"Poor_Sh" (ar4x)
05/07/2020 at 11:00 • Filed to: None
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"Poor_Sh" (ar4x)
05/07/2020 at 11:00 • Filed to: None | 0
| 20 |
Hey guys, I’ve been meaning to ask this for a while and I’d really like a few answers so hopefully this is a good time. Last year was my first time at the track and in all my extensive preparation I was advised to get a track alignment on the Cayman to increase cornering traction and minimize wear on my tires. The values for a stock Cayman S were well documented so I went with those. On the one hand, this may have been stupid to never experience a track event with my stock alignment as you certainly learn a lot from that, but on the other hand my tires fared amazingly well over the 6 track days.
Now, here’s my question. Should I try an event without the track alignment?
The benefits I think would be to know my car better going into the event because I’ve obviously spent more time on the street with the standard alignment. This would allow me to know when I’m at the limit better as that’s something I struggled with. I didn’t realize often when I felt like I was losing traction that I wasn’t going fast enough in the turns to make the camber work for me and in fact adding throttle made the car turn faster. Even when I did the right thing, I’m not used to the feeling of that grip vs the stock alignment grip around say an on-ramp.
I’m planning to get 4 new tires for track events this year but my current tires have at least another event on them so I’m not that worried about wrecking them. I also have the Miata now so I don’t just lose my only ride if my tires are bare.
On the other hand, I’ve done all my track days with that alignment so why should I change that when I’m still very much a novice? Shouldn’t I keep things similar until I actually need to change to get better ?
This seems about right.
Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
> Poor_Sh
05/07/2020 at 11:06 |
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I don’t see any reason to generate habits based on an inferior alignment and wear out your tires faster. Get more seat time, feel the car out. I’m not sure how forgiving a mid-engined car like the Cayman is if you overdrive it but I’d have someone more experienced drive it a couple laps and then ride along to give pointers, if possible.
gettingoldercarguy
> Poor_Sh
05/07/2020 at 11:10 |
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See if Mike Kojima from Moto iq can provide a consultation for alignment on your car. He works magic.
Future next gen S2000 owner
> Poor_Sh
05/07/2020 at 11:25 |
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I’d keep the track alignment. In reality, you should never be going fast enough on an on-ramp to lose traction. That being said, the limit is the limit. Being on/near it will help in all situations. You’ll recognize the limit regardless of the alignment. That will help you in your on-ramp/back road shenanigans.
Gone
> Poor_Sh
05/07/2020 at 11:28 |
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IMO a properly set up car will help you get a better feel for it
. Depending on changes, it also won’t eat tires as bad as a factory alignment.
If this were about running stickies vs street tires (good 200 or less wear) I’d tell you to stay on streets until you can push the tires hard . Having a properly set up car will only help you learn the car better.
Track alignment all the time!
-4.5* camber, +9* caster, -1/32 toe makes for a fun 4th gen lol
NYankee1927
> Poor_Sh
05/07/2020 at 11:39 |
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Keep the track alignment, it is cheaper on tires. Street limits are so much lower because a number of factors. You’ll adjust to the better limits in a single session on the track.
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Poor_Sh
> Gone
05/07/2020 at 12:10 |
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Awesome thanks for the advice!
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Poor_Sh
> Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
05/07/2020 at 12:14 |
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Th anks! Supposedly with nannies on and on a typical track it's virtually impossible to upset a Cayman without being really stupid. And I don't see myself turning off anything for years, but I did get to the limits of my current tires a few times last year where it wasn't because of a mistake but just faster driving. That's why I want new tires, and I don't plan to go to R compounds anytime soon especially since it's not allowed until the next run group.
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Poor_Sh
> Future next gen S2000 owner
05/07/2020 at 12:17 |
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Haha I didn't mean I was drifting, but with my standard alignment at normal speeds around an off-ramp the car feels like it's grounded to the ground. At that same speed with a track alignment it's floaty which is clearly because there's not enough force to cancel the camber. It's not really a problem since I don't need to go that fast on the street, but it means I don't get the benefit of knowing my limits as easily since I'm so rarely able to approach them.
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Poor_Sh
> NYankee1927
05/07/2020 at 12:18 |
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Yeah sounds good. I definitely have a long way to go before I worry about certain minutia. But since I research so often I can't help it.
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Poor_Sh
> gettingoldercarguy
05/07/2020 at 12:18 |
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Ok I'll take a look thanks!
Discerning
> Poor_Sh
05/07/2020 at 13:47 |
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I would stick with the track alignment. You won’t enjoy the response of the stock alignment most likely after experiencing the track setup.
