"LJ909" (lj909)
04/27/2020 at 16:12 • Filed to: Cadillac, Cadillac Sales
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"LJ909" (lj909)
04/27/2020 at 16:12 • Filed to: Cadillac, Cadillac Sales | 0
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CT4-V
( Edit: Kinja, being stupid as usual, got rid of the pics I had on here for whatever reason ) I was reading !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! of the new Cadillac CT4-V, which is really more of a V Sport model. In the comments I mentioned that no ones going to buy this thing, just as no one bought the CTS and ATS before it. Someone else mentioned “ Used ATS-V’s are $30-40K right now, why anyone would pay “more” for a new one of these is a bit of madness?” And that’s the general thinking with Cadillac that we’ve gone over before. Why pay comparable German prices for them new when you can wait a few years and pick one up for a song used? And sadly, the ignoring of these vehicles shows by a simple search of inventory.
You see these !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ? Both are at the same dealership in Poplar Bluff, MO. Both are brand “new” 2018 CTS. And both have been sitting on the lot for over a thousand days. They are the oldest listings I found of the CTS. And its not just the CTS.
This XTS at a dealer here in SoCal has been on the lot for 915 days. From my findings, most models that are sitting are CTS, XTS, CT6 and the XT5 with averages being over 500 days. The extreme end is over 800. Sadly a lot of CTS-V models are sitting with their averages being over a year. This doesn’t bode well for the new models, who have already been met with a lukewarm reception. Its kind of sad thought that buyers don’t seem to agree with the pricing on them new, and are willing to wait to pick them up used I don’t get why this isn’t resonating with Cadillac, who seems to think that pricing on par with the competition is the way to succeed, with brands like Genesis showing its not.
fintail
> LJ909
04/27/2020 at 16:54 |
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I suspect this is dippy good old boy de Nysschen’s business acumen at work again. He leaves chaos in his wake.
If your product is 90% as good as the competition, but you price it at 90% of the competition, you don’t offer a compelling reason for people to change - especially for consumers with specific demands regarding build/material quality and brand cachet.
camarov6rs
> LJ909
04/27/2020 at 16:54 |
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Devils advocate: is Genesis doing any better? I know it’s hard to compare since they only have 3 sedans.
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LJ909
> camarov6rs
04/27/2020 at 16:59 |
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I’d say they are doing ok considering they have only been around, what 4 years? They doubled their sales for 2019 to 21,233 from 10,311 the year before. Cadillac’ s sales for ‘19 only increased 1.3 percent and were mostly flat. Also keep in mind Cadillac’s sales are bolster by the Escalade, XT4 and XT5. Genesis should do better once the GV80 and GV70 go on sale.
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LJ909
> fintail
04/27/2020 at 17:03 |
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You may b on to something considering how “well” Infiniti is doing.
But you are right. There’ s no compelling reason for them. And I hate to sound like a sort of fan boy( of which I am) but Genesis is doing it right. Offering the same for way less. f you compared the base models of the CT4 and the G70 value for the money wise, the choice would be obvious.
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fintail
> LJ909
04/27/2020 at 17:08 |
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Without awkward CUVs and fleet sales, I’d wager Infiniti wouldn’t exist at all today. And even at that, I wouldn’t bet on a long future. Nissan let them become stale. Honda is doing a far better job with Acura, which receives little loud press, but at least keeps a few things fresh, and seems to have a fanbase.
Genesis is offering 90% or more of the content for 70% of the price. It’s enough to be compelling, especially for those without huge brand loyalty. It’s kind of like what Lexus and Infiniti did 30 years ago.
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LJ909
> fintail
04/27/2020 at 17:22 |
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Right. I dont see Infiniti being around by the end of the decade. I’d be surprised if they were though. Honda seems to have gotten the memo with Acura who seems to be at least trying with stuff like the A Spec TLX and RDX, also hat sexy next gen TLX Concept.
Genesis is on the up and up. And like I always point out, you’d have to be a fool to not consider them. They are doing everything right and should be on top in a few more years.
