Your last chance to fly on an A310

"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn) 03/11/2020 at 15:19 • Filed to: wingspan

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The Airbus A300, the world’s first widebody twinjet, entered service with Air France in 1974, but it wasn’t long before the airlines were clamoring for something just a bit smaller for shorter routes but still with the legs to fly across the ocean. Airbus responded by shortening the A300 to produce the A310, which entered service in 1983 and offered the same 8-abreast seating found in the A300 and with accommodations for up to 240 passengers and a range of almost 6,000 miles.

Over 15 years of production from 1983-1998, Airbus cranked out 255 A310s, and they were flown by over a hundred different airlines at one time or another. Today, only about 40 remain flying, with the bulk of those operated by governments or militaries. Commercially, most remaining A310s ply the skies for Iranian or Afghan airlines. Air Transat of Canada is the last western carrier to operate the widebody, and they plan to retire their remaining A310s after a final return flight from Paris-Charles de Gaul to Quebec City on April 27. The airline will replace the aging widebodies with newer Airbus A321LRs. If you really want to fly on an A310, you’ll have to travel to Iran or Afghanistan.

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For me, the retirement of the A310 doesn’t strike any emotional chords or produce a sense of nostalgia. It’s no secret that I’m a Boeing guy at heart (though they are making it harder and harder these days), but Airbus airliners–fine aircraft to be sure–just don’t have the same allure to me as ones built by Boeing, a company that dates back to the Golden Age of Aviation and the dawn of the Jet Age. Aviation nuts rushed to Iran to fly on the 707 and the 727 for the last time, and tears will be shed by many (including myself, perhaps) when the last 747 is parked in the desert. Enthusiasts are counting the days until the retirement of the 757, that funky, long, hot rod of a plane that still inspires awe with its power (along with curses if you’re waiting to deplane from the last row). But is anybody going to rush to Paris to catch the last A310 flight across the Atlantic? I imagine some will, but likely just to tick a box in a life list rather than take part in capital-letter Aviation History.

Last December, I flew from Austin to New York City with a stopover in Baltimore. The southern leg was flown on a Boeing 737-800, and northern leg on an Airbus A320. For the first time in my life, I got on the plane, went to my seat, never looked out the window, and simply waited patiently for my flight to arrive. The flights were....fine. I would like to lament the end of the A310 era. But the modern airliner has become an appliance. And that makes me sad.

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For more stories about aviation, aviation history, aviators, and airplanes, visit !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

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SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > ttyymmnn 03/11/2020 at 15:41

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Of all the bad news o ut of the ongoing disaster that is Boeing these days is, perhaps, the death of the earlier design brief on the NMA is the most long-lived . As originally proposed, it would have been a n oval-tubed wonder of twin aisle 787-ish passenger comforts to replace the 757/767... alas,   it seem s dead.

Now, it appears we’ll just get longer and longer slices of the same single-aisle sausages. And that’s truly sad. Because if you hated the wait-for-exit from the back row of a 757-300 ... you’re surely going to hate the gymnastics required to “do your business” in the lav of a 737-900 or the various flavors of those over-extended single-aisle planes in coming years . Those lavs are miserable. The hard seats are miserable. The knee room is miserable.

facw > ttyymmnn 03/11/2020 at 15:44

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Tough to get too worked up about the A310, it’s more or less an A300, and really even the A330 isn’t wildly different from a passenger perspective.

In not quite retirement news, I did see Lufthansa is grounding all their A380s as they can’t fill them due to our current pandemic. Mainly the associated photos made me regret that Lufthansa’s new livery (which is fine) is so weak compared to their old one.  

Textured Soy Protein > ttyymmnn 03/11/2020 at 15:52

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The one plane I’m nostalgic for is the DC-10/MD-11. Around 1988-89, when I was 6-7 years old, my mom’s dad was sick & dying with heart disease, and my parents were well off enough that we made a ton of weekend flights from DC to Chicago to visit with him. I thought the triple-engine planes were cool, because as a kid it’s like, WHOA THAT PLANE HAS AN ENGINE IN THE TAIL, but the 727 didn’t have much going for it other than the third engine. But I was always excited to see a DC-10.

