"Ash78, voting early and often" (ash78)
03/10/2020 at 10:37 • Filed to: None
2
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"Ash78, voting early and often" (ash78)
03/10/2020 at 10:37 • Filed to: None | 2
| 70 |
I woke up this morning to about 50 replies, but thanks to Kinja I can’t even see them in full, let alone reply to them.
!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
TLDR: Ford is considering launching a new entry-level compact pickup to slot below the Ranger. As cool as this sounds, my business theory was that this is a bad idea (on a large scale) because small pickups are so redundant to crossovers now. There will be lawn care, pool services, etc, but for average homeowners it’s not a good proposition because of that redundancy.
Almost all of the people who said I was crazy went on to mention....EXACTLY the things I already do with our wagon and van. It was like some Jedi mind trick.
Bottom line: Small pickups are cool for their own sake , not because they make a lot of sense.
Corollary: If Ford makes this more of a genuine 4-door with a small, exposed bed (ie, not like the original Ranger) then you could capture quite a bit of potential crossover buyers. Like an Escape with a bed. It would look odd, but would make some practical sense.
jimz
> Ash78, voting early and often
03/10/2020 at 10:47 |
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I would take a compact pickup over any CUV.
jminer
> Ash78, voting early and often
03/10/2020 at 10:51 |
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I agree with you for the most part. A small pickup is a hard sell at scale which is why we had no options there for 10 years.
It is a tough comparison for someone like me though. I drive a wagon today, no kids, love the utility but there are very few wagon options now. If I’m buying a newer car in a few years I’d much rather pay $25k for a small pickup than $45 k for a new German luxury’s wagon or a 4runner.
My wife has a RAV4 which is nice, but I don’t see it being something I would want to daily.
To be clear my use cases are definitely in the minority though. For some insane reason people seem to keep buying $60k pickups and that doesn’t make sense to me at all.
themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
> Ash78, voting early and often
03/10/2020 at 10:54 |
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I know it’ll get buried at this point if I post on there, but I did want to add that for those who say “BUT WHAT ABOUT ____ BUSINESS CASES?” - keep in mind this truck would have to be a better value than not only a new, work truck trimmed pickup, but also a used pickup. Plenty of those dirty jobs buy used if they’re a small business and family owned since you can stretch your buck further. Sure, a new compact pickup for 20-25k seems nice.....but a gently used colorado can be had for the same price sooooo.....
An d let’s be real - all the people on the internet who say they’ll buy this are the same people who make a million reasons why they won’t actually buy it when it comes out.
Sovande
> Ash78, voting early and often
03/10/2020 at 10:55 |
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I would tend to disagree with you. I think the utility of a small pickup is much greater than that of a small crossover. I would argue that full size trucks are the least useful of all the vehicles currently purchased by the average consumer. Why in the world do average people need a vehicle that large? What are they hauling? What are they towing? How do you even load stuff all the way up there?
In short, Ford’s unibody small pickup will be cheap to produce, cheap to operate and will sell just fine.
OPPOsaurus WRX
> Ash78, voting early and often
03/10/2020 at 10:56 |
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i’d lvoe something that I could fit my 3 kids in the back, and either a couple trash cans or a bike with a bungee cord in the bed. turbo 5sp awd as well please
facw
> OPPOsaurus WRX
03/10/2020 at 11:02 |
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I keep telling you, Ford just needed to add a tailgate:
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Ash78, voting early and often
> Sovande
03/10/2020 at 11:02 |
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I agree on the big truck thing, but people buy them because they do two jobs — truck and family car. A small pickup only does the “truck” role, and even then it’s a bit limited. And then most buyers (in the US) see little to discourage them spending a tiny bit more for twice the vehicle. That’s the old truck conundrum.
The reason crossovers proliferate is that they do the most roles at the same time. A small pickup is such a focused concept at this phase in automotive history. I mean, if they attempt something like a Subaru Baja where it’s really just a crossover with a small exposed bed, I could see that working.
Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo
> Ash78, voting early and often
03/10/2020 at 11:03 |
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I have nothing to offer but my own anecdote.
It’s all a matter of perspective. As a childless and friendless homeowner, there’s nothing that a wagon or compact crossover can do for me when compared to a little pickup with a bigly bed.
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facw
> Ash78, voting early and often
03/10/2020 at 11:04 |
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I think it’s true that a CUV would be more useful for most cases. Of course I also think a big SUV would be more useful than a similarly sized pickup for most cases, and people still buy full-sized pickups. So who knows.