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fintail
> LJ909
04/27/2020 at 17:29 |
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I think Acura is capitalizing on Infiniti’s slumber. They know those customers are ripe for the picking, and will likely eventually go to Genesis or the Germans, hell, I suspect even Lincoln is doing better. The transition from Infiniti to Acura is probably easy, still gives the buyer the Japanese brand association/security they want.
Genesis is a lot of value, but I can’t get over the grilles, just a little too loud for me personally, but I prefer more traditional styles, so it is subjective. Lexus has shown that overstyling can sell (and Genesis doesn’t have a Predator face too, which helps).
ranwhenparked
> fintail
04/27/2020 at 17:31 |
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The Mk1 CTS made some legitimate inroads by offering an almost 5-Series sized car for a 3-Series price. Even with a cheap interior and mediocre build quality, it was an obvious bargain. GM learned the wrong lesson and steadily increased the price on following generations, and grew it into a full-on 5-Series competitor, well before buyers were mentally ready to accept such transition.
Rover got into the same trouble in the ‘90s - the Mk1 400 and Mk1 and Mk2 200 were good sellers, but mainly because they were good value, offering a lot of car for a reasonable price. BMW drew the wrong conclusions, assumed it meant that the brand had been fully rehabilitated and could now justify higher prices, and jacked up the MSRP on the new 400 and 200 in the mid ‘ 90s, which failed badly on the market as a result .
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camarov6rs
> LJ909
04/27/2020 at 17:44 |
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Cadillac sedans did basically the same volume with 4 models that were essentially dead on the vine or had announced replacements. Seems that they are roughly neck and neck given different approaches, even though one is rising quickly and the other is losing sales/stagnating.
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fintail
> ranwhenparked
04/27/2020 at 17:48 |
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I think Caddy increased its price as fast as Lexus did with the LS from 1990 onward, but maybe the product wasn’t there yet, and the competition kept improving as well. Benchmarking can be a problem in such cases. CTS grew to nearly 5er/E size and refined some of the coarse materials , but by that time maybe was too close to the price to get people to switch.
I suspect a lot of the hubris-rich execs behind these strategies find one focus group who validates their thoughts, and then thinks the job is done for good.
Manwich - now Keto-Friendly
> LJ909
04/27/2020 at 17:56 |
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Yeah... Nice discounts on them... but they’re still not cheap enough.
If it was me in the market for one of these, I would offer $40,000.
On one hand, these are still ‘new’, but then the second I drive off the lot, they are now “2 years old”
There is nothing wrong with the pricing. But then to keep up that game, you can’t produce more than what the market wants at that price point.
And GM being GM, they want the higher prices, but they don’t want to give up on the volume probably.
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ranwhenparked
> fintail
04/27/2020 at 18:05 |
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GM is notorious for that - conducting market research after already making up their mind, simply to confirm the decisions that they already made.
They also routinely fall into the practice of benchmarking future models against the current competition, without thinking harder about what the competition will be like when the new car actually goes on sale. Always reactive, never proactive. They let the Germans and the Japanese set the standard and control the agenda, and work within the parameters the competition sets, instead of tearing up the rulebook and having the courage to truly go their own way.
SiennaMan
> fintail
04/27/2020 at 18:09 |
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Lincoln is doing better for the same reason Cadillac hasn’t folded it in. The people at Ford realized that they had a perfectly capable large truck based SUV,
tarted that
thing up and bam, Escalade competitor.
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LJ909
> Manwich - now Keto-Friendly
04/27/2020 at 18:10 |
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Right. Even with discounts some aren’ t as cheap as they should be. And from my experience, a lot of dealers aren’ t willing to budge on the price or seem to get offended if you suggest a deal. I’ ve seen ATS models sitting on lots for as long as some of the models listed above with no price drops and original MSRP’s. But overall a lot of the Caddy dealers have the typical “This is the price and that’ s it and if you don’ t like it you can go somewhere else” attitude.
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Manwich - now Keto-Friendly
> LJ909
04/27/2020 at 18:21 |
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If they’re not willing to budge, then in 2021, we can all have a good laugh over their “new” 2018 models... and ask the dealer if they’re waiting for the warranty to expire before they budge on the price.