Nowadays if I see a United logo I’m like NOOOOOOOO RUN AWAY!!!!

ClassicDatsunDebate > ttyymmnn 03/11/2020 at 15:54

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Not a lot of love for the A310...especially if you’ve only flown on one in Air Transat set-up. It’s a vacation charter so it’s in sardine mode.

I fly a lot on the regionals so I get a few Beechcraft 1900 C and D, Saab 340 and Shorts 360 flights every year . Talk about personality. Even the Q900 is personable. Not to mention Beaver, Otter.

ttyymmnn > facw 03/11/2020 at 16:08

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Lufthansa’s new livery is not fine, it’s boring and lame. “Weak” is a good word.

Airbus admitted that it was probably ten years too late when it introduced the A380. Some people say that the project was doomed to fail from the beginning. Additionally, it looks like Airbus never even came close to making a profit with the airplane. ( link )

Which is also to say that trying to read the tea leaves as an aircraft manufacturer is hard. It’s why Boeing still hasn’t pulled the trigger on the NMA or whatever it is now. I certainly wouldn’t want to be gambling $25B  of the company’s money.

ttyymmnn > ClassicDatsunDebate 03/11/2020 at 16:20

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Never flown on any turboprops (might have flown an ATR once, many years ago). I photographed this SAAB 2000  at AUS a couple of years ago.

ttyymmnn > Textured Soy Protein 03/11/2020 at 16:24

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I flew on a DC-10 once for about 30 minutes. We took off from CDG bound for somewhere (Denver maybe?) and shortly after takeoff I heard the gear come up and then go right back down. Captain said they had an indication of a gear problem and we were returning to CVG to check it out. The guy next to me said “Why can’t we check it out in Denver?”

Growing up, my parents were divorced and my brother and I lived with our mom. We flew out of ORD many times, unaccompanied, to visit our father in VA. Those were such exciting times, and stoked my love of aviation.

You might appreciate this photo I found on the flickrs:

All the Oshkosh snowblowers lined up at ORD back in the 80s, I think. Not sure when the DC-10 was retired. 

user314 > ttyymmnn 03/11/2020 at 16:31

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“Why can’t we check it out in Denver?”

ttyymmnn > user314 03/11/2020 at 16:32

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Well, I mean, he has a point. What’s the difference between doing a flyby of the tower at CVG to see if we’re down and locked vs doing it at DEN? We still have to land, no matter where we are. 

user314 > ttyymmnn 03/11/2020 at 16:41

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I vaguely remember flying a USAir Dash 8 right after 9/11 to Dayton to go to the USAF Museum. I recall it being somewhat noisy and cramped, though that was probably more to do with my own dimensions than the plane’s.

ttyymmnn > user314 03/11/2020 at 16:45

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The thing that I remember being odd about the ATR was that the economy passenger cabin was separated from FC and the cockpit by the luggage compartment, which I though was rather odd. I mean, it makes sense, but it was new to me.

ttyymmnn > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 03/11/2020 at 16:51

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http://www.askthepilot.com/the-plane-that-isnt/

user314 > ttyymmnn 03/11/2020 at 16:55

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True, but airline pilots are generally conservative by nature, and would rather put it down sooner rather than later, on the assumption that whatever’s going on will get worse, and you don’t want to be somewhere over BF Iowa when it happens.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > ttyymmnn 03/11/2020 at 17:03

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Oh, I’m crushed. I hate that guy! And, yet he and I agree on something. Oy-vey.

But, yeah, the seeds for where Boeing is today were sown a long, long time ago.

I fly back and forth to Maui and lot and there’s still a reassurance to experience that take-off roll on a cool evening, at sea level, in an old-school 757. There’s no sense of rotate-gather-speed-”positive rate”.... it’s more like a rocketship in the way that rotate-then-fly is one action. Once you rotate, at least in the back, you sense the rears are off the tarmac almost immediately. Angle of attack higher, rate of climb better. An NG doesn’t feel dangerous, just slower to rotate and get the rears off.

As I understand it, UAL finally threw in the towel— tired of waiting for a proper 757-200 replacement— and ordered all those XLRs.