DAWRX - The Herb Strikes Back
> themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
03/10/2020 at 11:04 |
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You can even get decent 1/2 Ton and 3/4 ton (gas) pickups in that price range which are far more useful in those small business/independent contractor scenarios. Large businesses tend to buy new 1/2 ton trucks from fleet sales.
As a tiny truck enthusiast I hate to say that the more I think about it the more I realize Ash78 is correct.
Snuze: Needs another Swede
> Ash78, voting early and often
03/10/2020 at 11:04 |
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There’s one place where trucks shine, and that’s when you need to haul nasty stuff you don’t want to get in your CUV (mulch, yard waste, etc.). They are also often easier to load/unload. But, a couple years ago I looked at replacing my Cruze with a new Colorado and it’s enormous compared to the S-15 I learned to drive in. So I can see where the desire for small trucks comes from. My prediction is the new small truck will mostly tank Ranger sales.
To your point, our CUV can do a lot, and with a 4x8 trailer I can basically everything I’d want a small truck for. It’s also more practical - the trailer folds so it takes up minimal space, it was very inexpensive (well under $1000 including building a deck and sides for it, LED light conversion, etc.), my state has lifetime trailer registration and vehicle insurance covers so no recurring costs, and maintenance is almost nil compared to a truck (grease wheel bearings annually, tires every few years).
wafflesnfalafel
> Ash78, voting early and often
03/10/2020 at 11:07 |
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It’s an Outback Baja! (And that is actually a nice looking little rig...I like that new euro Focus nose.)
shop-teacher
> Ash78, voting early and often
03/10/2020 at 11:08 |
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I was one of those replies. I do think you’re wrong on this one, and that they will sell plenty of these. You’re right about the home owner part though, most of the sales will be to companies. Auto parts delivery trucks and exterminators, etc. They’re clamoring for small cheap trucks again. Those old Rangers are getting loooooong in the tooth, especially here in the rust belt.
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shop-teacher
> themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
03/10/2020 at 11:11 |
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I think they’ll sell a boatload of these little trucks to fleets. Your Napa’s and your Orkin’s aren’t going to mess about with used trucks. They’re dy ing for new small trucks.
The reason the Transit Connect did so well, is companies that wanted small vans had nothing to replace their Astro vans with for years. Now the same thing is happening for those with fleets of old Rangers. They’re getting old, and around here getting rusty.
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Ash78, voting early and often
> shop-teacher
03/10/2020 at 11:12 |
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You’re exactly right -- this will be akin to the Transit. 95% commercial buyers, 5% consumers (random guess). There is absolutely a business case for the commercial market, but the tone of the automotive press yesterday was consumer-focused.
Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
> Sovande
03/10/2020 at 11:13 |
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I share that opinion. Unless you need to haul pallets of concrete sacks, what’s the point? Put a cap on it and discover how awkward it is getting into or out of the front of the cargo area. I think vans are far more utile.
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Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
> jminer
03/10/2020 at 11:14 |
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I love wagons, but there’s no place to secure anything, and difficult to conceal.
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Sovande
> Ash78, voting early and often
03/10/2020 at 11:15 |
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But a full sized truck doesn’t really do the family thing well. You can’t pack the kids and dog in the cab and then drive for 1000 miles with your luggage uncovered in the back. You have to get a waterproof cover for the bed. A cover for a pickup bed is an absurd solution that completely negates the usefulness of a pickup.
The crossover is no longer anything other than a raised sedan or raised hatch. All the things a crossover does can be done with greater economy in a wagon or a sedan. Crossovers are a poor solution to a problem that never existed. Raising the ride height is simply a response to higher beltlines and smaller greenhouses. You have greater visibility with a higher ride height. I can’t figure out what the SUV posturing is all about. I really don’t get it. I can’t understand the benefit for a family. Harder to load, harder to park, more expensive tires and worse gas mileage. If you need a ladder to access any part of your daily driver, the fucking car is too big.
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Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
> shop-teacher
03/10/2020 at 11:16 |
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Yup. All of that. My Safari is still on the road, though in spite of extensive preventive maintenance, its teeth are getting very long. And we don’t get a lot of tinworm around these parts, as you and I have already discussed more than once.
Shift24
> Ash78, voting early and often
03/10/2020 at 11:16 |
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IDGAF GIVE ME THIS WITH A V8
But seriously though the only people who will buy these are grandpa s replacing their rusted out ranger or S10 and companies that just need a truck for hauling tools or weird stuff (like auto parts stores and Termex who i think got the last small 2dr ranger). So fleet sales
IMO the Baja didnt sell for the same reason the Ridgeline doesnt. It doesnt look like a truck. Maybe Ford can pull something like that off but it seems kind of Niche.
