More Geriatric Victims of COVID-19

"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn) 05/01/2020 at 21:11 • Filed to: wingspan, planlelopnik

4

39

Delta Air Lines !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! that they will accelerate the retirement of their MD-88 and MD-90 airliners after the coronavirus decimated the airline industry, and Lufthansa !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! that the Airbus A340, A380, and Boeing 747 won’t be returning either. Now, adding to the list, American Airlines has !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! that they will be putting the A330, Boeing 757-2o0, 767-300ER, Embraer E190, and Bombardier CRJ200 out to pasture. So it looks like once commercial aviation limps back into business (hopefully) in the coming months, the skies will be a much less interesting place.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

ranwhenparked > ttyymmnn 05/01/2020 at 21:18

0

U nless things that people like to do in the summer reopen, there won’t be any rebound.

A lot of big companies have cancelled even necessary business travel through the end of the year, and with amusement parks, restaurants, bars, nightclubs, spas, theaters, many beaches, many parks, museums and the like closed, and all concerts, sporting events, and festivals cancelled, there’s no reason to do any leisure travel. United Airlines has stated current travel demand to be effectively zero, and will lay off the majority of their workforce in September if it doesn’t recover somewhat over the summer. 

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > ttyymmnn 05/01/2020 at 21:22

2

Why the hell are the E190s getting the ax? I would think those would be exactly the airplanes you want to keep... Cheap to fly, cheap to maintain... Though I suppose if you have a fleet with service optimized for other planes the 190 might get pushed out... Still, its a newer airframe, and an efficient, easy to utilize jet... Maybe I don't understand fleet management, but it seems strange to me...

Chariotoflove > ttyymmnn 05/01/2020 at 21:26

0

Does retired mean mothballed or actually sold/scrapped? I think this is a generally good thing, as they are taking the opportunity to simplify and upgrade their types. But if demand increases fast enough, they won’t have enough aircraft to fly everyone, right? Even if they had the money to order new planes, which I don’t think they do without huge loans, orders take too long to fill. They would be forced to bring back retires planes.

Also, I note that their “simplified” family of narrow bodies includes the 737 variants.  That is consistent with the discussion earlier this week that Boeing will now be keeping the 737 around much longer than originally envisioned.  I’m not sure that’s a good thing though.

wafflesnfalafel > ttyymmnn 05/01/2020 at 21:32

3

I wouldn’t mind picking up a 757 on the cheap....

boredalways > ttyymmnn 05/01/2020 at 21:36

0

I wonder if this means a cutback in direct routes and more layovers?  And will the remaining routes mean more seats and even less legroom in flight?

John Norris (AngryDrifter) > ttyymmnn 05/01/2020 at 21:42

1

I always liked the 757 and the 767. Not sure why the 737's grew into replacing the 757's. The big 737's aren’t any smaller than a 757. But the 757's had the benefit of a fresher design that got them away from a short main landing gear like the 737 . If Boeing would have pushed to improve the 757 instead of invest ing further i n the 737 they wouldn’t have had to go through all the 737 MAX trouble. They wouldn’t have needed MCAS on an improved 757 .

I am sure there were some constraints with the 757 that I’m not familiar with. But of course that’s not going to keep me from Monday morning quarter backing.

facw > ttyymmnn 05/01/2020 at 21:45

6

For clarity, Lufthansa is only retiring their 747-400s. They have a big fleet of 747-8s which will be hanging around.

Chariotoflove > boredalways 05/01/2020 at 21:47

1

See, I would think that the smaller regional jets would be just the ticket to allow direct flights for business on smaller routes.

WilliamsSW > ttyymmnn 05/01/2020 at 21:47

1

So there will be nothing but A320s and B737s in the air.

Oh and 777s and A350s for international travel, I guess.

Good aircraft but boring. 

facw > JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t 05/01/2020 at 21:48

1

Seems a bit weird. Note that some of these you fly are owned/operated by smaller airlines, so those are unlikely to be part of this. These are presumably the ones used to operate the “shuttle” flights between DC, NYC, and Boston.

facw > John Norris (AngryDrifter) 05/01/2020 at 21:54

0

737 is cheaper and more efficient to operate than the 757, and limiting the number of types is better in terms of logistics and pilot training for the airlines. The one thing that the 757 could do that the 737 can’t is fly transatlantic (and other longer range) routes, and Boeing has been left at a disadvantage there, as airlines don’t want to buy a 787 for those sort of routes.