I was slow to warm up to the 321, but I’m much happier to see one these days than a NG/ 800/900. I’ve come to really distrust Boeing and what they stand for.

ttyymmnn > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 03/11/2020 at 17:04

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What’s to hate?

Darkbrador > ttyymmnn 03/11/2020 at 17:17

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I’m lucky e nough to work for a company that owns two planes . No more commercial flights anywhere in North America !

W e use a King Air for short-ish distances (this guy here in picture). A bit rough on bumpy days, but this thing is a mule, taking you anywhere anytime.

For longer trips we use this little hot rod there :

Th is thing cruises a bit above the buses and 18-wheelers of the sky , and hauls some serious @ss. A bit cramped but high above the turbulences, it’s always a treat.

ttyymmnn > Darkbrador 03/11/2020 at 17:18

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Never flown in a bizjet. I’d like to, though. 

Darkbrador > ttyymmnn 03/11/2020 at 17:26

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It’s great for airplane nerds like us (I’m a private pilot) to hang out and shoot the sh&t with the professional pilots, hang out at the hangar and various FBOs around the country ...

It’s certainly not as glamourous as it looks. Not as c omfy as an airliner, a bit more legroom (unless you’re in the facing seats and have to play leg tetris with some colleagues) but less headroom and these small airframes let you feel way more turbulences.    

Now, no more public parking, security lines, random sick stranger as seat neighbor, silly safety announcements, credit card offer announcements, yo u name it ... it beats commercial flights any day of the week.

Also, we can leave after breakfast, spend a day of work on the other side of the country and be back home for dinner ...

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > ttyymmnn 03/11/2020 at 17:36

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Years ago I was working in operations at a small regional airport in CT. During winter the ops guys worked with maintenance plowing the runways when needed, and my fav job was driving the snowblower. (same one in the photo) Those things had two diesels; one to power the vehicle and a bigger one to power the auger. When you cranked up the power on the auger it’d throw the snow an easy 50ft. It was impressive. 

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > Darkbrador 03/11/2020 at 17:44

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Love King Airs. I have some time in the B200 but mostly C208 and PC-12. Do you work for Horton? 

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > ttyymmnn 03/11/2020 at 17:45

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They need to get their cash cow 737Max straightened out before they can invest billions in the NMA. 

ttyymmnn > Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom 03/11/2020 at 17:49

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Back in the late 70s, my brother and I were trying to fly home from ORD. There was such a snowstorm that the airport was closed for three days. They simply couldn’t keep up. 

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > ttyymmnn 03/11/2020 at 17:53

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I don’t know how much longer the 747 will carry self loading cargo for a major airline, but they are going to be flying the word hauling cargo for a long time to come.

ttyymmnn > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 03/11/2020 at 18:11

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I know, but it’s not the same as hauling pax. 

AlfaCorse > ttyymmnn 03/11/2020 at 18:24

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Maybe the airline had a maintenance base in CVG, and it would be easier to fix there and less disruption to the network than having the plane be stuck in Denver and having to send a replacement flight out there.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > ttyymmnn 03/11/2020 at 18:40

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Since I’m an AV Geek my wife bought me his first Ask The Pilot book years ago. I thought his answers to previous reader questions (he’d just moved up from flying regionals to right seat on his major) were a little too glib for anyone who’d spent lots of time on airliners (I’ve got about 4 million miles in total on UAL, AA and DL)... and his anecdote about a near-miss mid-air (not on company time, but on his personal time) off the coast of Mass struck me as a little cavalier.

Bunch of little stuff- His answer about a Pilot that Made a Rough Landing struck me as off-note..,., basically his claim was that all pilots fly the same Ops Manual and thus no pilot was better at landings than any other pilot. Having experienced thousands of landings by now? I agreed to disagree with him on that one .

His does have a good writing style, so will give him credit there . And he does simplify complex topics for lay readers. So “hate” is too strong;   I’d revise that to “maintain healthy skepticism”. I put him in the same camp as the US pilots over on PPRUNE quick to blame “poor pilot skills” for any crash involving a non-North American carrier..... As we’ve found out with the MAX, usually the truth is more complex.

ttyymmnn > AlfaCorse 03/11/2020 at 19:20

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I’m not going to second guess the pros. I’m sure they knew what they were doing. It was just a funny situation. 