But I will give them credit for trying something to help their sales. Compared to GM who just seems fit to get rid of anything unique.
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OPPOsaurus WRX
> facw
03/10/2020 at 11:16 |
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Ya that's what I want right there
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jminer
> Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
03/10/2020 at 11:18 |
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I absolutely love my sportwagen - but there’s nothing else like it on the market right now. In 5-7 years when it starts to get too glitchy to keep I really do wonder what I’ll get. Likely a small truck to act as a pair to my motorcycle for when the weather is shitty and I need to haul things.
My wagon does hold more than my wife’s Rav4, but you’re right - shit is always bouncing around back there.
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shop-teacher
> Ash78, voting early and often
03/10/2020 at 11:18 |
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Of course not, they just want to say, “Hey, look, we’ve got something cheap to sell again!”
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Sovande
> Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
03/10/2020 at 11:20 |
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A van is by far the most utilitarian vehicle. And a pcikup is a great utility vehicle that has grown far too large for daily driving. They have to build ladders into the tailgate so you can even get into the fucking things. I used to be able to step up into my old Nissan and I can do the same with my El Camino. Once the fuel injection is done in that, I will be parking the V60 and driving a two door, two wheel drive small pickup as a daily.
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Ash78, voting early and often
> Sovande
03/10/2020 at 11:21 |
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A pickup with a tonneau cover is a very
popular r
oadtrip vehicle, I see them everywhere on the interstate
. Not my cup of tea (horrible handling, economy, etc). But that is how they’re used. Mindless cruising over long distances with no regard for packing light.
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Sovande
> Ash78, voting early and often
03/10/2020 at 11:24 |
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I disagree with the tonneau cover. It’s a clunky bandaid for the fact that there is a giant uncovered hole in the back of your car. I would be t hat you can put just as much crap in an SUV as you can under a 5' bed with a tonneau cover.
For Sweden
> Ash78, voting early and often
03/10/2020 at 11:35 |
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They're good trucks ash
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Ash78, voting early and often
> Sovande
03/10/2020 at 11:36 |
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True. We use a mini van. But a truck keeps it all hidden from view and not blocking your rear vision. A lot of these newer covers are pretty amazing, but I’m more of the opinion that whatever car I buy should do everything pretty well from the factory.
I like modding, but I’m not going to spend $2,000 on a cover an a bedliner just to make a truck do basic functions.
I’m also anti-truck because they feel like a ripoff for everyday consumer use. Total overkill most of the time.
CobraJoe
> Sovande
03/10/2020 at 11:37 |
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You can’t pack the kids and dog in the cab and then drive for 1000 miles with your luggage uncovered in the back. You have to get a waterproof cover for the bed. A cover for a pickup bed is an absurd solution that completely negates the usefulness of a pickup.
Unless you weld or glue the cover in place, it can always be removed. Therefore, it doesn’t negate the usefulness of a truck, it might only inconvenience you if you have to remove the solid fiberglass tonneau or cap before hauling a big load. (The most popular bed covers are roll up or fold up to eliminate this exact inconvenience ).
But a full sized truck doesn’t really do the family thing well.
Hard disagree here. It’s part of the reason why I sold my sedan and bought a full sized truck.
It’s one of the few vehicles that can put 3 full car seats across the back seat, or carry 5 large adults easily, or any combination of those scenarios. The only other vehicles that can do this are half ton truck based SUVs.
The crossover is no longer anything other than a raised sedan or raised hatch. All the things a crossover does can be done with greater economy in a wagon or a sedan.
That is not true for sedans, the cargo carrying ability of a modern sedan is atrocious . Even if the trunk is fairly large, it’s still roughly half the size of a similar crossover’s cargo area, and the trunk opening is very narrow compared to the CUV’s hatch. (Plus the rear door opening on a sloped roof sedan is extremely annoying for getting a kid into a rear facing seat.)
Wagons are comparable to CUVs, but often have a lower floor to roof distance, which affects load capacity. Plus the lower roof requires more stooping to load the vehicle.
I would always prefer the wagon, but CUVs make sense for most people.
Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now)
> Ash78, voting early and often
03/10/2020 at 11:40 |
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I’d argue that a small unibody pickup makes more sense than the current Ranger in the US market. The Ranger is dangerously close to the F-150 in size and price, while being less capable. A smaller pickup could actually create a stronger differentiation between that market and the 1/2 ton market.
In conclusion, this is why GM should resurrect Pontiac and build the goddamn G8 ST.
