oppo home cooks: do you have nice knives?

"gin-san - shitpost specialist" (gin-san-) 04/05/2020 at 16:32 • Filed to: KNIFELOPNIK

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I was looking at a Wusthof as well as even more expensive Japanese steel chef knives and they get really expensive.

I use shitty knives that my parents gave to me when I got my first place close to 7 years ago. I was using one of those “V” blade sharpeners and recently got a King double-sided whetstone (1000/6000 grit) to try out sharpening myself. I’m happy with the results on my cheapo knives, but definitely need to improve my technique.

That said, are expensive chef knives worth it for home cooks? I see many people like the moderately priced Victorinox chef knife, but that stuff like Global (I don’t like the handles after using my friend’s knives), Henckels, or Wusthof are on another level. Then there are fancy expensive Japanese knives which seems to be a whole other world.

What do you guys use? Do more expensive knives actually become sharper, do they stay sharper for longer, or both? I don’t think I need some fancy carbon steel knife, but I think these are the ones that become super sharp and hold an edge?

For now, I’ll stick with my shitty, but sharp knives. I figure even if they don’t hold an edge for very long that I can work on my sharpening with these knives.

Sovande > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 16:45

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Check out Mercer knives. Nice steel, not expensive, well reviewed and in my (very much not a chef experience) pretty nice to use. I think they are also used by a bunch of culinary schools. 

DarkCreamyBeer > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 16:45

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When we got married, we registered for nice Henc kel knives, and 17 years later we still use them every day. They never go in the dishwasher, and we send them out to get sharpened periodically.

More recently we’ve augmented those with 3 Shun knives: an Asian cleaver, a sa ntoko, and a nice thin filleting knife. I love these knives. They have d shaped walnut handles that just fall just right in your hand, and also will last forever if cared for. My only issue with these are I can’t find anyone that has been able to restore the edge to the absolute perfect hardness they came with new.

Bottom lines: good knives can be a lifelong commitment and are worth it in my opinion.

whatisthatsound > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 16:50

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We returned a lot on our registry and got a set of Miyabi knives and every year when they go on sale I’ll pick up an additional one. With good upkeep and a yearly professional sharpening they have been fantastic.

Tripper > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 16:53

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We’ve got the large Cutco set which are amazing, but don’t really hold an edge as long as I would expect at their price point. I’ve got once really nice JA hinckels? Chopper that I use most often, but honestly... Victorianox sells these little red pearing knives for like $6 and I use them more than anything. They are dangerously sharp.

lone_liberal > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 16:55

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I have a nice (made in Germany) Henckel chef's knife and serrated knife. The others are just decent stuff from department stores.

RPM esq. > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 16:57

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Every restaurant I ever worked in had those Victorinox fibrox knives, so that’s what I have in my kitchen. A couple of chef friends have the same, plus maybe one or two high-end favorite knives . Unless you’re trying to become an expert at sushi, it’s hard to beat the durability and quality at anywhere near the price point, and I’d rather not feel like I have to worry about something that is, at the end of the day, a basic tool I use every day . I have a friend with a set of Wusthofs and they’re very nice but I’m not sure I’d notice the difference other than the texture of the handles. My parents have a couple Henckel knives and I admit they feel great to use but I feel like my dad is always having to sharpen them. Those fancy Japanese blades require another level of maintenance, too. In general , in theory harder steel makes for an edge that holds longer but a less durable knife long term.

gin-san - shitpost specialist > DarkCreamyBeer 04/05/2020 at 17:01

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One thing my knives lack is balance - I don’t know if it’s bullshit but chefy types seem to say a good knife shouldn’t feel too blade heavy, which all of mine do.

I have a santoku which was my favourite knife up until I sharpened my chef’s knives. I like the feel and the curve of chef knife blades compared to my santoku. I have been looking at Chinese chef knives (the cleaver looking one that’s actually a regular all-purpose knife, not a meat cleaver) as well as Japanese nakiris - haven’t decided if I should splurge on one of those or a nice chef/gyuto knife.

gin-san - shitpost specialist > whatisthatsound 04/05/2020 at 17:02

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Are those the really nice, expensive ones I see on the Zwilling site?

https://www.zwilling.ca/product/black-5000-mcd-67-8-chefs-knife/

I want one of the se just to flex.

gin-san - shitpost specialist > Sovande 04/05/2020 at 17:03

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I think I’ve heard this one mentioned a couple of times, but doesn’t come up as often as other brands in the reviews I’ve seen. I’ll look out for it!

phenotyp > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 17:03

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My daily drivers are pretty run-of-the-mill, Western-edged things. Can’t even remember the name. I just sharpen them often enough that they always do the job.

