"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn)
03/25/2020 at 17:42 • Filed to: computerlopnik
0
73|
"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn)
03/25/2020 at 17:42 • Filed to: computerlopnik | 0
| 73 |
Update: Thanks for all of the great answers. I appreciate your taking the time. I’m sorry I can’t reply to all of you. Now, to formulate a path forward. Keep being awesome, Oppo.
!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
My son is getting upset because he’s playing some new game (Apex Legends, I think) with his friend online and he says it’s laggy (I know, all gamers blame the lag). He came to me this morning and said that he needs a new graphics card, probably because it’s the one his friend has, and his friend has a badass homebuilt computer. Right now, my son’s computer (Dell Optiplex 790, Intel Core i7 3.4 GHz, 8GB of RAM, Win 7) has an Nvidia Ge Force GT 710, which I purchased as an upgrade when I bought the computers a couple years ago. The one he wants is an Nvidia Ge Force GTX 1080. I have no idea if a higher number really makes any difference here, or if he would even notice it with the computer the way it is, or if it would even work with his computer. He is convinced that his problems are with the hardware and not the server, but I don’t know if there’s any way to be sure.
Since both his and his brother’s identical computers are still running Win 7, on the advice of counsel I have purchased two new 2TB HDs that I plan to install and get up to Win 10. Those arrive on Friday. I am also going to get a connector so I can hook up the old HDs externally if needed. Those connectors won’t be here for about three weeks. As it stands now, his original 500GB HD was maxed out, and I managed to clear out about 50GB of headroom. That alone might make a big difference.
The computer has four slots for RAM, two of which are used for a total of 8GB. It will accept up to 16GB total.
Questions:
• Does it make any sense to upgrade the video card in this machine?
• Should I look into getting more RAM?
• Is it possible to mount two drives in the case, and be able to boot from either one? That might make the whole thing more workable until that connector arrives.
Thanks. I’m not crazy about spending all this money, but his PC is pretty much his life right now, since it’s where he hangs out with his friends.
Thomas Donohue
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 16:24 |
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What online provider are you using? Speed?
You can run the below test from his PC to get a general idea of what the actual latency and throughput is.
InFierority Complex
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 16:24 |
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Not a computer expert but I’m bored. Looks like a 710 is above the minimum requirements but it might be on the outdated side. Lag might be down to internet connection, though?
atfsgeoff
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 16:25 |
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GTX1080 will surely provide a huge boost in gaming performance compared to an old GTX 710. That’s like comparing a Mitsubishi Mirage to a Mustang GT350.
BUT, before you drop $400+ on a GTX 1080 card, make sure that it will:
(1) physically fit inside the case, as the 1080 is a pretty large and long card,
(2) not overdraw your power supply; you want a minimum 500W power supply, 600W+ preferred, and
(3) make sure your case has adequate airflow. This can be somewhat alleviated by running it with the side panel off, but ideally you want at least one 120mm or larger intake fan in the front of the case, funneling fresh air in underneath where the video card resides to supply its own fans with ambient temp air which will then be expelled through the back vents of the card.
And yeah, an upgrade to 16GB of system RAM is a good idea as well.
You said the machines are still running Windows 7, how old are they? If they were bought before ~2012, I’d say it’s time to upgrade to a whole new machine before getting the GTX 1080.
bob and john
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 16:26 |
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jesus a 710?
that card was outdated 4 years ago....
a 1080 is a substantial
jump up. and certianly a good one ...roughly 30x faster
https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Nvidia-GTX-1080-vs-Nvidia-GeForce-GT-710/3603vsm77649
but its a big price jump. you could look at a 1660 TI which is about 21x faster but a bit more budget freindly (and what I have in my PC atm)
https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Nvidia-GeForce-GT-710-vs-Nvidia-GTX-1660-Ti/m77649vs4037
This kind of jump will show show other bottle necks in the syste
m. RAM will certianly be your next upgrade. look into 8GB sticks instead of 4GB sticks.
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ttyymmnn
> Thomas Donohue
03/25/2020 at 16:26 |
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Spectrum, 118 down, 12 up. Computers are wired to the router, not wifi.
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ttyymmnn
> InFierority Complex
03/25/2020 at 16:27 |
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That’s what I’m thinking. Global networks are supposedly getting hammered with everybody sitting at home.
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ttyymmnn
> atfsgeoff
03/25/2020 at 16:28 |
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The one he showed me wasn’t $400, so maybe I’ve got my numbers wrong. And I wouldn’t know how to see what the power supply is.
Eric @ opposite-lock.com
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 16:29 |
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With numbers like that, l atency and jitter are going to be better indicators of whether or not it’s the internet connection.