...wait, that’s not what this comment was about.
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CobraJoe
> Snuze: Needs another Swede
03/10/2020 at 11:47 |
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To your point, our CUV can do a lot, and with a 4x8 trailer I can basically everything I’d want a small truck for.
There are a couple advantages for a truck over a trailer: the unplanned purchase, and maneuverability while loaded.
If you ever go bargain hunting, or to flea markets, or swap meets, or garage sales, or auctions, or any other place where you aren’t sure what will be for sale, you will have to decide if you want to take the trailer or not. Drive around and park with it empty, or potentially avoid a great deal on something because you didn’t brink the trailer.
But that’s not an issue for everyone. Personally, I have no space to park a trailer without blocking a garage stall, so it’s not even a valid option for me.
DipodomysDeserti
> Ash78, voting early and often
03/10/2020 at 11:51 |
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The original Ranger did come innanfour door, but I don’t think they sold them in the US. I used to see them all the time in Tucson with Mexican plates.
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Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
> jminer
03/10/2020 at 11:51 |
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When I say secure , I mean lock it up . Like in the trunk.
My Safari is 22 years old and parts are beginning to become sparse. I just rebuilt the entire front end, but the vehicle in all is getting very long in the tooth.
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themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
> shop-teacher
03/10/2020 at 11:53 |
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I don’t know if that’s the case anymore. I mean, how many of those parts stores still exist that have a whole small fleet of trucks? Napa has about 1100 locations. Do all 1100 need 5+ trucks? 10 trucks? Online ordering and delivery is becoming more and more popular and will cause the fleets on site to shrink appropriately.
An d again, they’re still in competition with the transit connect, the promaster, the ranger, the colorado, and more. Many businesses have probably pulled the trigger on something to replace the old ranger or S-10 by now. The exterminators in my area all bought new transit vans. The Napa near me has sonics and colorados. The y probably won’t buy any time soon. In a weird way, it’d be cannibalistic for Ford to release this as it would bite into transit sales.
I’m not saying there isn’t a market, but I am saying there are other options and that market is smaller than it was before.
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Sovande
> Ash78, voting early and often
03/10/2020 at 11:55 |
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Agreed! And your minivan is obvious l y the best people moving/vacation choice available! It’s got room and covered storage and all kinds of other fun stuff and you don’t need a stepladder to ingress.
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jminer
> Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
03/10/2020 at 11:57 |
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I don’t get why people care about the difference between a hatch and a trunk like that. It’s just as easy to pop a door and hit the trunk release or lower the back seat in a sedan as to break into a wagon.
My storage area has a tarp to cover it anyway to keep things hidden, but honestly I don't usually even lock my car as there's rarely anything worth stealing other than $40 emergency gas money in the glove box.
Stapleface-Now Hyphenated!
> Ash78, voting early and often
03/10/2020 at 12:01 |
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I think I disagree with your opinion.
I am one of those who would love a small pickup, and would probably buy one too. Provided that it can return decent fuel mileage. I know it’s not going to be a Prius, but I think that they should be able to theoretically offer something that gets like 30MPG.
Maybe my use case doesn’t correlate too well with the general public though? It’s just my wife and I and our three dogs. If I needed to take the dog somewhere, I could always take the wife’s Corolla. A small truck would be perfect to me for doing the typical household stuff. I’d welcome a small truck in to the market, and would strongly consider this or the Santa Cruz.
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DipodomysDeserti
> shop-teacher
03/10/2020 at 12:04 |
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Spot on. My family’s print shop “cash for clunker’d” our old Astro van for a Transit Connect. We also had a two door, 2wd Tacoma for small deliveries.
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Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
> jminer
03/10/2020 at 12:05 |
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My sedan did me little good when I didn’t lock it and d**kbump opened the trunk with the trunk release. I always thought having the driveway well lit would make a difference. So maybe it’s personal preference, but having an actual trunk makes me feel like things are more secure. And no, I don’t see any difference between a hatch and a wagon other than cargo area length.
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Sovande
> CobraJoe
03/10/2020 at 12:09 |
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Removing a cover is an inelegant solution that necessitates storage or rolling or some other goofy solution. I used to have a cover on my El Camino that opened using shocks and gave unfettered access to the bed. It was a pain in the ass and I removed it. It was a smart decision.
I could fit three car seats in my wagon and it is a midsize. There will never be a situation for me where I have 5 adults in my car, but it could fit that many in a pinch. I have a wagon from 1983 that could hold 8 adults. Or I can fold the seats down and it will swallow a full sheet of plywood. Most pickups with 4 doors can’t do that considering they have short beds meant for carrying groceries (on non-rainy days).
