Toyota to replace V8s with TTV6 - question for your brains

"7:07" (fanbrain001) 04/23/2020 at 12:07 • Filed to: None

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From the displacement viewpoint, I can understand that a 3.5L engine can be more efficient than a 5.7L V8, but why switch to V6 at all? Why develop a smaller displacement turbocharged V8? I’d rather have a 3.5L twin turbo V8 over V6 any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

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MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > 7:07 04/23/2020 at 12:10

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A 3.5L V8 is more expensive to build than a 3.5L V6.

You have 2 more pistons, 2 more connecting rods, 2 more sets of rings, etc

Plus even though the displacement is the same, the V8 would most likely be a larger engine physically so packaging issues also come into play

Snuze: Needs another Swede > 7:07 04/23/2020 at 12:13

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Packaging. A V8 physically takes up more space than a V6. The t urbos and associated plumb ing add volume and mass. Consider that in the newest iteration of Ford GT, the 3.5L EcoBoost V6, when fully dressed with turbos and plumbing, is only an inch or two  smaller in each dimension, and right about the same weight, as one of Ford’s modular V8 engines. A small V8 with turbos would actually end up being bigger and heavier than a larger non-turbo V8.

For Sweden > 7:07 04/23/2020 at 12:18

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How is Kyle Busc h going to win another title with a V6?

Gerry197 > 7:07 04/23/2020 at 12:19

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I think it’s probably b ecause the 2 cylinders suck down much more fuel than displacement difference.

I mean if you look at a LS motor in 4.8 - 7.0L, they are essentially the same or similar small block, just different bore , stroke and crankshaft. Generally the larger the displacement, the more power and fuel it sucks down.

However, lobbing off 2 cylinders and using turbos to make more power has been shown to more than compensate for the power difference while being more beneficial on saving fuel when not on boost.

Factor in costs and emissions, especially for tighter Euro 6 standards and it makes even more sense for them to do this. 

RallyWrench > 7:07 04/23/2020 at 12:20

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Packaging and existing architecture . They already have a really nice DI 3.5 that could use a couple of whirlybois , and that’s t wo less cylinders to stuff in the nose of whatever passenger protection swaddle they choose. Also, t he people that buy V8 Toyotas new (Lexus) don’t care. 

jimz > 7:07 04/23/2020 at 12:22

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fewer cylinders for a given displacement is more thermodynamically efficient.  all else equal (which it isn’t, but let’s pretend) a 3.5 liter V6 will be more efficient than a 3.5 liter V8.  the V6 will have a lower cylinder surface area-to-volume ratio, thus slower rate of heat loss to the cooling system. 

HammerheadFistpunch > 7:07 04/23/2020 at 12:25

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I think they are right about the TTv6, but I don’t know if they have enough information to speculate on the death of the V8.  Im a little bummed to hear than the rumored TTv6 is GR based.  Is Toyota going to be the Nissan and only build one V6 for all of time?  Granted the GR is a good motor.

7:07 > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 04/23/2020 at 12:26

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A higher parts count makes sense.  I don’t know enough about engine building to have considered the packing issues and size difference between the two architectures.  I figured a V8 with the same displacement as a V6 would be close to the same size.  Guess I have some learning to do!

7:07 > Gerry197 04/23/2020 at 12:31

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Maybe I’m being irrational, but when I cross shop the Expedition Max with the Yukon XL, I can’t bring myself to buy the Expedition because of the V6 sound, even if it has more HP/TQ  and a better power curve.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > For Sweden 04/23/2020 at 12:32

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He’ll just miss half of the season and win it.

7:07 > RallyWrench 04/23/2020 at 12:33

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But the LS500 already has a 3.5L TT V6.  Now I’m more confused as to why Toyota would develop a new engine rather than use the one you mentioned, or the one they are already using??  I think I need to go do some reading...

7:07 > For Sweden 04/23/2020 at 12:34

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Nitrous and a protein shake

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > 7:07 04/23/2020 at 12:34

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Because you have to pay to manufacture the 2 extra pistons, rods, pins, clips, bolts, and bearings. 

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > 7:07 04/23/2020 at 12:39

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How about a TT V4?

7:07 > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 04/23/2020 at 12:41

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If it sounds anything like the Honda VFR I would be on board.  I love the sound of a V4.  Good thinking!

TheRealBicycleBuck > 7:07 04/23/2020 at 12:47

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Most bores are between 3.5" and 4" in diameter, whether it’s a 2.0L straight 4 or a 6.0L V-12 . In order to package a V-8 into the space of a V-6, the bore size would have to be considerably smaller. That would mean smaller pistons, rings, rods, etc. In other words, they would lose a lot of parts compatibility, making the new engine very expensive.

By using similar or even the exact same parts, they save in tooling costs. Some V-6 engines are essentially an existing V-8 block with two cylinders missing. They use the same pistons, lifters, bearings, etc. in order to make the parts interchangeable. 