LOL
CRider
> LJ909
04/27/2020 at 18:47 |
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Cadillac spent money on things people can’t see and cheaped out on things people can see; they have better driving dynamics than BMW but that gets very few people in the door and even fewer people in the F&I office when the rest of the car is just OK .
On the other hand, Lincoln has (over years) spent money on what actually makes people buy cars. They spent a lot on style and making nicer interiors, and their cars have a lot of power but that’s not the main selling point- that’s what surprises them on the test drive, when they’re already 80% of the way to signing papers. This is how you make a comeback.
carcrasher88
> SiennaMan
04/27/2020 at 19:05 |
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Except...the Navigator came before the Escalade. The Navigator entered production in May of ‘97, hitting showrooms soon after.
The Escalade didn’t go into production until August of ‘98, as one half of GM’s response to the Navigator, along with it’s twin (and by twin, I mean EXACT twin), the GMC Yukon Denali.
So, it’s the Caddy that’s the copycat, not the Lincoln. The Lincoln is the OG American full-size luxury SUV.
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LJ909
> CRider
04/27/2020 at 19:46 |
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This is correct. But it also doesn’ t help that they are a part of GM, and parts bin sharing can shine through. And thats not something you want when you are spending $50k+. Not only that but the driving dynamics, while better, I think have come too late. The people that cared for those type of things left for the Germans and Japanese years ago. The only people left are old money who either buy XT5's for them and their wives knees, Escalade’ s (douchemoney) CTS-Vs because their wife wouldn’t let them have a Corvette, or long for the days of DTS, column shifters and bench seats. Most don’ t care for all the new tech, let alone chasing a 3 Series in the twisties.
BahamaTodd
> fintail
04/27/2020 at 20:28 |
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I consider the Escalade to be the first fully “de Nysschen” Cadillac. It takes 5+ years to develop a vehicle and he had just joined Cadillac in 2014. Everything that came out in the last 5 years would have already been under development. de Nysschen joins in 2014, takes a year or two or so to get situated and develop a plan, and two years later we have the Escala concept:
Now we have the Escalade:
Considering GM is making a huge investment into EVs, I think that is where we will see a major effort in all areas including interior design. IMO everything up until now are placeholders - especially considering GM was bankrupt 10 years ago and were probably being conservative with what we have seen from Cadillac in the last decade.
The Lyriq EV was supposed to be revealed a month ago. GM needs to knock it out of the park with this one. Based on reports from those that have seen it, its really nice. This is pretty much it:
Even Tesla-crazed Electrek liked it:
https://electrek.co/2020/03/04/ama-gm-bev-event-ev-hummers-huge-cadillacs-new-bolts-e-uvs
Cadillac Lyriq
This is the SUV we’ve seen images of before, and it will be the first car on GM’s BEV3 platform. The interior was gorgeous and to be honest the first Cadillac that I’ve ever seen that I’ve lusted after. We’ve seen the outside.
The Escalade is nice, but its still a worked-over Tahoe. The Lyriq will be the first true ground-up Johan de Nysschen era Cadillac.
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fintail
> BahamaTodd
04/27/2020 at 20:43 |
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I am only judging by de Nysschen’s CV. He resulted in a gongshow at Infiniti with intensified bland being the biggest product (along with a dumb naming convention) - the brand is barely alive now. T hen came to Caddy, instituted a dumb naming convention, got a little mouthy from time to time, left in chaos, and has now been hired again. And so it goes for the executive crowd. It’s not what you know.
Escala is what became the CT5 with its dumb DLO fail, right? I suppose it gets fair reviews, but mark my words, will sell no better than the CTS, and has an even more meaningless name. When concept cars end up in production benchmarking products a generation behind, something needs to change.
Lyriq is an strikingly dumb name too (randomly breaking from the standard nomenclature, hopefully a sign of things to come - Caddys should have names, even dumb ones). I wish it well, just to give Tesla and the fanatical cult something to grouse about, conspiracy theories here we come. I’d be curious as to what role he really played, again given in what he has produced in the past decade or so.