AlfaCorse > ttyymmnn 03/11/2020 at 20:21

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Maybe they just didn’t want to go to Denver haha

ttyymmnn > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 03/11/2020 at 21:01

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I don’t read the guy regularly at all, but I do agree with him on this also. I had a friend who is/was (I haven’t spoken to him in many years) an airline pilot. He started out flying DC-9s with Valujet, then flew freighter MD-11s internationally for Atlas, then landed a job with US Air flying up and down the East Coast. Like doctors, pilots can be an insufferable, arrogant lot. They act like what they know is some Great Secret that only they can make sense of, so they tend to talk down to those who have a genuine interest in their field but not the training. My friend got to be a bit that way. And it’s a shame, because they could do a lot to break up much of the fog of mystery that surrounds their work, and help people understand just what the job entails.

While there are certainly plenty of pilots who aren’t that way, the ones we tend to hear from are the ones who want to stroke their ego by sounding important. However, one of the most down-to-earth, human pilots I ever spoke to was an F-35 driver at an air show in Fort Worth. I started by asking him, “Is this your plane?” Yes. “Do you like it?” Great big grin. Yes. Pretty soon we were talking about his aircraft, jet fighter acquisition and tactics in general, military history, the future of aerial war fighting, you name it. We talked for a good long time, and I would like to think it’s because I didn’t walk up and say, “How many bombs can you carry? How fast can you go?” He was a very cerebral individual, as you would almost have to be to fly that particular airplane.

Contrast that with the F-22 jock next to him. I asked him the same question and all he wanted to talk about was how he could kick everybody’s ass in the sky. Interestingly, I had already asked the F-35 driver if he thought he could take the F-22. He gave me a small smile and said, “Yup.” And I believe him.

Darkbrador > Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom 03/12/2020 at 10:49

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Maybe. Who’s asking ? ;-)

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > ttyymmnn 03/12/2020 at 13:12

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Yeah. This. You hit it right on the head here...

They act like what they know is some Great Secret that only they can make sense of, so they tend to talk down to those who have a genuine interest in their field

With lot s of people in the profession, it’s not surprising you get a few arrogant guys— but when you try to engage them even on “basics”, they start to condescend. I’ve got a background in aerospace engineering, at the beginning of my career, plus solo training and (after decades away) am edging toward a Light Sport ticket. So, I can definitely understand the rudiments.

When I was working in DC I had a house out in Annapolis right under the Approach Path for Runway 33L. I’m flying back on DL one afternoon and look out the RIGHT window and see my house! No big deal, but 33L had been closed for repairs for a couple of weeks. CLOSED. So we continue the approach over Annapolis, Parole, Severna Park.... I’m thinking “WTF?!?? That runway is closed! We’re definitely doing a Go-Around...” A few seconds go by, then WHOOSH, we’re into an abrupt right hand turn. I’m looking straight at the ground, then down at the Chesapeake, under my right window. 30 seconds... then WHOOSH hard left turn. We continue the approach over the Bay, then glide in over Glen Burnie— clearly lined up on Runway 28. Touch down, taxi in. Soooooo, I can’t resist, since the pilot’s standing at the cockpit door smirking in his grandeur “Thanks for flying Delta...” So, I come back with “Hey, it looked like you were lined up on 33. That one’s been closed for awhile....” I didn’t mean it as a complaint, just an observation.... But he immediately gets a weird look on his face and goes into denial.... “No we just fly what ATC gives us.” I give him a look like “heh”, then said something like “Some of us know the difference between 33 and 28"... and walked off the plane. Dickhead.

OTOH, I knew a delightful FEMALE ex F-15 pilot who couldn’t have been more self-effacing and humble. Her stories of the trials and tribulations of flight training.... — and she was near the top of her class at the Academy too. Made me damn proud that we have such great people in the services.

I don’t follow Patrick Smith much anymore— and I’m sure he’s an interesting read. Just a little condescending sometimes.

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > Darkbrador 03/13/2020 at 00:42

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I just looked up the King Air’s tail # and that’s who it came back to .