I also have a somewhat fancy ceramic, but I’ve hardly used it, really, since if I’m chopping vegetables, I’m probably also cutting and deboning, and there’s no point in using two knives in one prep. And I’ve just never felt that it was as sharp as I wanted it to be, even after sharpening (it came with a diamond grit with an angle guide). Just sorta feels like the blade itself is too fat, despite the sharpness.

Then I splurged and got a couple of the Zwilling Myabi and Morimoto knives, and they are fucking wicked. Like the knives I’ll use for the rest of my life. Perfect heft and balance. Laser-thin blade. Will slice paper straight from the factory. I don’t use them very often, but they make any meal you make with them feel special. They’re the best combo of German and Japanese knifemaking. Absolutely gorgeous. 

gin-san - shitpost specialist > RPM esq. 04/05/2020 at 17:06

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I think the best thing more expensive knives have going for them is balance. I can vaguely recall using Henckels knives at a friend’s place and them feeling better to hold than my no-name knives.

From what I’ve read, Japanese steel maintenance really depends on if you decide to stick with stainless or move to a fancy high-carbon steel. Not sure if I can commit to the higher maintenance of super-high quality knives made of weird steel.

gin-san - shitpost specialist > phenotyp 04/05/2020 at 17:07

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This is the answer I was hoping not to see - I just don’t want to believe that fancy knives are that much better...

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 17:08

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There’s a point of diminishing returns. A $100 knife and a $50 knife are not going to have as big a quality difference as a $50 knife and a $20 one. The biggest quality leap is going from stamped blades to forged, and that happens  at about the $20-25 range. My main chopping knife is this OXO Professional 8" Chef Knife that cost me $30. It’s held an edge well, is nicely balanced, and the handle is comfortable af.

I’ve also got a partial Cutco set that was given to me and by god they make the best serrated knives ever. If you can afford it get their 7 3/4" slicer and a set of their table knives.

whatisthatsound > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 17:11

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They have different levels of steel and then different wood handles which can get crazy expensive for birch and the like. We have these https://www.surlatable.com/miyabi-kaizen-ii-10-pc-block-set/PRO-4638813.html#prefn1=productType&prefv1=HardGood&q=miyabi&start=6

and then maybe 4 more additional knives. If I was recommending what knives to buy one at a time it would be 7" Santoku Knife, 4.5 Utility Knife, 3.5" Paring Knife and the slicer.  Then add the rest as you need it. 

Nom De Plume > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 17:16

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The problem might be you are looking at this through the eyes of a consumer poring over slickly designed websites. Quality is not always related with name brand or especially image. Knife sharpening has very much gone the way of overpriced solutions as well.  Decomplicate the act of finding something balanced with a grip that fits your hand.

My favorite knife at the moment is a cheaply made in China 3"(!) stainless cleaver.  It has every flaw you’d expect and is still such a unique wonder I just grab for it and use it.  That is the most important trait.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 17:20

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I use hinkel knives two 8” choppers and a couple of paring knives. Keep them sharp and that’s all you really need.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Tripper 04/05/2020 at 17:23

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I would rather die than part with my 9 3/4 ” Cutco slicer. I’ve got their butcher knife too but the edge is all nicked and it’s been sitting in drawer for ages. I keep forgetting to take advantage of their lifetime sharpening.

TheRealBicycleBuck > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 17:26

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We don’t have great knives. Ours are basic stainless that are hard to sharpen and don’t hold an edge all that well. We do have a hand-me-down carbon steel knife that is easy to sharpen and stays sharp for a while, but it needs extra care to prevent oxidation. That poor knife takes some abuse and I can’t seem to get the family to give it any love. So, I clean it up and try to keep it sharp and everyone loves to use it but nobody likes to take care of it.

AestheticsInMotion > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 17:27

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I’ll second the victorinox knives. Absolutely stellar, and at $30 you don't worry about them like a $350 Japanese blade 

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 04/05/2020 at 17:34

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Also, I endorse OXO for pretty much your whole kitchen. Their peeler and c an opener will be the last ones you ever buy.

E90M3 > DarkCreamyBeer 04/05/2020 at 17:34

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My parents still use the Henkel knives they got shortly after they were married, which is one reason they got me the same ones for Xmas one year. 

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 17:36

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Had some F.Dick knives for years and wouldn’t be without some decently balanced choppers in the kitchen. If I was buying again then I’d be going with the much cheaper  but still very good Victorinox or Dexter-Russell cook and butchering knives.

phenotyp > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 17:38

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I got mine at 65% off, at a local knife shop, so it wasn’t terrible. But my go-to recommendation is usually Global— you’ll never go wrong. Great at keeping their edge, lasts forever.

