunk . It was loud and pretty clear sounding, though I think the cheap-ish Pioneer deck kind of let it all down.

There was some chatter on here recently about JL going down in quality in the last few years. I know Infinity was descent but I have no idea these days. So are any companies left making decent speakers  these days?

AestheticsInMotion > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/24/2020 at 18:11

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Polk has some good ones. 

Tripper > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/24/2020 at 18:14

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Polk and JBL are my two faves. 

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > AestheticsInMotion 05/24/2020 at 18:18

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Second this. Although you need to be amplified for them to be any good. There's some brands that do fine with stereo power. But any of the better ones require more power. 

anyunusedusername > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/24/2020 at 18:18

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My current favorites for a little bit of everything is Audiofrog and Morel. As it’s always been, it’s all about budget and prep. Good prep and tuning can make very inexpensive parts sound good.

Shane Moore > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/24/2020 at 18:39

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Depends, just like laptops most manufacturers have their low models that dilute the brand name but JL still has top tier models. Most JL’s will emphasize clarity over a strong bass punch that a Rockford has. Like others have said Polk has stepped up their game but infinity went the other way and have stayed stagnant. Other players like sound ordinance and MB quartz have filled in the mid tier competition with lower tier pricing. It all depends on your budget and what you are looking for in your system. SPL, clarity, boomy, or just plain loud all sacrifice something in one of those categories in the name of price.

Edit:forgot about focal... they usually sounds great but cost great money to get the most out of them. 

Snuze: Needs another Swede > anyunusedusername 05/24/2020 at 19:28

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Its funny you bring up budget, prep, and tuning. I swear my Cruze sounds better than the optional, upgraded stereo in my wife’s Terrain Denali. Why? Well for one the Terrain has Bose (No highs? No lows? Must be Bose!), but also because of the speaker positioning. I n particular the Cruze has tweeters in the A- pillar firing roughly towards the listener. The Terrain relies on coaxials in the dash firing up at the windshield and reflecting towards the lister. But that really disrupts the highly directional, tight, high frequency sound, which is what really “colors” the music.

The weird thing is, I’m an engineer and work in the acoustic field, but my work is more on the sensing and analysis side, and also more in other substances besides air, so I just never have a need to look at speakers. But I appreciate the response and I’ll check those 2 companies out.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Tripper 05/24/2020 at 19:30

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We use JBL stuff at work, and it seems nice, but its bigger PA speakers and stuff.  Ill check out their car audio stuff.  Ive heard good things about Polk but have no first hand experience, but I'll give them a look. 

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 05/24/2020 at 19:31

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Good to know.  Im still in the very early planning stages and not sure if I want to go with a fully amplified system or not.  

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Shane Moore 05/24/2020 at 19:50

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Those are some good points. I guess the first thing is Im starting to roughly plan for my old Volvo. Its a 33 year old car, but a 44 year old design. Im planning to dynamat the heck out of it for both the sound and thermal benefits, but that 30-40 years gives up a lot in terms of base to work with (less NVH considerations back then, no layered glass, etc) so my starting base isn’t exactly great. So budget is an issue - I can’t see putting like a $10k stereo in a car that A) cost $1k and B) just isn’t that great of a base to start on.

I need to decide if I want to run all amplified or use the head unit to drive the speakers and just amplify the sub. What I am currently thinking is component speakers in the doors - 6.5" front and 5.25" rear with tweeters mounted up high and wired up with passive crossovers. Im an acoustic engineer, though I don’t work with airborne stuff (hence why Im dumb on speakers) but I understand the frequency/directivity relationship so I want to move the sound stage up as much as I can. I also want to put a smallish sub in, probably a 10" in a sealed enclosure, to round out the bottom end.

I listen to mostly rock and metal, so I look for clarity and response. I want to hear the ripping solos and stuff, and the 10" sub should give good bass but still be responsive.

I may add 2 more speakers back in the back somewhere - the wagon certainly has room, just need to think a bit more on that.  

Tripper > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/24/2020 at 20:18

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JBL isn’t as expensive as Polk etc...but like other oppos said, I’d go with an amp for polk speaks. 

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Tripper 05/24/2020 at 20:41

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Thanks. Of course thats going to lead me to wonder who makes good amps...

Im debating a 4 or 6 channel setup, and probably a single 10" sub, which will get its own amp. 

Tripper > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/24/2020 at 21:33

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Lol I am not an audiophile. I generally go with something cheap and well reviewed from crutchfield

Shane Moore > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/24/2020 at 21:45

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Sounds like you’ve got a good plan.