I’m not sure why you think that they wouldn’t have needed MCAS on an upgraded 757? They would have wanted to do the same sort of thing with the engines which might well have led to the same decisions. Further they certainly wouldn’t have wanted pilots to have to retrain for the new 757, so they would have needed similar accommodations , and it’s quite possible they would have wanted a common cockpit and behavior with the 737 MAX to allow pilots to easily move between them (I don’t know if this would be possible, but it seems Boeing had good pull with regulators to do whatever they wanted) .

Gone > facw 05/01/2020 at 21:54

0

GOOD!

Gone > ttyymmnn 05/01/2020 at 21:58

0

If coronavirus makes me miss getting a flight on a 747 I’m going to be so mad.. There’s not many carriers or planes left. Ugh. The 380 is a sweet plane, though huge. Took a Quantus 380 from Melbourne to Houston and was an awesome flight. Thought we were going to end up in the ocean because the take off roll is slowwwwwwwww. Smooth as butter in the air though. Much better than the 757, 767, 777, and 787s I’ve flown on.

Hudson Hawkish > JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t 05/01/2020 at 22:19

1

It's the union fleet agreements that limited how many regionals they could fly relative to the mainline aircraft 

Hudson Hawkish > facw 05/01/2020 at 22:21

2

It's a union thing.  Limit on number of regional jets they can deploy relative to mainline "company " jets

Hudson Hawkish > boredalways 05/01/2020 at 22:21

0

Yep

Yup 

Hudson Hawkish > Chariotoflove 05/01/2020 at 22:21

0

Union limits... 

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > John Norris (AngryDrifter) 05/01/2020 at 22:26

0

Repacing the 757 would have been the smarter move. Couple problem are A) has been out of production, and B) redoing the wings engines and all the other desired changes, would have resulting in practically a brand new plane.

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > facw 05/01/2020 at 23:03

1

The 757 p robably wouldn’t have needed anything like MCAS since the long   landing gear could accommodate large diameter high bypass engines.

The 737 needed things like squished nacelles on the Next Gen and MCAS on the Max because it was designed around small diameter turbo jet engines. It was never designed to fit the large diameter high bypass engines it ended up with  

The sho rt gear allowed for easy boarding and servicing at fields that didn’t have jetways . The 737 was designed at the start of the j et age before most of the airport infrastructure we take for granted existed.

f86sabre > ttyymmnn 05/01/2020 at 23:10

1

It would be a good time to start a medium haul cargo fleet.

Also a typo: Air Lines. We are weird. 

ttyymmnn > f86sabre 05/01/2020 at 23:39

2

Also a typo: Air Lines. We are weird.

Sorry. I knew that. I wrote this in about five minutes and then ignored it. We’re trying to watch all the Star Wars movies before Ep. IX comes on D+ on Monday. But this post did start  a vigorous conversation, which is great.

pip bip - choose Corrour > ttyymmnn 05/02/2020 at 00:04

0

bloody hell, will they have anything left to fly?

ttyymmnn > pip bip - choose Corrour 05/02/2020 at 00:12

1

737s and A321s. 

pip bip - choose Corrour > ttyymmnn 05/02/2020 at 00:15

3

good time to simplify the fleet i guess.

Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. > facw 05/02/2020 at 02:55

0

MCAS wouldn’t be necessary on an updated 757 because they would not be changing the position of the engine, only the output. Because of the short landing gear on the 737   Boeing needed to move the LEAP-1 engine further forward than even the NG 737s to accommodate the larger fan , and this is what caused the handling abnormalities that MCAS was trying to overcome.

Other aircraft have had engine upgrades over the years, but because the position of the engine didn’t change there didn’t need to be Band - aids applied to make the new aircraft fly like the old ones. I’ll leave out the 777 since the FBW system could be reprogrammed to overcome these kinds of problems, but look at the 747 and 767. Those two had some pretty significant engine upgrades over the decades and didn’t need those half-assed patches to make them fly normally. The 747, for example, started with 43,500 lbs of thrust per engine in the -100,  with the final variants of the -400 having 63,300 lbs of thrust. Same basic wing, but nearly 80,000 lbs more thrust.

Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. > WilliamsSW 05/02/2020 at 02:58

1

Don’t forget the 787s. Those aren’t going anywhere.

Your boy, BJR > ttyymmnn 05/02/2020 at 05:42

1

:( <- my face every time I hear someone is retiring 747s. I have Flying anxiety and the only plane I’ve ever been on that I’ve been able to sleep/be calm on is the 747. Flown on ‘em 4 times, old 4 motor ones from Virgin Atlantic. Such a great looking and comfortable plane. A true icon of an era.

Eury - AFRICA TWIN!!!!!!! > JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t 05/02/2020 at 06:03

2

E190s and E175s are not the same thing. The E190 is not a regional plane, it is operated by AA directly and larger (100 seats) than the E175 (76 seats) that people commonly see.

It is not as posted below a union thing. The union limits on regional flying (called scope) limit the regional carriers to 76 seats and limit the number of those planes the regionals can fly. The E190 is too large for a regional carrier, and in the US is only flown by AA and JetBlue.

AA has very few E190s, they were bought by USAir before the merger and the program stopped when AA bought them. As a result there were only 20 of them in the whole fleet which is tiny. They had already announced that the E190s were going away a couple of years ago. That will leave only JetBlue flying them in the US with a fleet of 80 E190s.

As for cost and servicing, the E190 isn’t as cheap as you’d think. It’s pretty expensive with sub average reliability. Servicing costs are very close to an A319 or A320, and while There are fuel savings, the CASM (cost per air seat mile) ends up being very close to a 319 or 320.

Source: I fly the E190.

WilliamsSW > Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. 05/02/2020 at 08:28

1

Oh yeah- forgot those.  Been on a couple of them and they're really nice,  too.

WilliamsSW > Eury - AFRICA TWIN!!!!!!! 05/02/2020 at 08:32

1

 Thanks for posting. I hope that this isn't directly affecting your job, or that you can get a seat on another aircraft quickly.  Tough times to be in aviation.

f86sabre > ttyymmnn 05/02/2020 at 08:43

1

That is a worthy cause!  I am trying to catch up  with Cline Wars. I hear the last four episodes are very good. 

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > Eury - AFRICA TWIN!!!!!!! 05/02/2020 at 09:34

1

Yeah, i guess if you’ve only got 20 in your (very large) fleet it makes sense to ditch them, or swap them out for something with more service commonality... Especially if they aren’ t your most reliable plane. (and as you say adding in service costs basically negates fuel savings) 

shop-teacher > ttyymmnn 05/02/2020 at 10:42

1

That is too bad. I’m not really even a plane guy, but seeing those cargo 747's the other day really made me smile.

Eury - AFRICA TWIN!!!!!!! > WilliamsSW 05/02/2020 at 10:47

1

I don’t like to say who my employer is online, but my company is keeping the E190 flying, so that certainly narrows it down, lol. As of now I’m fairly secure at my seniority, but if things don’t pick up dramatically that won’t Be true for more than the next 5-10 months. I’m fortunate that my carrier is one of the best positioned financially and route wise to weather this storm and I’ve been there long enough to have some buffer if furloughs do happen.

Hopefully it works out. I love what I do. 

ttyymmnn > f86sabre 05/02/2020 at 11:26

0

My son has been watching it. I’ve heard that it fills in many details of the prequels that are missing or hard to follow. 

ttyymmnn > shop-teacher 05/02/2020 at 11:27

2

Cargo 74s will be around for a while. And Lufthansa is only retiring their 747-400s the long-topped 800s are sticking around. 

WilliamsSW > Eury - AFRICA TWIN!!!!!!! 05/02/2020 at 11:32

1

Good - sorry not trying to dox you of course, but let’s hope this shitshow goes away for everyone’s sake, and you keep flying.

Personally, I think if you can make it through the summer you’ll be fine.

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > Your boy, BJR 05/08/2020 at 15:03

0

Are there any 747s that aren’t four engined?

Your boy, BJR > Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom 05/08/2020 at 16:53

0