The capacity argument is up for debate. You can really only pack shit as high as the bed rails in a pickup, and even then, without a cover, you need to make sure the things are tied down so they don’t blow out of the back. There are obvious exceptions to this. I have left things untied in the back of a station wagon and have yet to have an ything blow out the back. In a car/wagon/CUV you can cram shit right to the roof and it will all stay inside the car.
Stooping to load something is a feature, not a detractor. A lower load height is obviously more advantageous than a higher load level unless your car loading doubles as your workout. If I have to lift a 100 pound thing, I want to lift it to a lower level, not a higher level. So having to “stoop” to load a wagon is a ridiculous assertion.
I wouldn’t have any idea what the load capacity of a modern sedan is because who in their right mind would buy a sedan? What is the advantage? You can keep a body in the trunk and out of sight, I’ll give you that. Other than corpse storage there is nothing that appeals where sedans are concerned.
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DipodomysDeserti
> Sovande
03/10/2020 at 12:10 |
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I’ve taken 5k mile road trips with a family of four and a dog using a two door Jeep. My Tundra makes it even easier. All our stuff is water proof, so I don’t have to worry about covering it.
We need ground clearance to get to where we’re going most of the time, otherwise I’d have a wagon.
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DipodomysDeserti
> Sovande
03/10/2020 at 12:12 |
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Just helped a friend load up a Pilot for a road trip. Only way you could fit anywhere close to the amount of stuff into it as you could a 6.5’ pickup bed is if the passengers sat on the roof.
Jim Spanfeller
> Ash78, voting early and often
03/10/2020 at 12:16 |
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I love small pickup trucks because they can be useful and truck-y without making you look like a brodozer. That, and they’re 1,000% more cute and charming . Heck, before I bought my Thunderbird I was looking at trying to get an old Datsun pickup. That said, I like the older ones and probably wouldn’t consider buying a newer one.
I mean, look at this thing! Little trucks are so lovable.
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Sovande
> DipodomysDeserti
03/10/2020 at 12:21 |
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Neither of these are points that have anything to do with the fact that a modern full size pickup truck is too big to sanely use as a daily driver. People who claim they do make perfect sense are the same people who say things like “All of our things are waterproof so I don’t have to worry about covering it.” I would counter that with this: All of my car is covered so I don’t have to worry about rain. Or birds shitting on my luggage. Or parking in a garage.
Your Tundra - being the best sized truck ever built (I think I remember it is pre-2007) - is immune from these problems. You have a 7/8ths truck, not a full size and it is the perfect size for a larger pickup.
I will never understand the “but my truck can carry 5 grown men so that makes it better” argument . What are these people doing that so many grown men are riding around with them on a daily basis that they have to buy a vehicle that will hold them all? If the answer is “working” then this conversation is not for them. I get a truck for job sites and shit like that.
Cash Rewards
> Ash78, voting early and often
03/10/2020 at 12:23 |
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Ever see used Baja prices? Unbelievable
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Sovande
> DipodomysDeserti
03/10/2020 at 12:26 |
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Where is anyone going that they need to carry that much stuff with them? I went on vacation for 10 days last summer to Maine. I carried a bag called the Filson 24 Hour Briefcase and in it I had all the things I would need. My son traveled with a backpack. When we got to the rental house we ran to Walmart, bought some towels and toiletries and we left those things when we checked out. People go on road trips acting like they don’t have stores in the places they are going.
https://www.filson.com/24-hour-tin-cloth-briefcase.html#sku=11070140-fco-000971916
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Sovande
> DipodomysDeserti
03/10/2020 at 12:35 |
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Math time: 6.5 (L) x 4.2 (W) = 27.3 x 1.75 (H) = 47.8 Cubic feet (below the bed rails - assumes bed width of 50" and depth of 21" and doesn’t account for the space lost at the wheel wells).
Honda Pilot with 3rd Row Seat down = 46.8 cubic feet of storage
So I don’t agree with your assessment of the storage capabilities. Same number of seats and the same amount of storage.
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DipodomysDeserti
> Sovande
03/10/2020 at 12:43 |
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You’re right about the Tundra.
I think the same subset of people that don’t have to worry about their stuff getting wet, because it’s waterproof, are the same subset who may be driving around with five grown in their truck outside of work.
I agree that trucks make poor daily drivers.