Here are a couple things I’ll throw your way. Amplified will 99% of the time bring a larger soundstage than using the head unit even when using cheap power.

Check out Toro Audio, they use a budget design from Massive Audio but improve the electronics portion to be stable down to even 1 ohm (important for subs) and switched to class D for efficiency. Now there are debates about AB vs class D sound quality but in a vehicle I don’t feel it is as important.

Also checkout Parts Express for closeout Subs and the Dayton Audio line of subs especially the Ultimax. I have the old design by TC Sounds Epic 10”. Responds well to a sealed box and gets down as low as 12’s but recreates a bass drum kick almost as good as my HSU Research 15 in my HT.

I just redid the stock system in my wrangler and used some marine equipment out of a ice chest sound system I built. It’s marine equipment but rears are Rockford fosgates and front is Polk. I would recommend looking for a silk tweeter (like the Polk or JL)  over the PEI or Volcano style tweeter. To my ears it is so much more crisp on cymbals and vocals.

The amp is a marine MB Quart 4 channel which has pleasantly surprised me in my cooler stereos at $179. Not sure the non marine equivalent but I know at that price there is much more competition over the marine.

The sub is the TC Sounds I mentioned in .79 cu ft sealed box, polyfill is your friend. Powered by a toro MR2 which can deliver close to the recommended 500w RMS (480ish) at 1 ohm for only $79.

It does not sound as good as my slightly larger box and hifonics 1200w amp but it’s a Jeep so nothing is going to sound great and space is a premium.

Let me know if you have other questions but I wouldn’t blow your budget on great equipment. I would get pretty decent speakers, head unit with good sound processing abilities and some cheap amplification and rock out.

Rock and metal have some of the less complex audio reproduction requirements until you get into an audio obsessed band like TOOL or something produced by Jack White. Those guys can slave over a single frequency being right for hours

U. S. S. > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/24/2020 at 21:47

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The brands that are popular and making the best stuff now are all relatively new compared to jbl, jl, Polk, etc. If you looking for good quality speakers at decent prices and powerful amps that have been d d yno tested to prove there ratings you should go with Sundown Audio, CT Sounds, Crescendo, Alphard/ Deaf Bonce, Crossfire Car Audio, Wolf ram Audio. I could go on but if you look at some of those you can build an amazing system for much cheaper then back in the day. An amp that would have been $1,500 20 years ago is only $300 today and there tested to prove they put out the power the say they do while back in the day you had to just trust you got what you paid for.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > U. S. S. 05/24/2020 at 22:17

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Thanks for that info, Ill check some of those brands out!

i86hotdogs > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/25/2020 at 05:22

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I’ve got Rockford Fosgate three way speakers in the doors of the TC. It’s the only speakers in the van, no tweeters, no rear speakers. That, and a high powered Sony head unit upped my speaker quality ten fold. Might put one of those flat under-seat subs under the passenger seat later on. 

Rob209Cali > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/25/2020 at 07:44

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Sundown Audio, db audio, Skar Audio, are the top 3 competition grade subs, Sundown for the price of a JL Audio W7, makes JL look stupid frankly. JL has slipped imo, I had a pair of 12W6v1d2 back in the day that basically had me pounding louder than any show car in my valley in Cali. I also had a pair of first gen w3s in my other car, both with respective fosgate mono amps. I got a pair of JL 10w3v2d4 subs in a jl power wedge last year, now they pounded hard as hell, but, with 500 watts pushing them both wired at 4ohms parallel to eachother, voice coils in series to total a 4 ohm load which is safest for w3 subs from my experience, and after 7 months or so my right one has burned a coil bad enough to pop when really cranked. They should handle 600 watts rms no issues. Yet 500 burnt one in less than a year. Both sets of my first gen jl subs lasted YEARS and still pounded when I sold them.

This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja: > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/25/2020 at 10:03

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Diymobileaudio.com is where you want to go.

You only need one pair of tweets, up front, by way of either components or coaxials. You almost never want to add tweets or coaxials to the rear if Soundstage is even a remote consideration.