I had a small global paring  knife for about 10 years, til my girlfriend dropped it in the concrete floor and snapped the blade. I’ve given a few as gifts. But definitely also buy their sharpener, so you’re sure to get the right edge angle. 

gin-san - shitpost specialist > Nom De Plume 04/05/2020 at 17:39

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They do have such nice websites. I  really do need to watch out for the feel.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 17:40

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Nope, I've got the shittiest, dullest possible knives. And I'm not even using those since I haven't unpacked them. I'm using even crappier knives that my roommates own. Something I definitely want to invest in some day! 

RPM esq. > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 17:41

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That sounds right, plus certain Japanese blade styles/shapes also require specific sharpening techniques...always seemed like too much for  me to remember. I don’t mind doing some maintenance now and then to keep my tools doing the job but I don’t have the time or inclination for the maintenance to become the job!

DipodomysDeserti > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 17:44

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Find a good, local knife shop, and pick their brains (via email), they’re probably dead right now on account restaurant closures. Here we have the Phoenix Knifehaus which also has a shop in Portland. They hooked me up with the skills and materials to properly service my knives.

I have a decent large Henckels and a smaller unknown brand laminated Japanese knife.

I’d shoot for a midrange knife and invest in a good cutting board and whetstones.

phenotyp > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 18:09

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If you’re really looking to flex, get a Kramer:

https://www.zwilling.ca/category/kitchen/kitchen-knives/shop-brand-knives/kramer-by-zwilling/

(though you’d have to wait years for a “real” Kramer). The history of Zwilling teaming up with Miyabi and Kramer to semi-mass produce handmade, highest-quality knives is actually super interesting. Like how do you combine two totally disparate manufacturing processes?

Tripper > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 04/05/2020 at 18:09

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Yeah, that’s the thing. T hey are amazing, but they sit around dull for months before we get around to sending em out. Meanwhile, I will sharpen the other knives with an electric sharpener.

phenotyp > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 18:34

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This Global is pretty massively on sale . I’ve bought several as gifts over the years, and always wanted one for myself. They’re beautiful, and will last for decades.

gin-san - shitpost specialist > phenotyp 04/05/2020 at 18:47

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I do like that... it’s 86 CAD, not sure what it is in USD. Not cheap, but not expensive, either.

It does look nice, and I really like that it has no bolster.

gin-san - shitpost specialist > phenotyp 04/05/2020 at 18:51

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I’d love to have this holy fuck:

https://www.zwilling.ca/product/meiji-collection-chef-knife-8/

I’d never heard of Kramer knives before, but their website shows a picture with Anthony Bourdain; was this ever on one of his shows? I thought I knew them well but I don’t remember this.

Textured Soy Protein > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 18:58

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People are going to throw a lot of fancy brands at you but you don’t need them. I say this even though I have more than one knife worth more than $200 . For cheap/good western style go for Mercer and Japanese go Tojiro. The key is having them sharpened by someone who knows what they’re doing.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 19:05

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My father in law is a chef in Japan and my wife likes to cook, she has Global knives. They aren’t the most expensive but they are very good with a good sharpener.

gin-san - shitpost specialist > Textured Soy Protein 04/05/2020 at 19:13

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If I get a good knife, I’ll have it sharpened by a pro for sure.

Luckily I don’t mind if I mess up one of my existing knives, so it’s nice to work on sharpening them with the whetstone. They’re better than when I started, at least.

thatsmr > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 19:15

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My old wooden handled Chicagos have held up well although I think they are a little soft. A run through the v sharpener and some swipes on the steel has kept them alive for 20+ years. A couple IKea specials do the hacking frozen pizza, slice an orange type duty

phenotyp > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 19:23

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I love them becuase they’re modern-looking, beautifully-balanced, and super durable and sharp. (Just don’t drop ‘em flat on a concrete floor) They do get pretty slippery sometimes, though, and I’ve found it’s pretty easy to nick or slice yourself when they do. And that little tiny bit of hook at the back of the blade (it’s like 91 degrees— *just* enough to catch you off guard) can really do a number on a thumb.

The edge will stay sharp for a LONG time, compared to cheaper knives, b ut definitely get Global’s sharpener, if you get one. It’s easy to fuck it up, assuming you’re doing your own sharpening.

The two Zwillings I got are these:

Morimoto:

Which is a fairly Western-style grip for a Japanese knife , though way more comfortable than my usual. Like, supremely comfortable and usable for slicing, chopping, and as a workhorse knife . If times were normal and I were cooking like I used to, this would be my daily knife. The blade’s about half as wide as the daily, but since nearly everything I’ve been cooking has also involved a bunch of blade-side garlic smashing, I just use the daily.