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atfsgeoff
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 16:29 |
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The power supply should have a label on the side that tells you the total watt output. Take the side panel off and look for a big metal box inside where the power cord plugs into. A reasonably good 500W power supply should run $60 or $70.
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ttyymmnn
> Eric @ opposite-lock.com
03/25/2020 at 16:30 |
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Can you explain please?
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ttyymmnn
> atfsgeoff
03/25/2020 at 16:31 |
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At this rate, he’s going to get the homebuilt computer he always wanted....
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Thomas Donohue
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 16:31 |
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What was the ping time?
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ttyymmnn
> Thomas Donohue
03/25/2020 at 16:32 |
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Ping is 28
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InFierority Complex
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 16:34 |
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Eh, on second thought it’s definitely not great. Internet could also be an issue too, but that old 710 isn’t helping any.
TheRealBicycleBuck
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 16:34 |
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I remember that book!
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ttyymmnn
> InFierority Complex
03/25/2020 at 16:35 |
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that old 710 isn’t helping any
Stop! I told him that his card was fine! You gonna make a liar out of me, or at least make him right.
Nibby
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 16:36 |
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you would need to upgrade the power supply and it’s a nearly 10 year old PC (2011)
so i would not invest anything in it and maybe get him some used workstation and pimp it out... even a GTX1070 (which can be found for around $200 used) will be better. You could probably build a pretty sweet rig for him for less than $500 total
i’ll make another reply
facw
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 16:36 |
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• Does it make any sense to upgrade the video card in this machine?
A 710 is anemic, and will be awful for gaming. I would not purchase a 1080 though. It would be serious overkill, and at the same time dated enough to be not worth that sort of money. From a pure value standpoint, the best place for a respectable gaming card would be to find a cheap 8GB Radeon RX570 or 580. For example this one is $145 shipped, and would be fine for gaming (not great, but vastly more powerful than a 710): https://www.newegg.com/xfx-radeon-rx-570-rx-570p8dfd6/p/N82E16814150815?&quicklink=true A $400 video card is not needed to have a good time. You may need to check your power supply, a low end model might not handle even a mid-range card, in which case you’d want to look at a Geforce 1650 (non-Super), which can be had not requiring external power connectors.
• Should I look into getting more RAM?
Shouldn’t be a high priority. Having 16 or 24GB would be better, but most current games will run ok on 8.
• Is it possible to mount two drives in the case, and be able to boot from either one? That might make the whole thing more workable until that connector arrives.
Almost certainly. Though you might have to go into the BIOS to select which one it boots from.
FWIW, here are the minimum specs for Apex Legends:
OS:
64-bit Windows 7
CPU: Intel Core i3-6300 3.8GHz / AMD FX-4350 4.2 GHz Quad-Core Processor
RAM: 6GB
GPU:
NVIDIA GeForce GT 640 / Radeon HD 7730
GPU RAM: 1 GB
HARD DRIVE: Minimum 22 GB of free space
So processor-wise, you should be fine 3.8GHz is faster, but your i7 is likely significantly stronger overall. RAM is good enough, the Geforce 640 is better than the GeForce 710, so he’s bellow minimum there, though with 2GB of video RAM, he’s fine.
Recommended specs are higher, but that 570 would get you there:
OS: 64-bit Windows 7
CPU:
Intel i5 3570K or equivalent
RAM:
8GB
GPU:
Nvidia GeForce GTX 970 / AMD Radeon R9 290
GPU RAM:
8GB
HARD DRIVE: Minimum 22 GB of free space
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ttyymmnn
> TheRealBicycleBuck
03/25/2020 at 16:36 |
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I still have that book!
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Nibby
> atfsgeoff
03/25/2020 at 16:36 |
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it’s sandy bridge era so yea time for a newer rig
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ttyymmnn
> Nibby
03/25/2020 at 16:37 |
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Thanks.
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atfsgeoff
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 16:37 |
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If the machine is too old, I’d humbly suggest getting a new machine as a base, and adding the video card to it:
https://www.amazon.com/Acer-TC-885-UA92-Desktop-i5-9400-802-11AC/dp/B07R8WJMW6/
Also, if you’re getting a 2TB platter-based hard drive, that’s gonna be your bottleneck in performance, The fastest drives are called NVME or PCI-E solid state drives (SSDs). They run circles around old platter/mechanical drives. Stick the 2TB drive in as a storage volume and run Windows and games off the SSD.
Oh and don’t let the Core i5 CPU fool you with that Acer machine, I guarantee it’s faster than the i7 in your existing Dell if it’s older than 4 years.