Mid to high end J L models are fine. MB quart are junk these days. Fosgate sound like dogshit. Focals are good, expensive. My money would probably go to Audiofrog for components up front and mid bass in rear, a cheap Dayton DSP, some affordable but decent amps of your choosing. AF make good subs too, but I’d probably opt for something else considering the cost. (I went with a 15" RE Audio xx15v2, but space makes bass and proper enclosures can get large quickly, especially if vented.)

anyunusedusername > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/25/2020 at 10:53

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I did sound competitions and big installs in the late 80's and 90's when it was mostly about loud and then moved into more sound quality stuff. I had a ton of fun with it. I cannot remember a time when the best cars no matter what the goal was were the ones that had the most care into the prep work and set up. When the DSPs hit, it became a bit of black magic for a while and staging arrived in far more simple and inexpensive designs. What can be done with a decent DSP, extra effort in mounting and good tuning is just phenomenal these days.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > anyunusedusername 05/25/2020 at 18:48

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That’s really cool. I still remember seeing some big systems back in the 90s, though I was coming of age towards the end of the stereo boom, so to speak. I did have a Navy buddy in the early 2000s who had a crazy rig in a Dodge Neon. His trunk was basically just an enclosure for 4x12s. He beat it so hard parts routinely fell off - once we were going down the highway and the spoiler blew off!

Thanks again for all the info and advice. I guess I need to start learning about DSPs. 

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Shane Moore 05/25/2020 at 19:39

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That is ton of information, thank you so much. Regarding music, I should have specified that I am into technical and prog metal, stuff like Tool, Opeth, Animals as Leaders, etc. Stuff where reproduction requirement is going to be just a bit higher than like ACDC or Metallica.

Is Hifonics good stuff? I actually had an amp by them, a Zeus 5 channel. My original plan was to run my door speakers and a sub with it back in the WRX, but when I got the deal on the MMATS/Alpine I got lazy and just used that and ran the door speakers off the head unit. Last year I rediscovered the amp, and without a project car at the time, I sold it for a couple hundred bucks. Should I be kicking myself?

I need to pick a head unit. I really want to keep the 80' s feel of the car and LOVE the look of the new Blaupunkt Bremen re-release but I’ve heard the new stuff doesn’t hold a candle to the old stuff, though. The other think Im think ing, is it possible to run no head unit? I’d ultimately end up using my phone as a music source, and for nav, and I don’t want a screen in the car, so maybe some kind of dock?

Beyond that I think I've been talked into running an amp (especially if I go headless?) for all channels.  So now I need to start picking out speakers, amps, etc. 

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Tripper 05/25/2020 at 19:46

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Thats kind of where Im at.  I want nice, but also not to drain my bank account. That's why Im soliciting opinions, so I can get some good ideas and start putting together a parts list and work up a budget. 

Tripper > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/25/2020 at 19:50

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Ive used kicker in the past with good experiences. Most recently I bought one of those tiny “inline” amps from alpine for the system in my truck. It was like $100 and it kicks ass! Particularly in my little ranger.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja: 05/25/2020 at 20:04

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Thank you so much, this is the kind of info I was looking for. I also stumbled through a few threads in DIYmobileaudio but I haven’t waded too deep, yet.

Assume for a second I am making custom door cards and can fit any speakers I want. Do I want to go bigger in the front and smaller in the back? I was thinking 6.5" up fronts with the tweeters up high, and 5.25" coax in the rear. Car is a Volvo wagon, so the sub and amps will probably go in the right rear, opposite the spare tire. I could also add speakers in the rear sides or rear hatch but am not sure if thats necessary. That also means 6 speakers and requires more/bigger amp(s).

Also, any advice for head units? I love the idea of the new Blaupunkt Bremen reissue head unit - I want to keep an 80s euro motif in the interior so no gaudy crap, no modern stuff, no huge screens. But Ive heard its pretty crap. If my phone is already going to be my music source and nav and stuff, is it possible to run with no head unit and pipe it all right into the amp so I could just have a discrete phone dock?

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Rob209Cali 05/25/2020 at 20:05

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Thanks for the info!

Shane Moore > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/25/2020 at 22:08

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Good musical taste. Accurate reproduction is what you are after then it sounds like. Hifonics is a good brand but not great, they made great mono amps and good multichannel but that was a while ago. Now they don’t hold value due to much more efficient ways of making power. Still good stuff but the price point is no longer justified in my opinion.

As far as needing a head unit? You can absolutely do without it. That opens up som options but also some new items to budget. You can a Bluetooth adapter like this:

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_13691126/JL-Audio-MBT-RX.html

Again it’s marine because I’ve used it in my cooler setup. BUT I know 100% it works and works well. But the caveat is you have to have your amps setup exactly as you want as far as levels and crossovers because you don’t have a head unit to adjust. The volume would be fully dependent on your phone and the “eq” is the phone as well.