Wuelling > 7:07 04/23/2020 at 13:00

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Will be interesting to see how that works in the new LC. I'm sure it will be pretty realible but turbos scare me 300k+ miles 

Gerry197 > 7:07 04/23/2020 at 13:34

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I’m in the same boat. I actually bought a 2015 F150 2.7L Ecoboost. Great truck, zero issues in the 4 years I owned it. Traded it in on a new RAM 1500 Rebel Hemi.

Reason primarily is I get bored every few years and want something new, the current F150 is old and I really like the new RAM.

But, I have to say, that Hemi sounds amazing, especially with an aftermarket muffler. It’s definitely slower than my Ecoboost while getting a lot less mpg, but the sound gives it a sense of occasion when I drive it.

Just turning it on puts a smile on my face, which is one thing the Ecoboost couldn’t do.  

wafflesnfalafel > Gerry197 04/23/2020 at 13:40

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agree - I really think mfgs could do a better job at making the new turbo 6s sound better/more pleasing. The Ford 3.5 ecobooster is a monster motor, but it doesn’t sound all that good to me personally. Need to hire a Fiat/Alfa exhaust engineer or something.

HammerheadFistpunch > 7:07 04/23/2020 at 13:51

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That’s the basic idea, but the truck version will be tuned differently, have lower redlines and may be made of different materials for strength. Similar to the 1uz in the ls and the 2uz in the trucks

Gerry197 > wafflesnfalafel 04/23/2020 at 13:55

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There are good sounding V6 motors, but not the Ecoboost. E ven the Raptor needs to pipe in fake noise to make it more pleasing.

Great motors, loved it  in every single way but the sound.  

Shift24 > 7:07 04/23/2020 at 14:00

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Honda proved in the 2000s you don’t need a v8 to sell cars/S UVs . And in 2010s Ford showed you don’t need v8s to sell trucks.

We can ag ree that ecoboosts are one of the worst sounding engines out there. Right next to VQs. But there is hope at least for the J-series to not sound terrible in sedan format.

But this is all about reducing parts. Why have 2 or more pistons, rings, spark plugs, valves, and so on. Its Japanese Kaizen or lean manufacturering. If Toyota wasn’t about to build their own I-6, why would they make another motor? I am assuming the 3.5l v6 they are already making is the the Turbo v6

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > Gerry197 04/23/2020 at 14:19

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Ha, my Dodge is a 1952 with a flathead 6, I think I might have 60hp, it sounds good, I have all straight engines, a 4, a 5 and two 6s.

VincentMalamute-Kim > 7:07 04/23/2020 at 14:51

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I have Ford’s 3.5L TTV6. I really like it. More power, more torque than their V8's. Better mpg i f you can stay off boost and if you’re not towing.

7:07 > TheRealBicycleBuck 04/23/2020 at 15:35

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That makes sense. Others have pointed out what Mercedes and potentially Mazda (and others) are doing with the I4 and I6 engines. Add a couple cylinders to the I4 to make the I6 with all other parts being the same .

7:07 > Gerry197 04/23/2020 at 15:48

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Glad I’m not the only one that shops with his ear. I looked at a Transit with the 3.5L Ecoboost and passed on it for several reasons. One of them being the awful sounding engine. Power was great. Sound? Yuck. There are good sounding 6s, but most aren’t in a V shape, and if they are, they’re Italian . Plenty of nice I6s out there from all makes.

7:07 > Shift24 04/23/2020 at 15:52

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But I like the sound of the VQ *puts on flame suit*

7:07 > VincentMalamute-Kim 04/23/2020 at 15:54

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Every time I drive something with that engine I think “ooh, this power is great” but then I remember it sounds like there’s a Dyson under the hood.

7:07 > HammerheadFistpunch 04/23/2020 at 15:55

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Got it.  I think GM did the same thing with their LS line of engines and even the LT series from back in the day.  Cams and heads were different and even blocks if I remember correctly.

HammerheadFistpunch > 7:07 04/23/2020 at 16:31

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Yup. My 2uzfe has different internal materials different block material and a different tune to the 1uz in the ls but it’s otherwise the same. My guess it’s they will use a cgi 2gr block  with alloy heads and forged internals for the trucks. 5500 to 6000 rpm redline and lower total boost. Maybe dual ivvte with modified Atkinson depending on cost and requirements. Dead flat torque from 1700 to 5500 but so/so hp for the configuration. 

Jb boin > Shift24 04/23/2020 at 17:05

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The VQ can sound glorious, the exhaust headers are very crucial for the sound of a V6, more than with a V8 IMO.

Examples of Renault  V4Y R.S. (the Renault Sport version of the VQ35 that was used on the Megane RS Trophy V6 and the Formula Renault 3.5 before it switched to a V8) :

And a twin-turbo V6 can sound very nice (better than any cross-plane V8 in my opinion) :

VincentMalamute-Kim > 7:07 04/23/2020 at 17:53

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I can’t argue with that.  Mine is in a Transit and I’m old so I’m OK with a Dyson.