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fintail
> ranwhenparked
04/27/2020 at 20:45 |
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Real people? Not! Actors.
I recall the benchmarking happened with the rebirth of the Malibu for MY 1997, too. It benchmarked ~1994 Camcords. By 1998 Camcords had a fully new generation, and the then year old Malibu was a step behind already.
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fintail
> SiennaMan
04/27/2020 at 20:46 |
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I think Lincoln has also done a lot more, given it no doubt has a fraction of the budget. The current cloned CUV/SUV group seems to get reasonable reviews.
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fintail
> SiennaMan
04/27/2020 at 20:46 |
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I think Lincoln has also done a lot more, given it no doubt has a fraction of the budget. The current cloned CUV/SUV group seems to get reasonable reviews.
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BahamaTodd
> fintail
04/27/2020 at 21:02 |
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The CTx / XTx naming con ven tion attempted to fix the previous letter based naming convention which didn’t work. Other than going to names earlier, I see nothing wrong with the newer naming. It does what its designed to do. It identifies car or SUV, and tells you where each model sits in the brand hierarchy .
CT5 has nothing to do with Escala. CT5 is a CTS with a slashed development budget . Those resources went to EVs. The Escala previewed the Celestiq - Cadillac’s upcoming hand-built halo-car.
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fintail
> BahamaTodd
04/27/2020 at 21:08 |
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This nomenclature isn’t working either. Fixing a broken system by chnging to a very similar system, risky. Trying to be German, and I don’t think it will catch on. People hated it at Infiniti (and look at them now), I don’t know of any who aren’t brand fans who think it has value.
A number of motoring press scribes linked CT5 design to the Escala. I definitely see a few elements. I supposed a cut budget explains that C-pillar, what a woof element on an otherwise refined design. I can just hear someone yelling “there, I finished it!”
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CRider
> LJ909
04/27/2020 at 21:17 |
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Parts sharing is fine if you can’t see it. I remember Matt Farah talking about how the driver seat motor on a Ferrari 550 (iirc) was the same part # as the seat motor Ford used on the F-150 of the time; that’s the kind of thing were what you don’t know won’t hurt you. Obviously GM isn’t known for being subtle about that kind of thing, but I don’t think Cadillac’s problem is part sharing, it’s cheaping out on things like the guage cluster on the ATS that leave a bad taste in your mouth before you’ve even started the engine.
Technology isn’t what traditional Cadillac buys look for, but that’s why they need to go after it: Traditional Cadillac buys are dying. Enthusiasts have a new brand that offers top tier handling, and that’s a good thing. The problem is that that’s all Cadillac does now; the actual “luxury” part is still a little below standards. They do have a legit claim to technological superiority with their Super Cruise system that rivals Tesla’s, but that needs to be on everything they make ASAP, and people need to hear about it.
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BahamaTodd
> fintail
04/27/2020 at 21:33 |
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Infiniti’s naming has very little to do with its current situation. It has everything to do with being a part of Nissan which is struggling as a whole.
Escala did influence the styling of recent Cadillacs with the horizontal headlamps, and screens in the Escalade etc . However f rom the perspective of the vehicle as a whole, there’s still much more to come based on what we saw with the Escala. GM is really taking Cadillac back to its roots with the Celestiq.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/cadillac-celestiq-ev-flagship-first-look-review/
We did not see this one coming. No one did. Today, General Motors pulled the wraps off a new flagship sedan, the Celestiq. It will be all-electric and won’t be mistaken for anything else when it hits the streets in a few years. Surprised?
The Celestiq is a massive four-door, four-passenger full-size car with a hatch instead of a trunk in back. It will be a four-passenger lounge on wheels with acres of stretch-out room inside for both people and, well, the air between those people. A giant black glass roof extending from the top of the windshield to the rear hatch opening supercharges the sense of airiness inside. It’s quite striking. You’ll have to trust us on this one because Cadillac isn’t releasing images of the Celestiq—for now, at least.