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DipodomysDeserti
> Sovande
03/10/2020 at 12:46 |
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With four kids in the car you have to leave half the back bench up. Also, with four kids in the car, you can’t use every bit of storage space, otherwise shit will topple on them when you turn. I was pretty good at Tetris back in the day, and am an expert car packer. Like I said, I’ve done multiple 5k mile camping roadtrips with a family of four and dog in a two door Jeep.
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shop-teacher
> themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
03/10/2020 at 12:49 |
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Napa delivery trucks aren’t for consumers, they’re delivering to shops. The one by me has half a dozen trucks. They’re clinging to three old rangers, and a first gen regular cab Colorado. They’ve begrudging purchased a fullsize Chevy and a new extended cab Colorado, but they don’t really like either of them.
Yes, many businesses have moved on, but not because they wanted to, because they didn’t have any small trucks to buy.
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DipodomysDeserti
> Sovande
03/10/2020 at 12:52 |
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Can’t say I go on too many roadtrips to places with stores nearby. I once asked a coyote where the nearest Costco was, but he just laughed at me. Also, when you’re camping you have to haul shelter and water with you.
I’ve backpacked around Europe (twice) with two kids just using my pack. We know how to pack just the necessities.
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Snuze: Needs another Swede
> CobraJoe
03/10/2020 at 13:13 |
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You are absolutely right. I wasn’t trying to imply that a CUV + trailer is better than a truck, not for everybody anyways. I think in my situation it made more sense, and I think some people would be perfectly served by this combination over a truck , but as you point out there are definitely cases where a truck is better.
One thing that’s cool is my trailer folds up and stands vertically. In that configuration its about 5' wide, 6' tall and 2' deep. I can put it against the garage wall and still get a car in the garage.
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Sovande
> DipodomysDeserti
03/10/2020 at 13:15 |
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Let me ask a serious question: Why do people have 4 kids?
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Sovande
> DipodomysDeserti
03/10/2020 at 13:17 |
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Your ability to camp with 8 kids and a dog and tents and water and shit in a car meant to carry one person and a mail sack on some rural route is impressive and further emphas iz es that you don’t need a full size anything to go on a trip.
Every road trip I have been on has had a road that led to a store.
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DipodomysDeserti
> Sovande
03/10/2020 at 13:21 |
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In my experience, religion plays a factor. I snipped my boys at two. Only people I know with more than two are because they got divorced and met someone else who also had two kids.
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DipodomysDeserti
> Sovande
03/10/2020 at 13:26 |
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This is true, but the pickup bed makes it so much more convenient, and I only have two kids. Also, V8. The spot in that pic was around 2-3 hours from the nearest paved road. From the road it was an hour or so to the nearest gas station which only had snacks, and no bags of ice. They charged $1 for a cup of ice from the drink dispenser.
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Sovande
> DipodomysDeserti
03/10/2020 at 13:30 |
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You were on an off-road trip.
functionoverfashion
> Sovande
03/10/2020 at 13:31 |
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I need my vehicle to be able to haul trash to the dump, occasionally move furniture or lumber , tow small trailers , fit 4 people comfortably every day, in addition to fitting 4 people, 2 dogs, 4 bikes (or skis) and our stuff for a weekend away.
That’s why I have a FERD F-TEEN THOUSAND Volvo XC70 ( with a roof rack).
BahamaTodd
> Ash78, voting early and often
03/10/2020 at 13:32 |
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The Ford pickup is going to have 4 doors.
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Sovande
> functionoverfashion
03/10/2020 at 13:34 |
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And you, good sir, are the hero we all need.
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CobraJoe
> Sovande
03/10/2020 at 14:22 |
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Removing a cover is an inelegant solution that necessitates storage or rolling or some other goofy solution.
Inelegant does not mean it’s not useful.
But, again, most covers are able to be folded or rolled out of the way while still being attached. Tri-fold hard covers or roll up soft covers are by far the most popular options.
I could fit three car seats in my wagon and it is a midsize. There will never be a situation for me where I have 5 adults in my car, but it could fit that many in a pinch. I have a wagon from 1983 that could hold 8 adults. Or I can fold the seats down and it will swallow a full sheet of plywood. Most pickups with 4 doors can’t do that considering they have short beds meant for carrying groceries (on non-rainy days).
Can you really fit three car seats in your midsized wagon? Have you actually done this? Considering the size of modern car seats, I rather doubt that. (Also, wagons with 7 seats have been effectively dead since the mid 90s with the death of the Caprice. )
I have used all 5 seats in my truck on several occasions, sometimes even when hauling stuff in the back. Large loads do not require folding up the passenger seats, and I have loaded up a few pieces of furniture in the back of my truck while also carting the kids around.