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Thomas Donohue
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 16:38 |
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That’s on the high side, but should be fine. (mine is 7 ms for comparison, but I’m on Verizon fiber)
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ttyymmnn
> facw
03/25/2020 at 16:38 |
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You people keep telling me that my old card sucks and I just got through telling my kid he was wrong. Now I’ve got to apologize.
But that’s okay. Thanks.
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Nibby
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 16:39 |
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also what’s your budget total
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ttyymmnn
> Thomas Donohue
03/25/2020 at 16:39 |
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Right now, Spectrum is the fastest game in town.
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TheRealBicycleBuck
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 16:41 |
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While others help you diagnose the video card, I’ll help you determine whether it’s really a video card issue. “Ping” is a measure of how long it takes for a packet of information to be sent to the game server and get sent back to you. It affects how the game responds. To distin guish between video card issues and internet connectivity issues, have him turn down the resolution in the game and see how it plays. If it looks terrible but the problems with lag go away, then the issue isn’t the internet connection, it’s the computer’s ability to process the graphics.
Some gamers will turn down the graphics resolution to improve the response rate. Others will throw money at the problem so they can see the games in all their glory.
I err on the good-enough side. If I can see what’s going on and still maintain decent framerates, I’m happy.
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InFierority Complex
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 16:44 |
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It’s technically fine, which is the best kind of fine.
ETA: It’s actually not, tho. Apologies for steering you wrong.
I don’t know if you need to jump all the way to the 1080. There are more knowledgeable people in the thread though, so listen to them.
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Thomas Donohue
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 16:46 |
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You may have already searched for stuff like this, but some games will show you specifics on graphics vs network speed, and turning down the quality of the video will impr ove performance. Good luck!
It may help in seeing if the video card is indeed the culprit. Also, as an excuse not to but a new one, remind your son that the world is in the shitter and a new card from Amazon might take five weeks to be delivered, and he should learn to live with lower graphics quality.
(young me would have killed older me for that comment above!)
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facw
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 16:50 |
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Yeah, the 710 is a bottom of the line card from 6 years ago, so it’s really not going to do much for modern games.
If you look at UserBenchmark: https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/
It scores a 3.3% benchmark score, compared to ~100% for a 2060 Super, 105% for a 1080, and 48.8% for that RX 570 I mentioned (that includes the 4GB model, which is a little slower).
https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/SpeedTest/77649/NVIDIA-GeForce-GT-710
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Nibby
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 16:50 |
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snag this
an ATX pin adapter for it
this power supply
https://www.amazon.com/EVGA-WHITE-Warranty-Supply-100-W1-0500-KR/dp/B00H33SFJU/
this SSD
https://www.newegg.com/sandisk-ssd-plus-240gb/p/N82E16820173151
and i can help you find a video card... should be around $600-650 total
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InFierority Complex
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 16:51 |
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That's my fault, I think. Sorry for that.
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Eric @ opposite-lock.com
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 16:58 |
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You might have some compatibility problems, as that computer is legitimately ancient. It probably have an i7-2600 or so, which dates back to 2011. Everything in that machine is a bottleneck at this point...
I have an ancient machine I built back in 2013 with an i7-4770 that I consider it RC recycle fodder, but it does have a GTX 780 that I used when I built it , which is still a half-decent card.
If you really want to upgrade, I’d do a white box special with a 9th gen i3-9100, any 9th-gen suitable motherboard (B365, H370, Z370, or Z390 ), 16GB of DDR4-2666 , a decent M.2 SSD around 500GB (seriously, stop buying spinning disks, it’s 2020 and those things are barely suitable for backups anymore, they’re a serious bottleneck ; this should run you about $120 ), a modern case (because that old one won’t support any modern USB ports, plus it’s probably huge and/or intentionally proprietary because Dell ) , a modern ~600W PSU , and a GTX 1660 (~$230). Once he has a job to pay for his own stuff , he can upgrade to a GTX 1080 or maybe a GTX 2070 since none of the computer will be a bottleneck. If he wants, he could then upgrade the processor or RAM easily, as well ...
This is basically the computer I keep telling my wife I’ll build her (she keeps hanging on to the old i7-4770 because it’s better than her work laptop and she doesn’t want to spend the $500-ish to upgrade, but it’s getting a little flaky after 4 years of heavy gaming and a life of having the processor and video card pegged as it chewed up WUs) , except with a bigger PSU and a modern low-mid - range video card.
ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 17:03 |
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A 1080 (or the current 2080/2080 super) would be o verkill for this system, if it could even run it. That GTX710 is going to struggle to much of anything modern, but even if his optiplex 790 is the full tower it probably doesn't have enough power supply to run much more graphics card than it currently has with also upgrading that.