Secondly you can use a sound processor or equalizer between the Bluetooth or phone input and the amp. Some have apps you can connect laptop or tablet to adjust, some are manual adjust but give you more control.

https://www.audiocontrol.com/car-audio/in-dash-processors/three-2/

This one can be dash mounted and takes the 2 channel input and separates front/rear/sub channels as preouts to your amp(s).

Now you can get an all in one amp that can take the same 2 channel input and separate the same thing and use the fairly limited equalizer/crossover to tune the sound a bit:

https://www.jlaudio.com/collections/car-audio-amplifiers/products/xd700-5v2-car-audio-xd-amplifiers-98606

That will also allow you to add a remote to control the level. You can also do the same with the cheaper MB Quart I mentioned but the you would come out of the full range mix output to your sub amp and use a low pass filter.

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_049MA14404/MB-Quart-MA1-440-4.html

Now that I’ve got you thoroughly confused ima hit you with one of the more impressive pieces of hardware I’ve played with:

https://www.audiocontrol.com/car-audio/power-amplifiers/d-61200/

That is a built in DSP, amplifier, 30-band equalizer, built in bass restorer that you can program completely with your laptop. I’ve even ran room correction software and imported the frequency correction   to the software but clearly that would be overkill for your situation.

All of my links and suggestions were just that. A guide in a direction, please don’t look at the item and price and say there is no way. Prices vary on which level tier you want to spend money on. I REALLY enjoy sound/music/speakers but it is not my job and the items I use I purchase for me or close friends. My personal Home setup has 3 subwoofers in it one 15” and two 10” for the R/L mains. It’s overkill but I enjoy it. The first time I listened to 10,000 days on it I had to repeat the entire album.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Shane Moore 05/26/2020 at 10:15

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Thank you so much. This is a bit confusing, but good confusing, if that makes sense. So much to learn and figure out and you’ve given me a great starting point. I’ve tried searching on my own and I find the entry level tutorials to be too entry level, but looking on forums I get easily overwhelmed.

Im already drooling over that Audio Control D6.1200. Now Im weighing pros and cons of a head unit, and if I want to use discrete components or just buy a sort of all-in-one solution like that? So many options and possibilities!

As I mentioned, this is going in an old Volvo, so I have a similar conundrum to your Jeep. Even with a lot of D ynamat and effort, its just not going to be as good of a base as a more modern car. But it also currently has no stereo head unit, and I’m sure the factory paper cone speakers are dry rotted. So its all about finding that balance of money/time/effort vs. reward. The car also needs a serious tune up (fluids, ignition system, timing belt, etc.) And has some minor rust spots to address. So its going to be probably 6 months to a year before I really dive into the stereo.

But I’ve also worn the systems engineering hat in previous jobs, so I’m keen on making a cohesive w hole and also not repeating work if I can avoid it. Im going to have to gut part of the interior to get to some of the rust. So in my mind Im going “well if I do some, why not do it all?” That way I can look for any other undiscovered or potential issues. And since its gutted I can install Dynamat. And I’ll h ave access to everything so I can look at wiring, so I may as well start planning speaker wiring. And down the rabbit hole I go.

My home system is a Klipsch 5.1 from the early 2000s, back when they were still making good stuff, driven by a Yamaha receiver. Its perfect for my needs and sounds great. When the wife isn’t home I like to blast some metal on it and open up my rear sliding door and let the neighb orhood listen along!

This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja: > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/26/2020 at 11:44

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Enjoy, that rabbit hole goes deeper than most! Compared to many of the people on that forum, I have no idea what I’m talking about. lol

Realistically you can have an excellent sounding system with just the 6.5 components and a sub, you don’t really want or need to be adding speakers all over the place. Especially when it comes to highs.

If it were me I’d put the 6.5's in the front doors, plus tweeters . Tweet location is very much a personal preference and ideal location often comes after much trial and error. (temporary installs with double sided tape, velcro, etc, until you dial it in and do a more permanent install.) Usually trying to avoid reflections from sound bouncing off of the windshield or anywhere else is the ultimate goal there.

Some people actually build custom kick panels down by your feet and put both the 6.5 and tweets down there, which can work great but can also be a PITA to install and can be blocked by passengers so probably not a first choice, but it can sound great that way as well.

As for the rear, I’d skip the coaxials and go with either 6.5's or even a quality 6x9 if you can find one and it fits. You could run them full range but ideally these will be tuned for midbass via the dsp., Good for those kick drums and will help fill in the sound without allowing high frequencies to mess with the sound stage or otherwise become unpleasant (more than one pair of tweeters can often make things sound shrill and overwhelming, and coaxes are basically a mid with a tweet stuck in the middle.)