What is your current alignment? Are you already at max camber at the front? Same for the rear? I assume you have zero toe front and rear? Maybe a little toe in for the rear?
How is the car handling elevation changes and hard braking?
Iirc, the stock setup has minimal camber settings (close to zero). So you’ll have a bit more un dersteer and the car might feel less responsive. Also, you have struts front and rear, so too little camber might be an issue there with hard braking and elevation changes.
I’ d stick with track and maybe see if you can get any more camber or play with rear toe settings.
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Discerning
> Gone
05/07/2020 at 13:49 |
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That's a lot of camber on a 4th gen. What is your setup in the front?
WRXforScience
> Poor_Sh
05/07/2020 at 13:56 |
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There are two main concerns with a track alignment: 1) adding negative camber to better accomm odate cornering forces and reduce tire shoulder wear a nd 2) adding some toe out to increase turn in or for faster cars on faster tracks adding some rear toe in to help with high speed stability.
A track alignment shouldn’t be too far from the recommended settings that it’ll cause undue tire wear (toe eats tires, so if you go ham there you’ll notice), so there’s not too much of an issue running your track setup all the time.
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Poor_Sh
> Discerning
05/07/2020 at 14:19 |
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Yeah I went with max camber front and rear which wasn’t much due to stock setup. Then just a smidge of toe in the rear. It seemed fine last year but I doubt I was really fast enough consistently to get a great feel for the grip and limits, braking was great and the only issue I had with elevation changes is I can’t get up the hill in turn 5 of Palmer for shit lol
Thanks!
His Stigness
> Poor_Sh
05/07/2020 at 14:20 |
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So clearly everyone is in agreement that you should keep the track alignment, which I agree with, but for another reason: it’s safer.
When WrongWheelDrive and I went to our first track day (and he has subsequently gone on way more, the bastard), we were laughing at how many people were going off due to poor driving, but I think we all know it also comes down to how the car is prepared. WWD and I both set up our cars for the track as best we could. So putting the “street” alignment on your car could lead to loss of control and be very unsafe. Street alignment, even in a Porsche, is a balance between safety and performance, with the needle obviously going towards safety. Having a dedicated track alignment is much safer as it’s purpose built spec.
Now, having said that, do you have the specs for the street and track? It may be so minute that you’re not going to notice a big enough difference for it to provide any real feedback on the road. In other words, we’re driving so differently on the track vs the street you wouldn’t gain anything from driving with a street alignment on the track.
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Poor_Sh
> WRXforScience
05/07/2020 at 14:22 |
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I did run my track alignment all last summer especially without aftermarket camber plates it's not bad at all. It just doesn't feel as fun on the street lol and I was worried that I wouldn't be able to feel my limits as easily or that the limit would be a hard cutoff rather than a feeling I could react to on the track. Probably just over analyzing though as I did fine.
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Discerning
> Poor_Sh
05/07/2020 at 14:35 |
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If anything, I would see how much you have to spend to get more camber without breaking the bank! ;)
My only complaint about the P-cars is how quickly you can spend a small fortune to get a lot of camber with really good control.
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Poor_Sh
> His Stigness
05/07/2020 at 14:45 |
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Yes I agree to your points and thanks for the anecdote!
Standard:
front toe total +2' +/- 5'
rear toe per wheel +8' +/- 5'
front camber -20' +/- 15'
rear camber -1° 20' +/- 15'
My track alignment:
Front toe 0'
Rear toe 16' total
Front camber -1.1°
Rear camber -1.6°
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Poor_Sh
> Discerning
05/07/2020 at 15:00 |
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Supposedly the move is to upgrade to GT3 lower control arms for like $1k. Maybe eventually...
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Gone
> Discerning
05/07/2020 at 15:21 |
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That car was gone long ago, but real numbers:
L/R
-4.7*/-4.9* camber
8.8*/9.0* caster
1/16 toe total
Unbalanced Engineering Bilsteins w/rod ends 1000/250lb Hypercos
Strano 35mm hollow front bar
Fays2 Watts
LG Torque Arm
Hellwig hollow 21/22/23 adjustable rear bar
Stock arms actually, though adjustable lowers would have been nice. Spent a lot of time hashing out that alignment on the rack. Very low (17.5" cg, RCf 0.5", RCr 9"). Rear was still too high for my liking - needed to go down another 1-1.5", needed custom shocks as the UE shafts were too long (or bodies? been too
long) and never got to it.
Stock Monster Truck:
After