But where does this “Crew cabs can’t carry 4x8 sheets” talk come from? Sure, the tailgate must be down, but it’s less annoying than digging splinters out of interior carpeting .
The capacity argument is up for debate. You can really only pack shit as high as the bed rails in a pickup, and even then, without a cover, you need to make sure the things are tied down so they don’t blow out of the back. There are obvious exceptions to this. I have left things untied in the back of a station wagon and have yet to have anything blow out the back. In a car/wagon/CUV you can cram shit right to the roof and it will all stay inside the car.
What is there to debate?
I’ll grant that a truck bed
isn’t always as convenient as a hatchback in some situations, but
t
rucks can carry more. Period.
Stooping to load something is a feature, not a detractor. A lower load height is obviously more advantageous than a higher load level unless your car loading doubles as your workout. If I have to lift a 100 pound thing, I want to lift it to a lower level, not a higher level. So having to “stoop” to load a wagon is a ridiculous assertion.
How good is your back? Do you really want to bend over while holding a 100 pound weight? (Seriously, that’s a great way to screw up your back).
Besides, if I’m already carrying the heavy load with both hands at waist level, the higher load floor of a CUV is much closer to the height of the load I’m carrying.
I wouldn’t have any idea what the load capacity of a modern sedan is because who in their right mind would buy a sedan?
Hence the popularity of CUVs.
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CobraJoe
> Snuze: Needs another Swede
03/10/2020 at 14:29 |
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There are times that I wish I could do the “smaller vehicle + trailer” solution, but there are other times where the truck is just too helpful.
That still sounds like too much garage space taken up for us though, we currently have 2 cars, all yardwork equipment, bikes and other outdoor toys, and my workshop in our garage, so there’s not that much additional space available .
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Snuze: Needs another Swede
> CobraJoe
03/10/2020 at 14:33 |
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Yeah, in that case even a folding trailer is going to take up a lot of garage space. I built a little shed and put all my yard stuff out there, and we don’t have kids so bikes and things aren’t an issue. I’m in the process of finishing the garage, she’s going to get one bay to park in, I’m going to leave my car outside and use the other bay as my shop. Which means it will also be trailer storage.
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Sovande
> CobraJoe
03/10/2020 at 14:51 |
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!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
I would rather lift a heavy thing a shorter distance. It’s not as though one would lift the weight up and then bend over to get it lower - you would simply not lift the weight as far. And for the record my back is the best back. It’s a great back, the strongest. You’ve never seen a back like this.
Yes, you can put a sheet of plywood in the bed of a pickup. You can also tie plywood to the roof of a Corolla. Can that plywood stay dry in the bed in the even of rain? Would drywall stay dry in the bed during a rain storm? Car manufacturers already figured all of this out in the late 60's. Wagons with extra seats and enough width for hauling stuff. Now everybody imagines they need 4wd, a V8 and 34" tires to pick up some 2x4's. Furthermore, I would never make a car purchase decision based on something I may do a few times, like carry a bunch of folks and a bunch of lumber at the same time.
I’ve already done the math above to prove that a short bed pickup can only carry about 48 cubic feet below the bed rails. So that argument is moot too. Yes, they can carry taller things. I get it.
And no, I haven’t put three car seats in any car but that’s only because I wouldn’t put three kids in there. Kids are gross. My son is the one exception to that hard and fast rule. If I had another kid they would also not be gross. Every other kid is gross. My nie ce and nephew? Both g ross.
I’m obviously playing a bit of devil’s advocate here, but the point is that most people who drive giant pickups and giant SUVs don’t need that much vehicle for 90% of the things they do. It would make more sense financially to own a smaller, more efficient vehicle and rent a big car for trips than it would to fuel one up on a regular basis. My 2015 car gets 37 mpgs on the highway which is 11 mpgs better than a 2015 F-150.
SpeedSix
> Sovande
03/10/2020 at 15:31 |
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Perhaps most people are approaching this from the wrong angle.
Up until World War II, all vehicles had good ground clearance (read- high off the ground) and were fairly upright (vertical windshields, radiator grilles, doors, etc) .
This carried over to the immediate postwar era, but the styling of cars in the 1950s moved towards an ideal of longer, lower, wider , exemplified by the 1957 Chrysler lineup and 1959 GM lineup . Did you think that cars were made lower and swoopier in the name of ergonomics and ease of use?
Earl’s aesthetic for cars could be summarized as longer, lower, wider . Like many designers of his generation, he was fascinated by aircraft design and streamlining. He was never particularly concerned with actual aerodynamics, but he was always interested in sleekness and unity of form.