Aside from a sub, that would be it for speakers. You could stick more in the rear hatch for fill, but it’s unnecessary and can make tuning more difficult.

You won’t want or need any crossovers for this system, unless you really want to go passive. Not worth it in this day in age though. The Dayton DSP will replace all of the crossovers and allow you to fine tune the frequencies coming out of each speaker, set delay, and about a million other options. Also if you get the bluetooth module you can pair your phone to it and skip the head unit altogether if you so choose, as well as configure the dsp without the need for a computer.

You’ll obviously also need some amps. You don’t necessarily need to spend a fortune on them, but try not to buy junk either. You’ll need to ensure that you have a channel for each speaker and make doubly sure that any amp you buy has a separate input for each output. (So if it’s a 2 channel amp you’ll have left and right in and left and right out. However if you buy a 4 channel amp you want to make sure it has individual inputs for each channel. Not just one pair of inputs and 4 outputs.) This will allow you to DSP the signal before it’s amplified. You can do it post-amplification but it’s less ideal. Obviously keep your RMS goals in mind while shopping for amps. Underpowering a speaker can be worse than overpowering one, but matched is ideal.

As far as head units are concerned, I can’t be of much help. It’s been quite a while since I’ve bought one. My car really didn’t lend itself to aftermarket head units and this is the first system I’ve put in since y2k was a concern so I’m very much out of the loop on them. I do suggest you do your homework though. Last I looked there were a lot of them out there, some very good, some very bad, and a lot that cost a bunch and looked like a good idea at the time but left people with buyers remorse for one reason or another. Blaupunkt though... Factory HU in my dads 87 Porsche 930, and the first aftermarket HU brand I ever bought. Cassette, not CD. I have a soft spot for them and even though they were oft derided I did quite like the one that I had. Most people in the know would likely crap on them but if it suits the look you’re going for and can tether your phone for streaming direct to the DSP anyway, it’ll probably work fine for listening to the radio or CD’s or what have you.. I wouldn’t drop too much money on one though, and I’d keep my expectations in check. As I said, the last one I used was a cassette deck so my point of reference is probably as old as the Volvo, if not older. People don’t seem to like them very much though afaik.

Don’t skimp on wiring either. Source oxygen free copper in an appropriate gauge for your application. High strand count and silicone insulation makes for easier bending and routing, but I’ve also been known to use welding cable. Make sure it’s not copper clad aluminum as found in a lot of the cheap amp install kits if you can help it. Generally I’d run 0ga from the battery to a fuse block right next to the battery, then 0ga to a distribution block located near the amps. (You probably won’t need to go that beefy, but the more the merrier imho, just don’t go too thin.) From the distribution block the wire steps down to an appropriate gauge for the amp, goes to another fuse, then off to the amp itself. If you’re going to install a head unit and need to run RCA’s to the rear of the vehicle be sure to run them on the opposite side of the car from the power wires or you may get noise.

That should be a good foundation, but at the end of the day it all comes down to doing a quality install. You can buy the best of the best but if it’s slapped together poorly it’s not going to sound as good as it should. Make sure those door cards are well put together, rigid (especially the ring the speaker mounts to), and frequencies are well separated between the front and rear of the speaker. You might also consider sound deadening, but that’s another topic and rabbit hole all on it’s own.

Good luck and have fun!

Snuze: Needs another Swede > This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja: 05/26/2020 at 22:50

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Wow, thank you so much for all that detailed information. This is the kind of stuff I really need to know. I have never been a huge car audio guy, but I was coming of age in the 90s / early 2000s when big stereos with tons of speakers were the norm. It sounds like, at least for what I want, simple is better - 6.5" speakers in the front and rear doors, a pair of t weeters up on the dash or A-pillar or something, a single 10" sub, a DSP, amps, and maybe a head unit.

The DSP thing is new to me, so I need to learn a bit more. Ive seen some good things about the Daytons, but I want to learn more. Someone else told me about AudioControl, they make a unit that is both DSP and amplifier. It’s not cheap but it does simplify things. More research is definitely needed.

Ive heard Blaupunkt is now owned by the Chinese and most of their stuff is junk, but the Bremen looks sooooo good, perfectly fits the interior of the car. I hate to buy stuff just for looks, but nobody makes a decent retro 80s style head unit. At this point I feel like its that or just go headless. But I have at least a few months before I’m ready to do anything, the car needs a serious tuneup and some rust repair work first.