The other one is a Miyabi Koh:

O nly used em like 3 times (granted, only had ‘em 3 months), and if I/we ever get back to making sashimi and nice steak, or dinner for friends, it’s like a lightsaber.

But, then, I also have a couple smaller knives that I got from Ikea 16 years ago, that as long as I sharpen them regularly, work great for most things, and have held up well enough. I wouldn’t spend anything more than $30-50 on anything smaller than an 8 inch chef knife, and I’d only spend more than 50-100 on something you know is gonna be a major step up, and only if cooking is either your profession or a real point of pride. I swore, way back when, that I would never work in any job that was food-related. So I worked in a factory, did landscaping, all sorts of other shit before I got into the “career,” and cooking stuff that blows people away is right up there with designing great products, for me, and it’s one of my biggest pleasures in life.

But seriously, it kills me that those knives have mostly been sitting and waiting. They’re artful, in the way that Japanese handcrafted things are. The Globals are like Sony-- they’re all-around great, but you really do have to watch out for those edge cases that’ll bite you in the... finger.

phenotyp > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 19:27

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I dunno. I was researching Damascus steel a few years ago, and came across this really long feature on Kramer, right when he’d paired up with Zwilling, and I was really intrigued. Honestly, that article was why I bought the Zwilling/Miyabi/Morimoto knives when I had the chance. I finally listened to Bourdain reading Kitchen Confidential the weekend after he passed, and he mentioned in passing that Global was like the knife of choice among most real chefs.

See my other reply. Sorry if this seems ilke spamming. Cooking greatly and surprisingly is one of my biggest passions.

Nom De Plume > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 19:31

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This quickly becomes akin to mechanics with the most pricey and exotic tools who use everyday stuff. Knives are as utilitarian as you can possibly get with very few exceptions. I’d focus on finding something you enjoy using more than buying and then find the sharpening supplies to match it.

phenotyp > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 19:31

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Morimoto was hard to find on Zwilling’s site, but they’re reduced.

TorqueToYield > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 19:34

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My opinion: A no name $10 carbon steel knife from an asian supermarket that’s been sharpened properly is better than a $100 stainless knife that’s never been sharpened.

gin-san - shitpost specialist > phenotyp 04/05/2020 at 20:30

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Nah it’s good to hear from someone who’s somewhat passionate about the subject. Realistically I think the Global is what I’ll look at since it’s less than $100 in Canada, whereas the Morimoto you linked isn’t even on the Zwilling Canada site, and the Koh 8" is a touch over $200.

phenotyp > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 20:47

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Yeah, the Morimoto was probably sitting around that shop for at least year or two, and they were trying to clear out inventory. The Koh is more of a speciality thing, not an RS6-type knife that’s just beautiful all-around performance. I hope I get to use the hell out of the Morimoto for the rest of my life, if things ever come back to that. I hope to use the Koh for tuna and salmon sashimi and really good steak, sometime in the future.

You’ll never go wrong with a Global. Treat it right, and it’ll treat you right forever. That’s pretty much how I approach everything, whether it’s cars, tools, cookware, shoes, whatever. Have the right tools for your jobs, and if you can, have the tools that you can hand down.

(I spent Sunday morning sanding and re-seasoning some cast iron stuff older than my parents)

Globals are better than 95% of the knives out there. Those last 5% are so incremental that they don’t matter. Just don’t let a bunch of chicken grease let your hand slip i nto the blade. That’s really my only beef with them, they’re too slippery for a clumsy fuck like me.

PyroHoltz f@h Oppo 261120 > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 21:39

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I really like our mid range Wüsthof knives. They hold an edge really well by using the steel but I probably should have them sharpened by a pro.

404 - User No Longer Available > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/05/2020 at 22:18

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My nicest ones are my Kyocera Santoku, Fibrox boning, and my Chinese cleaver from Hong Kong.

Thomas Donohue > gin-san - shitpost specialist 04/06/2020 at 08:51

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For whatever reason, I’ve always had Henckel knives. At first I had a budget version made in China(?) which were OK, but needed to be sharpened often and eventually just stopped being effective. After buying a three piece ‘ starter set’ (Zwilling, not cheap!) for my GF, I realized just how good they were.

After a ridiculous amount of research (Henckels has about 2o different lines/models) I found a deal on Ebay for a set of International classics, which are forged German steel, but made in Spain. I have a small hand sharpener that I use occasionally to keep them sharp, but send them out once a year to get a prof ess i onal edge. Great knives at about a third of the cost of the Henckel Zwilling.

I’d suggest going to a Macys/department store (not really an option now!) to see if you like the handles on any knives you buy.

Also, be careful with sets....they often don’t come with ‘matching’ steak knives but a lower version of the same brand. But if you get a good deal, they usually come with a nice block, and you can mix/match/upgrade later.