Good Morning, Oppo

"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn) 05/15/2020 at 10:29 • Filed to: good morning oppo, Planelopnik

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And Happy Friday.

This photo was taken in 1929 at Mills Field, which would eventually become San Francisco International Airport.   I know what the car is, but I’d give one free Internet to anybody w ho can ID tha t plane. I looked for a long time and came up empty. Like the car, it’s very possible that it was made by some now-obscure builder who no longer exists, or was gobbled up by other firms.

Future next gen S2000 owner > ttyymmnn 05/15/2020 at 10:37

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It’s a biplane! Probably a V configuration fo r the engine. Water cooled.

I’ll collect my internet points now!

Future next gen S2000 owner > ttyymmnn 05/15/2020 at 10:41

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Guess number two. Something from the Swallow Aircraft Company.

ttyymmnn > Future next gen S2000 owner 05/15/2020 at 10:42

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Actually, that’s the sort of search parameters I used. There were so many radial engine biplanes of that era, and that’s definitely an inline engine, possibly a Liberty engine . The shape of the radiator is a trait that could be used for ID, but I had no luck there. With no idea where to start, it becomes  a matter of browsing through Google image searches, which is a terribly inefficient method of research.

ttyymmnn > Future next gen S2000 owner 05/15/2020 at 10:44

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Interesting guess, especially because I’ve never heard of the company. But, at least based on Wiki, there’s no match. 

Future next gen S2000 owner > ttyymmnn 05/15/2020 at 10:50

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Inefficient but interesting.

facw > ttyymmnn 05/15/2020 at 10:51

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No idea on the plane. That automotive style radiator would have fallen out of fashion by the end of WWI (and wasn’t especially common before then), so it would likely have been thoroughly obsolete by 1929.

Curtis s seems to have been the big user of that sort of setup, but their radiators were more rounded at the top, and I don’t see them using that sort of cross bracing for the wing structure:

ttyymmnn > Future next gen S2000 owner 05/15/2020 at 10:51

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Oh, absolutely.

ttyymmnn > facw 05/15/2020 at 10:54

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I think our plane here was definitely later than 1915. Bracing seems much more modern. 

facw > ttyymmnn 05/15/2020 at 11:08

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I’m not sure, besides the Curtisses, the only planes I’ve seen in my image searching with similar radiator configurations are this replica 1913 Avro 504K, which has a different engine than every other 504k I can find a picture of:

And the 1918 Airco DH.9A

Obviously neither is a match, but it seem it was definitely not the way things were done in the 1920s, though I supposed there’s always a chance of an oddball.

facw > ttyymmnn 05/15/2020 at 11:17

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Though I guess the Douglas M-1 was so rt of similar in 1925, though it looks more modern that what we have:

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > ttyymmnn 05/15/2020 at 11:29

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The plane is a daft mutant, is what it is. Automotive-style radiator *tapered to the bottom*, large louvered hood, modern-style bracing still festooned with guywires to the extent of an old barnstormer , and what appears to be an all-moving tail like a WWI fighter?

It’s a mix of teens, twenties, and arguably thirties traits all in one plane.

ttyymmnn > facw 05/15/2020 at 11:29

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That’s why I’m guessing this is some sort of small company, short run, maybe even one-off airplane. I’ve looked through the lists of the big manufacturers of the day (Curtiss, Douglas, Boeing, etc) and can find no match. Hell, it could even be a single modified airplane. If I get bored today, which is quite likely, I’ll keep looking. 

ttyymmnn > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 05/15/2020 at 11:34

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Which supports my theory of it being a one-off, hell, maybe even a home-built. 

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > ttyymmnn 05/15/2020 at 11:40

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Somebody at Shorpy guesses that it’s an Alexander Eaglerock, and I’d have to say I suspe ct they’re right Not with either of the two normal engines, but Wiki says it was offered with other choices than the Hispano and Wright.

The shape of the fuselage is what dictated the weirdly-shaped radiator with taper at the bottom - the fuselage is thus tapered. Here’s one with the Hispano:

^another with unknown, more similar.

A similar one I ran across was a Bird BK.

ttyymmnn > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 05/15/2020 at 11:50

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Take your coupon, because I think you are right.

I looked at the Shorpy comments but didn’t see anybody make a guess. But I think that nailed it. The cowling louvers match up, as does the radiator and the struts. And it also fits into my theory of it being made by a long forgotten builder. Thanks!

ttyymmnn > facw 05/15/2020 at 11:51

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See RamblinRover’s comment. He found the answer on Shorpy, and I think it’s correct. As I suspected, it’s from some long-forgotten builder. 

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > ttyymmnn 05/15/2020 at 12:02

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I’m actually kind of impressed that not only are there some still flying, but that red and black is still flying *and* has an uncommon engine configuration exactly matching the picture. Or nearly exactly.

user314 > ttyymmnn 05/15/2020 at 12:11

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There’s a comment on Shorpy which indicates that it may be an   Alexander Eaglerock . Looks like most Eaglerocks were delivered with radial engines, but there’s one interesting image from an album donated to the San Diego Air & Space Museum by J ose Torre-Bueno:

What do you, the viewer at home, think?

ttyymmnn > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 05/15/2020 at 12:35

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Agreed. I imagine that back in the day people might swap aero engines in the same way you might swap an auto engine. The planes were certainly simple enough that such a swap should be fairly simple. 

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > ttyymmnn 05/15/2020 at 12:36

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I have always wondered who Shorpy is:

Former newspaper editors Dave Hall and Ken Booth run the site.

The blog is named after Shorpy Higginbotham , a child laborer who worked as a greaser in an Alabama coal mine. His portrait is Shorpy.com’s logo. Higginbotham was killed in a mining accident in 1928.

ttyymmnn > user314 05/15/2020 at 12:38

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I think they’re right, and RamblinRover also posted the same answer in this thread, with some other photos. Definitely fits my supposition that it was an obscure builder (I’ve certainly never heard of Alexander , which really doesn’t mean anything) , and the plane apparently came with a number of different engines.

ttyymmnn > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 05/15/2020 at 12:41

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Yup. It’s a fantastic site. 

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > ttyymmnn 05/15/2020 at 13:00

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This is back when you probably did want a flotation device when flying out of SFO. 

user314 > ttyymmnn 05/15/2020 at 13:09

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Me either, but the Wiki knows all.

Alexander was, for a time, the largest aircraft manufacturer in the world. Their ‘ factory’ in Englewood was destroyed in 1928 by a fire in the shed where they doped their wings.

All of the windows were high and barred, the walls and floors were soaked in the flammable chemical, and the only exits from the building were in the doping room and opened inwards. The doping shed was engulfed in fire and explosions, the exits became crowded with fleeting workers, and eleven workers were killed. 

ttyymmnn > user314 05/15/2020 at 13:16

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And people businesses complain about OSHA.

user314 > ttyymmnn 05/15/2020 at 13:33

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I mean, I can understand that there are arguments to be made that OSHA regs could be dialed back, but yeah, these laws were made for a reason.