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ttyymmnn
> Nibby
03/25/2020 at 17:13 |
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Haven’t thought that far, but it’s beginning to look like a whole new machine, loaded with W10, would make more sense than trying to upgrade the innards of what we have. I just wish it weren’t x2.
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ttyymmnn
> InFierority Complex
03/25/2020 at 17:14 |
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No worries. I already told him he is right, he has gloated over it, and I apologized to him. It’s all good.
AdamB
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 17:19 |
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To be honest, I know nothing about computers. The only advice I offer is to not spend crazy money, it's not like he will be playing Apex Legends in a decade. I don't know his age but most teenagers don't even play it. Though going through the other replies shows the the tech is very outdated, so I would recommend an upgrade so he can be able to play with his friends and not be known as that one kid with the laggy computer in the party.
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Eric @ opposite-lock.com
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 17:20 |
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The round trip time to somewhere on the internet. Jitter is a measure of how erratic that round trip time is.
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ttyymmnn
> Nibby
03/25/2020 at 17:40 |
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And all of this and still Win 7. So, my question now is, are we approaching the point where, like by 2003 Odyssey, it makes more sense to get a new machine rather than putting new parts in a 10 year old one?
If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 17:51 |
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Oh, hun. The laptop I had five years ago could blow that 710 out of the water. Playing a new game like Apex Legends it’s no wonder he’s having trouble with framerates. I have a GT 1030 I’d be willing to part with for the cost of shipping if you’re interested. It’s nowhere near as good as the 1080 your kid wants but it’ll be a significant boost over the 710.
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ttyymmnn
> If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent
03/25/2020 at 17:57 |
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Thanks, I’ll definitely keep that in mind. As I said with the top photo, I really have no idea when it comes to these sorts of things. I’m a lifetime Mac guy who never got into gaming. As it is, my iMac is almost 10 years old. I’m trying to decide now if it simply makes more sense to buy a couple of new(er) machines rather than cram a bunch of upgraded parts into an 10yo case.
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ttyymmnn
> TheRealBicycleBuck
03/25/2020 at 18:11 |
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Thanks. And I don’t game at all!
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Nibby
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 18:34 |
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yes totally makes sense to get a new PC
Jarrett - [BRZ Boi]
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 19:14 |
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I’m late to the party, but I suggest a family bonding adventure by going full custom. They’re not too hard - almost like Lego!
There are some great resources out there that take you step-by-step on how to build a completely custom computer:
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ttyymmnn
> Nibby
03/25/2020 at 19:19 |
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Do you have a recommendation? Remember, I’m buying two.
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Nibby
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 19:30 |
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ahh shit, then this complicates things a bit...
prebuilts are a thing but the modern ones have skinny cases that make it hard to stuff in larger GPUs and the ones that do come with the GTX1070s and up kind of cards are usually close to four figures EACH.
are you both gaming or is it just
the kid and one machine for everyday use?
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ttyymmnn
> Nibby
03/25/2020 at 19:49 |
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I have twin boys, both in 8th grade (I’m on an iMac). They play a few online games (as of now, Apex, Rainbow 6, a tiny bit of Minecraft, maybe a game or two on Steam, they want to play COD but we might not let them, and they watch tons of YouTube. So I’m not necessarily looking for something that can be upgraded later. But I suppose that’s a requirement as time passes.
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Nibby
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 19:56 |
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hmm okay i really need a max budget for this, assuming you don’t need keyboard/mice/monitors... just the towers only
Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 20:21 |
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He always says that.
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Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 20:22 |
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You will rise in stature.
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ttyymmnn
> Nibby
03/25/2020 at 21:02 |
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Towers only. What can I do for $1, 000?
Nom De Plume
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 21:28 |
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Nearly jumped in earlier. I see three very simply stated options.
1. Used full system with GTX 970/GTX 10xx for cheap from someone upgrading.
3. Give the needy little needer a budget and tell him to go research what he wants done with it.
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Nibby
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 21:29 |
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look for these, optiplex 9020 or 7020 towers with i7 4790 and 16GB RAM, SSD... buy two
two of these atx adapters to upgrade the power supply
an 80 plus 500-550W PSU
https://www.amazon.com/EVGA-WHITE-Warranty-Supply-100-W1-0500-KR/dp/B00H33SFJU/
and for video... even a GTX 1060 6GB or RX 580 8GB would be a massive upgrade
still under $1000
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ttyymmnn
> Nibby
03/25/2020 at 21:39 |
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Well, he’s been wanting up build his own computer. I suppose this comes pretty close to that. Thanks so much for the help.