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zrulesus
> LJ909
04/27/2020 at 21:58 |
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Do these highly schooled executives know any history of Cadillac, or understand it’s original appeal ?
No,they do not .
There was a time when people RAN to Cadillac showrooms to see the new models.....begged, pleaded, drooled , mortgaged, broke the piggy bank to get one .
Why? Beautiful, interesting, swag , presence ,prestige, and what was NEXT .
In 1915 Cadillac published a great ad: The Penalty Of Leadership; it expounded upon why the car was so appealing, and very popular, ( outsold ALL models at the turn of last century) ,survived the Great Depression, social ,and cultural change,and was the car of film stars, artists , pop icons , professionals, Presidents .
Does Cadillac executives understand this?
Do GM board members?
Here is a company that is legend, and whose foundations are so deep ,it should be easy.
No,its not ,because the people who run Cadillac do not understand the brand.
Cadillacs are not supposed to be compacts.
Does Rolls Royce or Bentley make a small car?
Cadillacs have names not numbers, and if they do ,have the former attached .
Cadillacs offer convertibles, and commercial chassis, for limos .
Cadillac needs three cars ....Fleetwood, Deville, Eldorado....
They need a sports car , and a convertible or two .
They need big seats, high tops , and wide doors .
They need vertical tail lights which dramatically extend down the fenders, ala a ‘ fin ‘, egg crate grilles long noses, and short decks.
When people desire a CADILLAC they dream big ,not small : Cruising, not cornering a slolum .
If they make compact ,it needs class, sharp , not BM W light .
Remember when Olds ,which was hugely successful into the 80s ,and even was in NASCAR, began stepping on themselves, with ‘ This is not your fathers Oldsmobile?’
Well, I wish it w ere ?
So out went 98 ,88 ,Cutlass ,Starfire , for Alero .
Then they died.
Every single person at Cadillac should be fired.
They are a disgrace, and traitor to a legend.
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fintail
> BahamaTodd
04/27/2020 at 22:10 |
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He didn’t help anything though, not enough to justify his words and his salary. Moved his Infiniti naming to Caddy, relocated HQ in a move that was mocked by all, and well, that might be it.
Even Caddy admits the CT5 is “inspired by” the Escala:
Still can’t get over that C-pillar detail.
Celestiq might be a good Model S competitor, too. I think it looks much better.
Mind you, I am not knocking Caddy, I am knocking De Nysschen. To me he represents all of the stereotypical problems of the old guard.
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BahamaTodd
> fintail
04/27/2020 at 23:02 |
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Only so much you can do when something is already in motion before you get there. That includes the move to NY which was decided before de Nysschen got to Cadillac.
Cadillac decided to move to New York as part of a brand reinvention that was designed to separate the luxury car from GM’s other, more-mainstream vehicles, including Chevrolet and Buick.
The decision was made just before the company tapped auto industry veteran Johan de Nysschen to revitalize GM’s luxury brand.
New vehicle development timelines are 5+ years. Longer for an all-new platform and that is going to be especially true for GM’s new EV platform. We can’t fully judge what de Nysschen has or hasn’t done for Cadillac until about now. The upcoming vehicles introduced will have been fully developed from the beginning while under de Nysschen. Who knows? Maybe it was de Nysschen’s decision to go back to model names.
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fintail
> BahamaTodd
04/27/2020 at 23:18 |
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There’s a lot the head honcho can do. He was there for several years, and such moves generally don’t take that long, although in an org with 39 layers of management like GM, I guess it might.
Looks like he was supportive of the move either way.
I can look at what de Nysschen actually accomplished in the past decade or so. Other than goofy naming conventions (which maybe Caddy will abandon) , I’m not seeing a lot with his fingerprints that I would want to brag about. Not sure why anyone would take issue about criticism either.
“don’t mess with me” - of course not, low self-awareness good old boys don’t answer to much.
PS9
> CRider
04/28/2020 at 15:36 |
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Moral of the story: Don’t cheap out on anything, because your rivals won’t. They’re already at the top, so every compromise you allow yourself only looks like an exploitable weakness to them.