As the table ( from CurbsideClassic ) shows, the 2017 Rav4, as a representation of today’s crossovers, has dimensions similar to the Plymouth of 70 years ago.
Perhaps the longer, lower, wider style of the 1950s and 1960s is the actual outlier in styling and consumer demand, and as a society, we’re moving back to the practical and upright vehicles.
J udging by the popularity of the RAV4, CR-V, Kona, and Rogue, mainstream consumers don’t all want vehicles that are too tall (F-250s, 2500s, etc.), but neither do they want something too low.
After all, people in their 50s and 60s with money to buy today’s fanciest crossovers are also aging, and getting into something too low hurts their knees.
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CobraJoe
> Sovande
03/10/2020 at 15:59 |
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I would rather lift a heavy thing a shorter distance. It’s not as though one would lift the weight up and then bend over to get it lower - you would simply not lift the weight as far.
How would you get it to the back of the vehicle? If you’re carrying it, you’ve already lifted it a certain distance, likely high enough for a CUV’s load floor.
And yes, if I can’t stand upright under the wagon’s hatch, I would have to lift the weight up and then bend over to put it into the back of the car.
But if you are lifting from the ground to the back of the car, an extra 6 inches of lift is not going to help or hurt by any significant margin. From my personal experience, I find the higher load floor to be easier on my back while loading. This matters because I do not have the greatest best back that you haven’t seen before.
Yes, you can put a sheet of plywood in the bed of a pickup. You can also tie plywood to the roof of a Corolla.
I’ve carried a bunch of lumber on the roof rack of our Volvo V50. It’s extremely handy (especially for longer pieces), but it has a relatively low weight limit of 220 pounds (which is significantly higher than a corolla’s roof with no rack .) The 2 sheets of 4x8 16ga steel I recently bought would nearly max it out, and would be harder to strap down.
Can that plywood stay dry in the bed in the even of rain? Would drywall stay dry in the bed during a rain storm?
Yes, that problem has been solved. It’s called a tarp. They come in all kinds of sizes.
Again, maybe not as convenient, but a hell of a lot more capacity and flexibility.
Now everybody imagines they need 4wd, a V8 and 34" tires to pick up some 2x4's. Furthermore, I would never make a car purchase decision based on something I may do a few times, like carry a bunch of folks and a bunch of lumber at the same time
....
I’m obviously playing a bit of devil’s advocate here, but the point is that most people who drive giant pickups and giant SUVs don’t need that much vehicle for 90% of the things they do. It would make more sense financially to own a smaller, more efficient vehicle and rent a big car for trips than it would to fuel one up on a regular basis. My 2015 car gets 37 mpgs on the highway which is 11 mpgs better than a 2015 F-150.
I get the arguments against crew cabs and CUVs. I used to be hardcore anti-CUV and anti-Crew Cab , but then we had kids and got one of each. I can understand why people like them now.
Sure, I don’t need a 4x4 V8 with 32" tires (stock size on my truck) for everyday activities, but I do appreciate the capacity when I need it. W hen I don’t need it, it drives like a modern version of a 70's land yacht, and that floaty, indestructible feeling is a positive for our crappy roads.
As for the CUV, I pushed the wife to go for a compact wagon (Volvo V50) when our sedan was getting too annoying for kid duty , and it wasn’t much better when loading them into a rear facing seat. It still required a lot of stooping with a heavy, wiggling child. We even just upgraded to a 3 row CUV, just to have a couple extra seats when my wife wants to play bus driver for family or friends.
Yes, a smaller vehicle would be much more efficient than either car, and perform 90% of our daily driving just fine, but the additional capacity is a luxury that we don’t mind paying for right now. (Especially considering that both of our vehicles together cost about as much as a mildly optioned Buick TourX.)
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Sovande
> CobraJoe
03/10/2020 at 16:31 |
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... o ur Volvo V50....
I didn’t know you were one of us. Your opinions are all correct and valid and good.
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CobraJoe
> Sovande
03/10/2020 at 16:36 |
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Had it, outgrew it, sold it. Now I kind of miss it.
Though, if I do get another one, I’m going to do some crazy driveline swap. A V8 manual RWD mini-wagon sounds like my ideal daily driver.
Captain of the Enterprise
> Ash78, voting early and often
03/10/2020 at 17:04 |
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I prefer SUVs over pickups anyway unless it’s a Ute, those are super cool to me.
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Sovande
> CobraJoe
03/10/2020 at 17:06 |
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You can bolt on about 75 hp in those cars. Makes for a fun driver.