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ttyymmnn
> Nibby
03/25/2020 at 21:42 |
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On a difficulty-to-put-together scale of 1-5, where does this rank?
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Nibby
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 21:42 |
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no problem. happy to help... please keep me posted. and this would pretty much be like building his own... cause they’ll also want to clean the fans and heatsink + redo the paste on the processor and give the machines a nice wipe down. but all of that stuff i linked is stuff i would buy for myself honestly... and i’ve bought several machines from the seller of that dell optiplex 9020
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Nibby
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 21:46 |
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probably a 2 or 3, it’s relatively straightforward and they’re easy machines to work on. just make sure you have a proper screwdriver kit (standard phillips is all you’ll need) also i forgot about SSDs lol
buy some SATA III cables (they’re cheap) make sure you get the right angle ones
https://www.amazon.com/Cable-Matters-3-Pack-Degree-Right/dp/B018Y2LEBE/
and 2 of these
https://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-480GB-Solid-State-SDSSDA-480G-G26/dp/B01F9G46Q8/
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ttyymmnn
> Nibby
03/25/2020 at 21:59 |
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Now, after all of this, is there a prefab option that would be comparable? Or would it be way too expensive?
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Nibby
> ttyymmnn
03/25/2020 at 22:07 |
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not for under $600 a pop and i think it’s a better idea to buy a used prebuilt than someone else’s used project
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ttyymmnn
> Nibby
03/28/2020 at 19:39 |
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Hey, Nibby. Another question. My son found this video card and I’m wondering what is your opinion of it for this project.
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 TI Founders Edition 11GB GDDR5X Graphic Card
How does it rate against the one you suggested? Thanks!
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Nibby
> ttyymmnn
03/28/2020 at 22:28 |
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that’s just the box
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ttyymmnn
> Nibby
03/28/2020 at 22:31 |
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Not sure what you mean by that. My son, the one who is spearheading this project, would like to have some input in the parts that we select. This I one that he found, but I know nothing about it.
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Nibby
> ttyymmnn
03/28/2020 at 22:43 |
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yea you will never find one of these for $36 + shipping. these cards are $250+ used... it’s a fake/scam/box only. sometimes ebay accounts get hacked and stuff like this pops up
if you were to buy it, the order would get cancelled in a day or two from ebay
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ttyymmnn
> Nibby
03/28/2020 at 22:51 |
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Gotcha. Thanks. If you’re willing to play along, perhaps you can help me give my son some decision making power. If you were to give me two, maybe three cards to choose from? I don’t know, but I would imagine that at a certain point there would be more than one card that would have desirable performance?
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Nibby
> ttyymmnn
03/29/2020 at 08:24 |
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for your budget really... RX580 8GB, GTX 1060 6GB or GTX1070 8GB. find used ones don’t buy them new cause they’ll be much more
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ttyymmnn
> Nibby
03/29/2020 at 11:41 |
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Thanks.
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Nibby
> ttyymmnn
03/29/2020 at 12:16 |
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and tell him to ignore the sub-$100 listings for the reasons i told you above.... and only buy from sellers with plenty of
good feedback
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ttyymmnn
> Nibby
04/09/2020 at 16:00 |
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Hey Nibby: Still working on this project. Got FeForce GTX 1060 6GB cards off eBay, but they don’t fit in the Dell 9020 mini tower. Computer store is recommending GTX 1650 4GB instead. Waiting to hear on price. Paid $130 each for the 1060s. Thoughts? Thanks.
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Nibby
> ttyymmnn
04/09/2020 at 17:51 |
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I think you can remove the drive cages on the bottom and just screw in the drive(s) in the 2nd optical bay and that weird 3.5" bay right below it
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ttyymmnn
> Nibby
04/09/2020 at 17:56 |
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Hmm. I’ll call and ask. If not, how does something like this look? It seems to be the appropriate dimensions.
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Nibby
> ttyymmnn
04/09/2020 at 18:10 |
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yea those will fit fine
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ttyymmnn
> Nibby
04/09/2020 at 18:12 |
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Specs okay?
One of the cards I ordered (well, one of the cards Rusty ordered for me) had some evidence of rust on it. The computer shop warned that it might be damaged, but we couldn’t check it out since we can’t get it loaded in the case. S o I’m going to go ahead and return both of them and move on with smaller cards.
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Nibby
> ttyymmnn
04/09/2020 at 18:39 |
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yeah return them and get those 1650s... they’ll still be a massive upgrade
it’s like going from a 2006 corolla to a new 2020 avalon